What does wisdom damage FEEL like?


Rules Questions


In an upcoming game I am going after my players sanity and I have a few questions about WIS damage.

1. What should WIS damage feel like?

2.If a character breathes in insanity mist do they instantly start making poorer decisions?

3.Does the character notice that they are being effected?

4. At what rate will a WIS score replenish?

(BTW the specific mechanics I am using are Raktavarna venom and Insantiy Mist)

Sczarni

1. It feels like being drunk without the pleasant parts. At 0 WIS that's the only thing you can feel.

2. It probably wouldn't be noticeable that quickly, and manifests more in misjudging distances, misunderstanding social cues, and the like.

3. No.

4. I believe this one's in the CRB-- I want to say one point per night of rest, but I'm not sure.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

It should feel like inability to make any decision, because you can't understand the ramifications.

Below Wis3, you're basically paralyzed by complete indecisiveness.

A lower and lower Wis score would be like every situation is brand new to you, and you don't have the experience or understanding to make a good decision.

THink about the first time you got behind the wheel of a car. Now pretend instead that's a 747.

You think, I can drive a car, but a jumbo jet?!? You'd be paralyzed, afraid you'd only make the decision worse.

Now, apply that attitude to 'taking a step forwards'.

That's a low, low wisdom. Everything you do is an experiment in fear and confusion.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32

I think it'd feel like losing your mind. Almost every secondary statistic (divine spellcasting, Perception and Sense Motive skills, Will saves) derived from Wisdom has everything to do with how one perceives either: 1.) reality, or 2.) others.

Lose your Wisdom and you lose your ability to perceive. Doubt, madness, a failure in your ability to trust your senses or make sense of your surroundings (including other creatures). If an incredibly high Wisdom indicates enlightenment and heightened perception, then a 0 Wisdom score should "feel" like the opposite of that: oblivion. Wisdom damage should feel like the progressive loss and distrust of your own physical and metaphysical senses.

Daron Woodson
Abandoned Arts

Sovereign Court

1. I would imagine that the little voice that tells you something you are about to do starts getting quieter and quieter. Things that would have seemed foolish would seem more valid.

2. As there is no onset listed, it should be instantaneous. Additionally, they need to roll saves every round for 6 rounds until they make a single save, taking 1d3 pts of Wis damage for each failed save.

3. That is a good question. I would think the lower one's wisdom goes, the less likely they should be able to notice.

4. Ability damage heals at the rate of 1 pt/day/ability affected or 2 pt/day/ability affected if you have complete bed rest. Ability drain, however, can only be cured via Restoration or similar magic.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.
4thecause wrote:

In an upcoming game I am going after my players sanity and I have a few questions about WIS damage.

1. What should WIS damage feel like?

2.If a character breathes in insanity mist do they instantly start making poorer decisions?

3.Does the character notice that they are being effected?

4. At what rate will a WIS score replenish?

(BTW the specific mechanics I am using are Raktavarna venom and Insantiy Mist)

1) Like you're Blond

2) See one.

3) See one.

4) Hair dye.

spoiler:
Someone had to say it. :)

Sovereign Court

Have you seen anyone using antidepressors ? And having altered reactions ?

I guess that would be pretty close.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32

Are you saying that blondes have Wisdom damage, Dark_Mistress?

If so; where do redheads stand on the Dark_Mistress spectrum 'o Wisdom?

Daron Woodson
Abandoned Arts

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Some good posts.

I'd add it can also feel like exhaustion. You can see all the pieces of the puzzle, but can't put them together. Were that girl's eyes blue or brown? Did I hear a tremor in his voice when he told me where the bad guy was? It's not memory (that's usually associated with intelligence) it's analysis.

I'd say over time, someone who has lost wisdom is going to 'remember' what it's like to make checks he now fails. When reminded of what colour the girl's eyes were, he'll see them clearly. When ambushed by the trap he'll remember the quaver in the guy's voice.

There's also the willpower issue. If Wis is defense, then that defense is going to have holes. It's like being in a fuzz.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Read about twenty forum threads where people are arguing over the most situational, min/max rule items.

That feeling in the pit of your stomach? That urge to grind your teeth down to powder? The descending gloom of the realization that you have just had the fun and zest sucked right out of you?

Wisdom damage.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Abandoned Arts wrote:
Are you saying that blondes have Wisdom damage, Dark_Mistress?

Something like that.

Quote:
If so; where do redheads stand on the Dark_Mistress spectrum 'o Wisdom?

Slightly below normal, their fiery temper gets them into trouble sometimes. Brunettes with brown hair is average of course and Brunettes with black hair have high wis scores, in fact we tend to just be high stat wise across the board.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32

My raven-black mane and I agree with you wholeheartedly, of course.

Daron Woodson
Abandoned Arts


It feels exactly like when you close the double pane sliding doors to the back yard and realize that you forgot something and walk right into the double pane clear sliding doors. It feels like that, stupid. Yeah, that's it stupid.

:(

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Feels good man.


I've always felt that Wis damage/drain is like going nuts. At first it may just be mild (can't focus as well, less observant), but when you start getting really low you may hallucinate or babble incoherently, you become increasingly impulsive and unable to control your actions. I'd imagine it would be difficult to collect your thoughts, and to process incoming information. Common sounds, sights and feelings might be interpreted as any number of other things, and could be frightful or uncomfortable. Your own thoughts might even seem foreign to you. The normal thoughts that spark or prevent actions may be experienced as someone else speaking to you. Your imagination, previously checked by both subconscious and conscious efforts runs away with you. Maybe you start singing, or acting out a play, or jumping with fright at every sound, touch and sight.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Drugs deal wisdom damage.


I think what Lamontius and Aelryinth are descrybing is Charisma damage.

It could manifest in all sorts of ways. Feeling drunk, feeling feverish, headaches, halucinations... Anything that makes it harder to make perception and sense motive rolls.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

I removed some real-world politics. Flag it and move on, please.

Grand Lodge

Like reading these forums...

Boom! SICK BURN!


4thecause wrote:
In an upcoming game I am going after my players sanity and I have a few questions about WIS damage.

1. What should WIS damage feel like?

-That dpends on the nature of the effect causing it, such as poison, spells, etc. Aside from that, you know the feeling when you know what something is, and its on the tip of your tongue? Maybe like that when it starts. I think that when it is very low, one would have a difficuly time distinguishing between one object and another, and would become gullible. One's ability to be an a#@%~@! remains unaffected though.

2.If a character breathes in insanity mist do they instantly start making poorer decisions?
-That depends on how the player role-plays. The DM would be going to far to force the character to do so.

3.Does the character notice that they are being effected?
-I think so, if it happens quickly (see #2). If it was a point less every morning you woke up then maybe not.

4. At what rate will a WIS score replenish?
-Read the entry for the Heal skill.


1. What should WIS damage feel like?

I'd imagine a light-headedness coupled with an increased apathy/giddiness. I doubt it's either pleasurable or painful, but it might depend on the description of how the attack works.

2.If a character breathes in insanity mist do they instantly start making poorer decisions?

You'd probably have to alert the players if you want them to start acting on it, but for the character I imagine the effects start taking place within a round, unless the poison/mist states otherwise.

3.Does the character notice that they are being effected?

If they have a really high Wisdom they probably would, especially after making a couple strange decisions - otherwise I'd imagine not.

4. At what rate will a WIS score replenish?

I think there are already rules for this.


it feels like touching a rainbow.
(which you can only do when being drunk like an irish).


4thecause wrote:
In an upcoming game I am going after my players sanity and I have a few questions about WIS damage.

OK, I will have a crack at this:

4thecause wrote:
1. What should WIS damage feel like?

It is not necessarily indecisiveness, more an inability to understand ramifications, and a great suggestibility. Read the most outrageous tabloid you can, and no imagine that every word of it comes across to you as gospel truth. Imagine you have ADHD, or otherwise a minuscule attention span. That's what a low wisdom is.

4thecause wrote:
2.If a character breathes in insanity mist do they instantly start making poorer decisions?

Their decisions will be more related to the here and now, more impulsive, less thought out. They can still be clever, but they can become a pretty dumb smart guy. They get 'tunnel vision' - imagine you just woke up, are still half-asleep and have an important task to do. Nothing else matters, including putting your pants on.

4thecause wrote:
3.Does the character notice that they are being effected?

No. What you use to recognise that you have a problem is the thing that is damaged. People suffering depression have this problem in that they often do not realise that they are ill. That's why if you have friends acting strangely it is important to get them to a doctor, because they do not necessarily know something is wrong. All their actions are perfectly reasonable from their point of view.

4thecause wrote:
4. At what rate will a WIS score replenish?

Depends on the means, but if a means does not specify otherwise all ability damage by default repairs at one point per day, two if you are resting fully. In the case of drugs, you get the points back when the drug wears off.


Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

Definitely an inability to perceive things properly. A character can go indecisive ("I can't figure out if this is a good or a bad thing to do, so I will spend more time trying to figure it out"), or impulsive ("I don't see any downsides, let's go!").

I generally play slightly low Wis characters as the latter (or try to); hot-headed, brash, unlikely to think things through. They take risks, even if they're intelligent enough not to; they have the smarts, they just don't use them.

Once you get pretty far down on Wisdom, you're going to start not being able to tell what's real and what's not, eventually lapsing into a catatonic state at 0 Wisdom.

18 Wisdom: lots of common sense, unlikely to be fooled by mundane tricks.
10 Wisdom: pretty typical; sometimes you're fooled, sometimes you're not; sometimes you take silly risks, sometimes you don't.
8 Wisdom: substantially more likely to take those unnecessary risks ("hey, it seemed like a great idea at the time").
6 Wisdom: frequent, low-grade hallucinations; easily distracted by shiny things, likely to leap before looking.
3 Wisdom: barely coherent; drifting in and out of awareness.
0 Wisdom: catatonic per the rules. At this point you can't tell dreams and hallucinations from reality, to the point where you simply cannot take actions. You basically can't even tell what your own body is doing.

The character should not, in my opinion, notice anything significant in Wisdom damage until they start getting hallucinations. They may notice that their decisions are becoming more impulsive, but that's noticing the effects of the damage, not the damage itself. And if they study whatever affected them, they can identify the effects that way.

Players, obviously, should be informed. After that, it's up to the players to roleplay the effects. You can certainly give them guidelines on how you expect Wisdom damage to affect a character, but don't require the player to roleplay that. Just encourage it.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

It's not abilty to 'perceive', its the ability to understand what you are perceiving.

You might well still notice the guy in the shadows...and completely ignore him, because you don't think he's a threat.

You are confronted by decisions, and simply can't choose between them, or are able to make sound judgements. Taken another way, you have no 'experience' to fall back on, which makes you a sucker for everything...and possibly willing to commit a mistake, because you think it might be different this time!

Charisma damage is about motivation and force of personality. Charisma damage would be draining your emotions and drives away, leaving you a flavorless shell that in the end wouldn't be motivated to do anything at all, paralyzed by apathy. You might be able to parrot the correct words, if you have skill ranks, but behind them would be emptiness...it would be like hearing someone recite a conversation in boring tones back to you, saying the 'right things' in a bland way.

==Aelryinth


What would be the Wisdom check DC to notice a change in your own Wisdom?


Aelryinth wrote:

It's not abilty to 'perceive', its the ability to understand what you are perceiving.

You might well still notice the guy in the shadows...and completely ignore him, because you don't think he's a threat.

The perception skill would like to have a word with you. Realistically, it's an interesting theory, but I don't think it's in line with the game mechanics.


VRMH wrote:
What would be the Wisdom check DC to notice a change in your own Wisdom?

The first part of your wisdom you would lose is your ability to assess your own wisdom.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

psychicmachinery wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

It's not abilty to 'perceive', its the ability to understand what you are perceiving.

You might well still notice the guy in the shadows...and completely ignore him, because you don't think he's a threat.

The perception skill would like to have a word with you. Realistically, it's an interesting theory, but I don't think it's in line with the game mechanics.

If something is in your line of sight, you see it, but you may/may not place importance upon it.

That tree might be a tree. It could also be a black willow. You notice the tree. It takes a Perception check to understand it could be something more.

That camoflaged guy could be sitting there crouched in plain sight. You definitely see him, but he's camoflaged, you don't spot the differences/variances that differentiate him from his background. So, you ignore him. The details are too much for you. he blends into the background with the rest of the data that is overwhelming you.

Hallucinations are not needed when you just can't process the environment the way someone with an eye of what to watch for can do.

==Aelryinth


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Alzheimer's.

:(


People with good wisdom know themselves, trust their own judgments (which are reason-based versus emotion-based), have learned from life experience to create healthy modes of behavior/thinking, have learned to recognize when their own behavior/thinking is counter-productive and accept they can do better, when confronted with adversity are more likely to act instead of react as well as handle the stress better, accept their own mistakes instead of looking for others to blame- without destroying their self-esteem, etc., etc.

People with poor wisdom often make judgments based on emotional reaction, don't perceive the world as a place they can navigate without help, don't learn from life experience- learn behaviors/thinking that may be less damaging to self-esteem (because they may not have a lot to start with) but counter-productive long-term, they doubt themselves and their perceptions of the world around them (or do not doubt, but act on faulty perceptions/beliefs), they see themselves as victims, etc., etc.

Low wisdom would probably equate to a borderline personality disorder... very low wisdom could be a full-blown personality disorder or mental illness.

Dark Archive

just watch the TV shoe "Honey Boo Boo" and you'll see


Doesn't look like anyone touched upon what taking WIS damage would feel like, as in the initial immediate sensation (though I might have missed seeing it). Suppose you're trying to get somewhere in a building, but you have your mind on something else, and you end up taking a wrong turn somewhere. That brief instant when you realize you aren't sure where you are (regardless of whether you can figure it out afterwards) -- that's what I would think it might feel like. And afterwards, not necessarily any lingering feeling, unless it was a significant amount of damage, perhaps. You may realize you're affected in the same way you realize you're tipsy or drunk.

Just my take on the matter. I'm now thinking of what it might be like to experience other forms of ability damage. Trippy.

Liberty's Edge

I've always described it to my players as "Suddenly, you feel like making terrible life choices!"


You know low wisdom may well be like being drunk - you get overconfident rather than indecisive.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

or, to put it another way, you make poor choices that you would wisely avoid if not drunk. :)

==Aelryinth


I describe it as feeling kind of numb and distanced from the world. the colors loose their brightness, all sensations dull down, somehow you seem to care less and feel disconnected from the world. A lot like some people with depressions describe their problems.


Kalridian wrote:
I describe it as feeling kind of numb and distanced from the world. the colors loose their brightness, all sensations dull down, somehow you seem to care less and feel disconnected from the world. A lot like some people with depressions describe their problems.

That's a bit like ASD as well, at least in the detachment and tunnel vision way.


I would describe it (taking the damage) as feeling disoriented and uncertain- possibly suddenly nervous and worried something is wrong... losing confidence and ability to think with clarity... overwhelming emotion and disconnection from reality.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Hmm, since it's loss of perception, would you even notice the damage? :-)

Scarab Sages

There's a really cool scene in the book "Wise Man's Fear" by Patrick Rothfuss where the main character inadvertently drinks a potion that completely kills his ability to make social/emotional decisions and he practically turns into a sociopath with aspergers for a few hours (his friends notice it before he does and manage to sequester him before he does something too stupid). You'd have to read it to get the full effect, but I think that it's a very good illustration of what wisdom damage would be like.


Matthew Morris wrote:
Hmm, since it's loss of perception, would you even notice the damage? :-)

My point exactly, in fact you may think that nothing is wrong - or worse, think that things are going great, you can take on the world!


Dabbler wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
Hmm, since it's loss of perception, would you even notice the damage? :-)
My point exactly, in fact you may think that nothing is wrong - or worse, think that things are going great, you can take on the world!

This is why people who are ragingly drunk still get behind the wheel of a 2,000 pound vehicle.

BTW don't do that. I don't want you to kill someone I love.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / What does wisdom damage FEEL like? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.