Disguise Self + Fox Shape. Can I be Any animal?


Rules Questions

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This question is specifically intended for a Kitsune that takes the appropriate Fox Shape feat. However, I suppose the same question can be asked for any creature under the effects of a Beast Shape - like spell or ability.

The main question; When using Fox Shape ( or similar abilities) to take the form of an animal (fox), can you use Disguise Self to change into any type of animal of equal size?

So, a kitsune's wearing a Hat of Disguise. One day, he decides he wants to infiltrate someone's manor by appearing to be a harmless housecat. Sadly, the Disguise Self effect of his Hat is nowhere close to capable of doing such.

So instead, the Kitsune takes off the Hat. He turns into his Fox shape. Then, he dons it once more. Now, he looks like a cute Tiny kitty, with a little ribbon (Or earring or whatever), and nobody without Detect Magic's the wiser.

Can it be done?

Edit: If it can, does the Hat of Disguise need to be removed and donned again, or can the kitsune just keep it on since it's a constant effect?

Dark Archive

Fox shape doesn't change your type, it just lets you mimic a specific type of animal, YOUR type stays as humanoid.

Since you are type humanoid when you don the hat you can only turn into another humanoid.

Grand Lodge

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You will get a better disguise bonus looking like a baby, than a cat.


Sadly, I have nothing to quote in front of me except for the SRD site...But if I'm not mistaken, it otherwise functions as the Beast Shape II spell, correct? Which really is a Polymorph effect, nothing illusionary. It lets you assume the form of a specific creature type; in this case, animal. And Fox Shape further specifies that you become a tiny Fox (with a static appearance every time the ability is used).

...So Why would this Not function?

Grand Lodge

Disguise Self works off of your type.

Polymorph spells never change your type.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Disguise Self works off of your type.

Polymorph spells never change your type.

...I have a bit of trouble believing that. Is there anything you can possibly quote or bring up, to back that up?

Everything I'm reading states that "Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type". I would assume that means that you are of That type, while the effect persists.

Grand Lodge

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Polymorph Subschool.


Yes, I'm reading that. (actually, more precisely, reading the PRD to make things a bit more official.)

I don't see any part of that that would suggest you are not the same type as the creature whose form you've assumed...

edit: Again, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd rather have a nice particular quote instead of a link =P

Grand Lodge

Nothing in there suggests it changes your type either.

You cannot change into an animal, and cast Awaken, or Animal Growth upon yourself.

This is because you are not of the animal type.


Hmm...

You know, I think I'd like to ask what the RAI officially are. Maybe we simply are interpreting the words "Assume the form of" differently.

Awaken is already out of the question Anyways, since most player characters will probably never have a permanent intelligence less than 2. But Animal Growth... Hmm...

Yes, I think I'd like to ask someone more official about that. ^_^

edit: Meant 3, not 2.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder rules are exclusive rules, if it doesn't state that it is changing something specifically then it doesn't change.

If you look at what you quoted you will say it states it changes your "form", if it intended to change your type it would have stated that.


Animal Growth wouldn't work regardless, since:

Polymorph Subschool wrote:
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

Grand Lodge

Beast Shape is not a freebie immunity to things like Dominate Person.

You type never changes.


As to the specific question being asked, Disguise Self is changing your appearance. Clearly a polymorphed creature has the appearance of its targeted form. You should therefore use the polymorphed form rather than the base form when making modifications using Disguise Self.


Logic would assume, AvalonXQ ^_^ Thank you...

Still, I think further research should be put into whether or not a polymorph effect actually does change your creature type. In my eyes, it's quite blatant; Almost All effects of a Polymorphing spell tend to discard whatever abilities that the creature had that depended on its original form, and instead grant what the changed form grants. I would strongly argue that a creature's type is dependent on its body, that a polymorph effect changes that body, and therefore they become that creature type while the polymorph effect persists.

It would be interesting to know, though. Then a polymorph effect would be able to trump anything that might detect a creature based on their creature type or subtype.

Grand Lodge

No.

The Ranger still gets his Favored Enemy bonus, even if the foe is polymorphed into something else.

You still have access to your racial specific feats, and classes while polymorphed.

Type specific spells still work on creatures, no matter what they have polymorphed into.

You type never changes. Your form does.

Not the same thing.

Dark Archive

Disguise Self cannot change your creature type.

To answer the original question, we need to evaluate if polymorph spells actually change creature type.

A kitsune looking like a fox via polymorph spells would still be a: Humanoid (Kitsune,Shape shifter) and not a: Animal (Kitsune,shape shifter).

Per the Disguise Self spell (RAW):

Quote:
You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your creature type (although you can appear as another subtype). Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person or gender.

your type is still "humanoid", Disguise self per RAW should change you to another humanoid shape. The spell does call out subtypes though, so you could look like a humanoid (Orc) or a Humanoid (elf) without any problems.

Now. in my games for the fun of it, I would allow the change to happen. But from what I read of RAW, it does not work.

Dark Archive

blackbloodtroll wrote:

No.

The Ranger still gets his Favored Enemy bonus, even if the foe is polymorphed into something else.

You still have access to your racial specific feats, and classes while polymorphed.

Type specific spells still work on creatures, no matter what they have polymorphed into.

You type never changes. Your form does.

Not the same thing.

To add to this, if you use the plant shape spell you do not gain the following immunities:

Quote:

Traits: A plant creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).

Low-light vision.
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).
Immunity to paralysis, poison, polymorph, sleep effects, and stunning.
Proficient with its natural weapons only.
Not proficient with armor.
Plants breathe and eat, but do not sleep.

In fact, there is nothing in the spell that says you no longer need to breathe. You could still drown someone using the plant shape spell. You could still dominate person them, put them to sleep, poison them, paralyze them, and stunning fist them. Their type is not "plant" but Humanoid.


May I ask where you draw the Ranger bit from? Or were you just stating that under the presumption that Form does not equal Creature Type?

(Seriously, looking for official statements here, if you've got any.)

You'll retain your classes while polymorphed, but you " lose any class features that depend upon form " ...And unless you're insisting that certain creature types cannot have classes, I don't think that's relevant anyways.

Racial Feats is a semi-decent point though... It'll be nice to know. Personally, I don't see a problem with catfolk losing "Feline grace" when it polymorphs into a baby hippo.

Regardless. Do you actually have anything from anyone official that might suggest these are the RAI?

edit: Hmm... Did not consider some of those traits.


Happler wrote:


A kitsune looking like a fox via polymorph spells would still be a: Humanoid (Kitsune,Shape shifter) and not a: Animal (Kitsune,shape shifter).

And that, just to clarify, is what the argument is Currently about. If that changed, then Disguise Self would work as desired here.

The Kitsune doesn't just look like a fox; he Is a fox. he is in the form of a fox, gains scent, and all that. It's not an illusion working off another illusion, it's an illusion working off of a new form; Which I would argue is another creature type.

Which is currently being debated... and I'd love if someone pulled out some quotes from someone official to support either side, else I think I'm going to go ahead and ask JJ.

Grand Lodge

No. He just takes the form of a Fox.

He is not a fox, and is not treated as such for spells and effects.


He is the thing your actual type in Pathfinder does not change, unlike 3.5. In PF you only change forms.

polymorph rules wrote:
You cannot change your creature type (although you can appear as another subtype)

Animals and humanoids are different creature types. The disguise self spell specifically works off of your creature type.

The kitsune is also not actually changing into a fox(an animal).

The following will explain why:

Kitsune wrote:


Kitsune: Kitsune are humanoids with the kitsune and shapechanger subtypes.

Change Shape (Su): A kitsune can assume the appearance of a specific single human form of the same sex. The kitsune always takes this specific form when she uses this ability. A kitsune in human form cannot use her bite attack, but gains a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to appear human. Changing shape is a standard action. This ability otherwise functions as alter self, except that the kitsune does not adjust her ability scores.

Note that kitsunes are (humanoids) which means they are not animals. Change Shape does not change your type.

Below is the evidence.

Quote:
Change Shape (Su) A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category smaller or larger than its original form. This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature's description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics). Unless otherwise stated, it can remain in an alternate form indefinitely. Some creatures, such as lycanthropes, can transform into unique forms with special modifiers and abilities. These creatures do adjust their ability scores, as noted in their description.

Note that as listed above polymorph spells do not change your type, so because Change Shape follows the polymorph rules the creature type is not changed.


Just a note, Concerro; This was about the Fox Shape feat, which is "otherwise functions as beast shape II". It is Polymorph effects changing creature types that was currently under question, nothing else.

And fine. I hope no-one minds, I'd like to ask JJ this directly to see how it turns out, and then post the answer here. I'm sorry, but in my head, a creature's Form is the equivalent of their body, which is equivalent to the source of their creature type. So, rather than argue it further, I'd like to ask how it was intended to function and be done with it.

edit: I'm not sure what you're quoting, but it's not polymorph =P Probably disguise self.


concerro wrote:
polymorph rules wrote:
You cannot change your creature type (although you can appear as another subtype)

That's from the Disguise Self spell, not the polymorph rules.

But again, reading the Disguise Self spell as a whole, I stand by my ruling that the Diguise Self spell alters your appearance, not what you actually are.

So if you are polymorphed and therefore appear as an animal, Disguise Self can make you look like a different animal of similar size.


Fair points.

Polymorph, magic chapter wrote:


A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature.

At no point does the polymorph rules allow you to change creature type.

All they do is change your shape.


AvalonXQ wrote:
concerro wrote:
polymorph rules wrote:
You cannot change your creature type (although you can appear as another subtype)

That's from the Disguise Self spell, not the polymorph rules.

But again, reading the Disguise Self spell as a whole, I stand by my ruling that the Diguise Self spell alters your appearance, not what you actually are.

So if you are polymorphed and therefore appear as an animal, Disguise Self can make you look like a different animal of similar size.

Your creature type is still human so the spell would not work if you tried to appear an another animal, or an animal at all. You only appear to be a fox in this case.


Form, rather *

And Aye. Nowhere does it state that your creature type changes under a polymorph effect. Frankly, I was taking that as a given, since it pretty much changes your body. Higher level polymorph effects do the job significantly better... But you still have an entirely new body, for the duration of the effect.

Since it's being argued that it is not, in fact a given, I'm posting this on the rules forum to see if anyone can bring in some quotes that explicitly support or deny it. Since it seems the only proof that it doesn't happen is that it is stated nowhere that your creature type changes, I'm asking JJ on his thread now just to clarify whether it's intended or not.

It would suck that, if you were somehow permanently polymorphed into a drow, you would still detect as a half-elf.

It would be questionable, that if you took the form of an angel, you somehow gain an angel's resistances.

But really... Not being able to Disguise yourself as a cat, when you have the ability to permanently polymorph yourself into a fox? I find that silly.


Bane Wraith wrote:

Form, rather *

And Aye. Nowhere does it state that your creature type changes under a polymorph effect. Frankly, I was taking that as a given, since it pretty much changes your body. Higher level polymorph effects do the job significantly better... But you still have an entirely new body, for the duration of the effect.

Since it's being argued that it is not, in fact a given, I'm posting this on the rules forum to see if anyone can bring in some quotes that explicitly support or deny it. Since it seems the only proof that it doesn't happen is that it is stated nowhere that your creature type changes, I'm asking JJ on his thread now just to clarify whether it's intended or not.

It would suck that, if you were somehow permanently polymorphed into a drow, you would still detect as a half-elf.

It would be questionable, that if you took the form of an angel, you somehow gain an angel's resistances.

But really... Not being able to Disguise yourself as a cat, when you have the ability to permanently polymorph yourself into a fox? I find that silly.

The rules are silly at times, but you must remember that changing creature type changes a lot of things about your character on a fundamental level. Those advantages are what made polyporph so hard to deal with in 3.5 so PF removed the verbage that said the creature type is changed. The way the rules work, they must specfically say you can change creature type. You can go ahead and ask JJ. I will try to locate dev posting. Check back in a few minutes.


I found it.

Quote:

Stardust is correct. Polymorph spells do not change your type.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


Wow. o.o

You really did find it...

Here's my quote:

James Jacobs wrote:
Bane Wraith wrote:

Pardon, sir JJ ^_^

When a creature undergoes a Polymorph effect, by spell or otherwise, to become a new type of creature... (Say, a humanoid to an animal)... Does their Creature Type change as well, for the duration of the effect?

For example: Can a Kitsune, that uses Fox Shape (otherwise behaves like Beast Shape II), then use a Hat of Disguise (or Disguise Self by any other source) to appear as a different type of animal? (say, a cat)

Edit: shouldn't say 'For Example'... just one example that relies on a change of creature type to function by RAW. Other more iportant examples would be the use of different Traits granted by creature type...

That seems like a good assumption to me. Especially since Pathfinder spells are weirdly resistant to the concept of using magic to disguise yourself as specific people...

...further questioning now.

Grand Lodge

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Bulmahn is a developer.

Jacobs is not.


Jason is the head rules guy, and James often goes with the rule of cool.

With Jason saying the creature type does not change but only the form does and with disguise self going off of your actual type then Jame's idea, which I would allow is still not legal.

If you are the GM I would say allow it. If you are the player then let him know that James thinks it is ok, and he might ignore the rules.

Creature's are broken down into subtypes which disguise self does allow. The problem with Kitsune and appearing to be a different animal is that you must actually be an animal first before disguise self can do what you want it to do.

edit:James also has no bearing on the rules. He will tell you that.


Bulmahn's word is thus assumed to trump that of Jacob's?


Bane Wraith wrote:
Bulmahn's word is thus assumed to trump that of Jacob's?

For the rules yes. SKR, and Jason are the main rules guys. James handles Golarion and the development of flavor(story side of the game).


concerro wrote:

Jason is the head rules guy, and James often goes with the rule of cool.

With Jason saying the creature type does not change but only the form does and with disguise self going off of your actual type then Jame's idea, which I would allow is still not legal.

If you are the GM I would say allow it. If you are the player then let him know that James thinks it is ok, and he might ignore the rules.

Creature's are broken down into subtypes which disguise self does allow. The problem with Kitsune and appearing to be a different animal is that you must actually be an animal first before disguise self can do what you want it to do.

...I wouldn't assume that's what Jason's saying. Jason only said that it was a good assumption. Which I'm seeing refers to the assumption that because your form changes, your creature type does as well.

...Again, waiting for a response.

edit: WOW. Ignore this paragraph completely. I'm sorry. I got JJ and Jason completely mixed up.

For the sake of people that probably already quoted me, not deleting this... but... Yeah. Sorry for the mixup.

Grand Lodge

JJ states he is not a rules guy in his "Ask James Jacobs" thread.

Grand Lodge

Polymorph spells do not change your type.


James is like having a good friend lawyer friend offer advice. He might really know his stuff but he isn't always right. Jason on the other hand is more like the supreme court handing down a ruling -- it might get overturned later but until it does you stand by it.

Not to say I don't appreciate James' word and time on things, he offers really good advice, just that if it comes down to a JvJ thing I'm going to go with the head developer.

However Paizo really tries hard to avoid such inconsistencies when it can and keep everyone on the same page.

Grand Lodge

JJ does give some good advice.


Bane Wraith wrote:
concerro wrote:

Jason is the head rules guy, and James often goes with the rule of cool.

With Jason saying the creature type does not change but only the form does and with disguise self going off of your actual type then Jame's idea, which I would allow is still not legal.

If you are the GM I would say allow it. If you are the player then let him know that James thinks it is ok, and he might ignore the rules.

Creature's are broken down into subtypes which disguise self does allow. The problem with Kitsune and appearing to be a different animal is that you must actually be an animal first before disguise self can do what you want it to do.

...I wouldn't assume that's what Jason's saying. Jason only said that it was a good assumption. Which I'm seeing refers to the assumption that because your form changes, your creature type does as well.

...Again, waiting for a response.

Jason specifically said "Polymorph spells do not change your type."

That is not an assumption. That was a copy and paste, not me paraphasing. I even had a link in the last post. How is that not what Jason said?

As for James admitting he is not the rules guy-->Click me and then click the "save space" spoiler


Read the edit. I apologize for not catching my own words sooner but I completely mixed the two up, in that quote. ^_^;;

And alright. Thank you, Abraham... I trust your words more than most ^_^

Thank you Concerra for the quote...

I guess that ends the debate. By RAW, the Disguise Self + Fox Shape does Not function.

Reason: Creature type does not change, when using polymorph spells.


I saw the edit. I thought I had replied to it. In any event it is ok. :)


It really bugs me that kitsune don't count as foxes since they basically are... I kinda wish they had Animal as a type too, but I guess that wouldn't work...

Grand Lodge

Kitsune are foxes in the same way a Cockatrice is a chicken.


Haha!

We could have ended this debate so long ago...

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/creatureTypes.html#an imal

PRD wrote:
An animal has an Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal)."

How's that for closure? Kitsune could never disguise himself as an Animal using Disguise Self... Because the Kitsune is too Intelligent to technically be an Animal!

Ha!

...Okay, I had my fun.


Bane Wraith wrote:

Haha!

We could have ended this debate so long ago...

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/creatureTypes.html#an imal

PRD wrote:
An animal has an Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal)."

How's that for closure? Kitsune could never disguise himself as an Animal using Disguise Self... Because the Kitsune is too Intelligent to technically be an Animal!

Ha!

...Okay, I had my fun.

I thought you were trying to ask about changing creature types as general question and apply it to the Kitsune. :)


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I was, friend. It just strikes me as hilarious that Even if it worked that way, and one Could gain the Animal creature type through a polymorph effect, you'd probably never be able to simply because, according to the PRD, You can't have an intelligence greater than 2, and have that creature type.

It's just painfully laughable. If I showed this to my GM, he'd probably just grow this wry smile, allow it to happen, then announce "You now have an intelligence of 2 and only vague memory of your humanoid life."

Ah... the irony.


Bane Wraith wrote:

I was, friend. It just strikes me as hilarious that Even if it worked that way, and one Could gain the Animal creature type through a polymorph effect, you'd probably never be able to simply because, according to the PRD, You can't have an intelligence greater than 2, and have that creature type.

It's just painfully laughable. If I showed this to my GM, he'd probably just grow this wry smile, allow it to happen, then announce "You now have an intelligence of 2 and only vague memory of your humanoid life."

Ah... the irony.

LOL.


I still disagree with the interpretation being used for Disguise Self.

The language of the spell is clearly in reference to your current appearance -- up to a foot taller or shorter, fat or thin or in between. So clearly a Kitsune in the form of an eighteen inch long fox could not use Disguise Self to look like a six-foot orc or even a three-foot gnome.

Instead, a creature whose current appearance is of a tiny animal should be able to alter their appearance to any other tiny animal, regardless of their "real" size and type.

Grand Lodge

That's why you can take the appearance of a baby with out heavy penalties.

This combo works, just not the way you thought.

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