Goblin Squad Member
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If gold does not have weight, theft can be far more extensive and so loss is greater. Cheating is harder to monitor. Growth of communities is uncontrolled (bad idea in games and in reality). Limited builds exist because everyone wants high strength, heavy armored fighters. Because limited builds exist, limited strategies exist, and the game becomes predictable.
And that happened in what game with weightless gold? Also if you mean cheating as in gold farming its a non-issue with PFO.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Ah- you won't be protecting coin, you'll be protecting raw materials as they are moved in bulk from gathering sites to processing sites to production sites to sale sites. Not only does coin not have encumbrance, coin cannot be stolen and does not require physical interaction between characters to transfer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So there is no precedence in ANY game ever to support this speculation. You can reason all you want but you have no evidence that supports it. If what you said were true it should of happened already in another game with weightless gold. Like say Darkfall.
"If infinite gold can be held by one character, a single guard can walk around unbeknownst to all with a million gold pieces and there's no trouble whatsoever. They make it from one point to another. Easy. And that guard should be strong (to cause damage and hit more easily) and wear heavy armor (to protect herself)." Assuming gold can be stolen...one guy by himself is DEAD. The fact he has heavy armor means JACK AND ALL. He is alone, he will DIE if he is ambushed by any bandit/s that know their trade. This is a fact regardless of the weight of his gold. Being alone in EvE jumping through 30 systems of open PvP space raises your paranoia levels regardless if your in a battleship or a frigate. In fact I'm always safer in my smaller ship light armor ships.
"Of course, the best fighters to use (and I give this advice freely) would be ranger/paladin who gain the basic bonus of rangers to archery then switch to paladin class so they can heal themselves (and stay paladins unless Pathfinder permits a Feat to let paladins multi-class)." Build advice for a game that isn't made with zero knowledge of the combat mechanics will even work. You're just making assumptions. If that is also advice for Pathfinder I'll stick with my Wizard, Magus, or AM BARBARIAN builds. No heavy armor and a hell of a lot of ass kicking. Oh and for my current Ranger I use a wand of cure light wounds for healing no need for multi-classing for a healing option so I'll assume you just want the other Pally tools.
"I tested this out several times in D&D games, some online, but when I tried online the people I was playing with began cheating. So I guess it's a good build!" Tested what? Playing a multi-class Pally? Began cheating how? In what? Where?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Waruko, your words are so much like a person in a panic. What, how, what, where. Why are you all of a sudden concerned? Why does my idea of gold having weight suddenly move you to inquire so deeply? Do you feel I am deep in falsehoods, scampering to steal your weightless gold?
Projecting is a terrible thing. But no, seriously, I'm asking you to be clear, cause you are not. See in a debate if one side is not making sense because they are not elaborating its considered fair to ask for clarification. Its not a sign of panic, its a sign of curiosity and interest because someone isn't being understood and the opposite party WANTS TO UNDERSTAND THEM.
Darkfall isn't Pathfinder. And limited builds do happen on MMO all the time. I'm not going to go seeking into memory and webpages and cite references for your sake. I actually do not care about a total stranger today; maybe not tomorrow nor for years to come.
But you care enough to reply...I'm touched. Also that seems a bit lazy, "I'm going to make a argument but I'm not going to trouble myself to prove its validity past, "Because I said so.""
What, how, what, where. Jeez.
"Instead of explaining how people cheated in some way that I will not mention, in game I will not mention, I will instead act silly."
Oh and if you've never played Pathfinder, I'll let you know something: a lone high level fighter can defend himself fairly well. Even against numerous bandits. Sorry, it's true.
So can a lone high level Wizard, Barbarian, Magus, Monk, Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, Samurai, Ninja, Rogue, Ranger, Witch, Alchemist, Cavalier, Gunslinger, Inquisitor, Orcale, Summoner, and dare I say it, a BARD can too. Sorry, it's true. Your point? Because last time I checked NPC bandits in a pen and paper RPG and bandits played by PC's in a computer game who will have just as much skill training and equipment as you don't function in the same way.
Now I'm sorry if you took my inquires and objections personally to be so curt in reply. I can be abrasive, I know, but if you want to get snippy I can play that game too.
So to get back on topic: Cookie cutter builds HAVE ALWAYS existed and will exist in MMO's but they have NEVER been so because of weightless gold in ANY GAME. What makes Pathfinder so special based on the limited knowledge WE HAVE ABOUT it make your point true?
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I just wanted to add that I did not like the weight of around 35 pounds for a gold bar when I played Fallout New Vegas. It was not realistic that I could carry 20,000 caps without weight but at least I could play the game and move on, at regular speed and fast travel. I did not want to have to leave it in a bank or an unguarded container where one of the primary post apocalyptic survival skills is lock pick. Then have to fast travel back and again when I find a merchant with an item I want to buy but at a price higher than I was carrying.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I thought long and hard about this issue last year. There are many pros and cons. In the end I went with weightless Coin because it simplifies things, and in a design that has lots of complexity, taking advantage of ways to simplify when they dont distract from core game functions is the right thing to do.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the idea of coin having weight, although historicaly there were plenty of ways to get around such limitations. There were coins issued who's value was not in proportion to the weight of precious metals they held. There were also all sorts of scripts and promissary notes that could be carried around in lieu of cash. Google the Fuggers or the Medici's for families prominant in such activities. In a world where magic exists, I think that would be even more common.
Although it would be cool for the game to track all those sorts of things individualy, if it complicates the design...I certainly can live with all money simply being "gold" and weightless. It's easy to rationalize that a guy carrying around 5,000 gold isn't carrying around 5,000 individual coins...thier carrying around notes that can be exchanged by the bearer for the value of 5,000 gold at any bankers guild...and who most merchants will accept as well because they are used to regularly dealing with such things in thier own commerce. YMMV.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Virgin, why do you insist to twist other people's words to support straw-men that themselves are logical fallacies? I tried giving you chance to resume the discussion at the appropriate starting point but you insisted again on childish comments and a blatant fabrication of what I was trying to claim. (Try better next time.)
What fabrication you ask? "Super-tough" bandits. I didn't use the words, super, tough, stronger, faster, or better in my last statement. Since you seem to have missed what I said I'll repeat it for you. "PC's...who will have just as much skill training and equipment as you." AKA be equal to you. Not stronger but certainly not weaker. Its just fact that if people are of equal skill the side with numeric superiority wins. "That's no bull@#$%, that's the math." And bandits that want to get PAID will ALWAYS stack the odds in their favors. Or did you actually think someone with the intent of killing and stealing from you wanted a fair fight?
Nor did I say bandits will be "jumping everyone, all throughout Pathfinder Online". Now let's follow the flow of point/counterpoint from the start on that since you seem to be unwilling to stay consistent in your argument.
(Paraphrased)
You: "Lone guy with lots of gold will be OK going from point to point because he is unnoticed and is strong with Heavy Armor."
Me: "Guard will be dead because he is alone and vulnerable. His armor does not matter as bandits will attack him en mass."
You: "Guard will be high level and will kill the bandits!"
Me: "Anything "high level" can beat "low level" your earlier emphasis on armor would be moot. Also bandits are players and will most likely be on a even footing. Numbers will win in that case."
You: "You say super bandits will attack everyone!"
Me: "Where did I say that again? Right, I didn't."
You should try EvE, you might learn something about sandbox persistent world game-play by the time Pathfinder Online comes out. No one in EvE loaded up Dreadnoughts with all their eggs into the basket to travel solo through null-sec (open PvP land). They made convoys and escort. Now with "cyno-jumps" and super freighters its a bit crazy depending on the length of the route. Yes, people in EvE travel alone all the time. But they certainly aren't carrying metric tons of ISK around if they can help it. And IF they are they plan out routes and methods to avoid pirates. Because its the smart thing to do. EvE has a feature on the map that highlights sectors by "ships destroyed in the last hour" FOR THIS REASON. They know being alone sucks and is highly dangerous.
In PFO we expect the same thing and there isn't a single charter company here that will agree with ANY plan of sending a lone man to transport lots of wealth from point A to B by himself because he is in heavy armor. Not one. Go on, there is thread with all the names of the CC's. Ask them.
So finally we are here AGAIN with the same question you will no doubt refuse to provide a answer to. What makes Pathfinder unique compared to all the games that came before it, based on the limited knowledge WE HAVE ABOUT IT, that makes your point of weightless currency true? Ryan just told you its going to happen so I guess in two years we will get a game of cookie cutter heavy armor/Str builds and limited combat tactics. That is if this was bizarro world.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When players exchange coin between themselves, it is neither created nor destroyed. When your character dies, the coin you were carrying is not lost, and it doesn't stay with your husk. It is possible for coin to leave circulation without being destroyed—for example, coin associated with inactive characters is effectively out of circulation. But should those characters return to the game, their coin will be there waiting.
I found it in the "Money Changes Everything" blog
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Goblin Squad Member
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My understanding is that when you are killed you don't drop gold. Gold is virtual and not represented by an in game object. When you die you drop what is in your inventory. That how I understand it fro the various blogs.
For his argument we are using a "what if..." but my examples use the assumption of carrying "wealth" as in dropped loot. Like say 1000 of those game time items. Much like THIS STORY. Come to think of it I didn't even include the idea of suicide bandits. Town guards be damned.
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Goblin Squad Member
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While I personally think a weightless gold as the main currency is a good thing, I think that there should be a weighted currency used by most monsters and found in most dungeons that can be exchanged for the weightless currency. Otherwise lets think of it from this perspective. You are fighting dragons or undead guarding the wealth of their horde/tombs. If those piles of treasures contain a lot of coins (As would be logical) they weigh practically nothing. On the flip side if you are fighting some form of wild beasts that drop meat, hides, bones, and other things wild animals would drop that might be of value... it will weigh a ton. And you'll need a caravan of wagons to haul all your loot off.
Loot should always be heavy, and there should always be some logistics in hauling it off. Weightless main currency with an exchangable weighted currency found in the field is the simplest way to do things so that you can easily trade ships and houses and such between players without needing a wagon as a purse or having to constantly make change, but still present logistical challenges in making off with all the uber awesome loot.
Also that would allow non-weighted cash to be non-droppable which really has a lot of benefits. While still presenting risk to people coming home with their loot, which also has benefits.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wouldn't say that loot should always be heavy, but it shouldn't be like SWG where a single person can loot an entire 10 ton animal or carry a land speeder in their pocket. I like the idea of exchange rates, currency needs to get in the game some how, and this also provides a resource sink. Maybe have the NPC towns be dynamic and reflect the amount of resources that are being converted by growing/shrinking.
One great thing about fantasy games is magic. In Sci-fi you are limited to computers and what can be deemed reasonable still leaves some gaps. With magic you can do whatever you want and make up an explanation when you are done programming the mechanics.
I would love for the game to have a central magical communications system that is accessed through rectangular pieces of light metal with rounded corners(might have to ask apple if you can use their patented design) that have a magical monotone display that functions like the Goa'uld tablets in Stargate with raized metal displays. Bam, you have a smartphone in pathfinder. And like with modern smartphones, you can transfer funds through unit to unit connections. boom, there's why money is weightless, instantly accessible and not dropped on death.(the smart-metal is 'equiped'). Also it provides a lore-acceptable (in the sense of magic, i have no idea what PF's magical constraints are) reason that people can send pm's in the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, personally I think there should be weight, but gold/currencies with extremely high circulation should be weightless if not next to that. Things like carrying around gold shouldn't be too much of an inconvenience in a game like Pathfinder Online. Games usually try to follow the Unspoken (yet written on TVtropes.org for those of you that want to look) Rule of Fun. The main thing about a game is that it should be fun.
If everyone has to worry about storing their gold and having to worry about weight, transit and other issues relating to the idea that gold is weighted and needs to be transported when moving to allow you access to those assets makes the game in a way 'un-fun'. It makes accumulating wealth tedious, which is entirely against the idea that players are adventurers who with experience gain wealth. If this was meant to be a realistic idea implemented into Pathfinder to make it feel like an entirely real world (you know, suspending disbelief of the existence of monster and magic), maybe that would be good.
Ask a question though, would you have fun carrying around gold and other things as a non-str based character. If Goblinworks did that, all casters with strength as a 'dump-stat' (should they implement stats, specifically STR and its effect on carrying capacity) would be at a distinct disadvantage to martial characters in the game.
That's my take on this anyway. It would be more fun to have everyone not worry about this, it makes the game less complex and allows players to focus on playing the game itself when they don't have to worry about how much gold they have in their pockets.
And in the case of trade goods... Well, that's another thing. Those represent gold, but should have weight, because unlike gold, you can move those to where there is high demand from areas with high supply to make profit.
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That's my take on this, guessing Dancey may be leaning toward weightless gold as well according to his earlier comment, but I just wanted to throw my opinion into the mix.