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So I'm stuck in a bit of a conundrum here, trying to figure out what I want to do with this character I'm making. I love fire spells, and upon discovering the Fire Elementalist wizard and the long list of fire spells that I didn't know about from various sourcebooks, I was overjoyed.
The problem now becomes, what should I do with this knowledge?
I want to make a fire-based caster, but I'm not sure whether I should go with an elven wizard or a gnome sorcerer.
Here are the pros and cons of each:
Wizard
Pros-
Int is a better score than Cha
Wizards get early spell level access
The Dancing Flame elementalist power is freaking awesome
Wizards have the potential to know more spells, allowing me to possibly learn every fire spell I want if I can find the scrolls
Elven Magic- bonus to spell resistance penetration
Cons-
Spell knowledge is completely DM dependent, while a sorcerer actually knows more spells than the wizard if there are absolutely no scrolls or spellbooks available
Fewer spells per day
Must prepare alternate spells in order to deal with energy resistance/immunity
Spellbook can be targeted, and then character is useless (This happened to me and I was reduced to having two spells for two entire sessions, since then I have never listened to anyone who claims a wizard's spellbook is not a weakness).
Sorcerer-
Pros-
Pyromaniac- Bonus to caster level and produce flame as a spell-like ability
Varisian Tattoo for free as a Tattooed Sorcerer, +1 extra CL with evocation, for a big bonus (3d4+3 with burning hands at 1st level)
More spells per day
More damage per spell (Red Dragon bloodline arcana power, and increased caster level from Pyromaniac and Varisian Tattoo)
Can spend one spell known on lightning bolt and instantly be able to switch strategies against any fire-immune enemy.
Cons-
Bloodline powers are all pretty bad
Slower movement speed
Slower spell level access
Fewer skill points
What do you guys think?
Also, if anyone wants to, I'd like some basic suggestions for the build. I have a 20 point buy, and no score is allowed to be below 8 after racial adjustments. Starting level is 1, no evil alignments. The rest of the party is a paladin, a summoner with a serpentine eidolon, and an archer ranger going into Horizon Walker.
I have no interest in being versatile. All of my spells known and spells per day in either build are going to be dedicated to setting things on fire or otherwise blasting them to hell.
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You suggest that I take human for the bonus feat but...is it really worth its weight in gold? Here's what I get for going human, including what I would lose as a gnome:
+4 to Initiative checks
-1 AC
-1 to attack rolls
-4 to Stealth checks
+1 to CMB and CMD
1 fewer languages
1 additional skill point per level
1 fewer hit point per level (bonus to Cha, but losing bonus to Con)
+2 Strength, and all that it gives to a sorcerer
-1 penalty to my caster level with fire spells since I don't have access to Pyromaniac
+10' speed
...Yeah, I think I'll stick with gnome. That bonus feat isn't as nice as people think it is, at least not for every build. There's only so many feats you can qualify for at first level.
Still, I guess sorcerer is the better option with the improved damage. I'll go with that.
You also gain the Human Sorcerer favoured class option, which is an extra spell known. At every level. 20 additional spells known total, if you take it at every level.
:V
Granted, though, this bonus spell can be of any level apart from the highest level you can cast -- so for your first 3 levels you'd be better off with the HP, instead of additional known cantrips.
If your GM does let you stack crossblooded orc/draconic then if you pick human you can get spell focus (evocation) and spell specialisation and cast burning hands at CL 4 at level 1 for 4d4+8 to each person in the cone.
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I made a half-orc Brass Draconic bloodline Sorcerer character who took the trait that adds +1 Caster Level to one spell (Fireball, naturally). The other trait was the Highlander trait to give Stealth as a class skill.
One of the most useful spells was casting Extend Spell and Elemental Spell (fire) on Acid Arrow, and using a rod of Silent Spell to cast it from Stealthy concealment.
Ranged Touch attack to very long range. No spell resistance, no save.
Does 2d4+2+4 damage per round, at 9th level, for 8 rounds. On average, that's 88 hit points, which is enough to roast anything that isn't using d10 hit dice at the same level.
As an added benefit, whatever you hit is now on fire and screaming. Makes a great signal for the rest of the party that you're in position.
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Granted, though, this bonus spell can be of any level apart from the highest level you can cast -- so for your first 3 levels you'd be better off with the HP, instead of additional known cantrips.
If you do pick the Human Sorcerer favored class option, the effect applies each time you level. You can't choice to pick the +1 hp or 1 skill point once you pick a favored class option.
Favored Class Options
The following options are available to all humans who
have the listed favored class, and unless otherwise stated,
the bonus applies each time you select the class reward.
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Crossblooded is terrible. You lose a spell known per spell level, which means, since the sorcerer only knows one spell of the highest level at 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, and 18th level, that your spell level progression is actually delayed again, putting you a full 2 levels behind the wizard. It's definitely not worth it in the slightest for a small damage bump.
The dipping and then going straight admixture is a powerful idea, but my DM wouldn't approve of that. He likes builds to be about the character, not about the statistics.
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Some people like the numbers to meet the concept.
Sometimes multiclassing is what makes this possible.
Does your DM disallow multiclassing?
Does he want to build your character?
Has he considered Pregens?
Does he know flavorful and strong can exist in the same PC?
The line you're looking at Secane about being unable to change is picking the actual favored CLASS, as the non-bolded part of what Bruno quoted states. You get to choose your favored class BONUS every level; the racial options just give you something else to pick from. Hence the "each time you select the class reward" line in your quote.
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Some people like the numbers to meet the concept.
Sometimes multiclassing is what makes this possible.
Does your DM disallow multiclassing?
Does he want to build your character?
Has he considered Pregens?
Does he know flavorful and strong can exist in the same PC?
Multiclassing, absolutely. Dipping? Not a chance. Not unless it's to qualify for a PrC like Eldritch Knight, and that's only because it would make sense for someone to have martial training in order to be a gish.
A crossblooded sorcerer is born with an extraordinary amount of magical power tied to his bloodline, and yet...it wouldn't get any stronger as I leveled. No, instead I would choose to research my own magic, and while other sorcerers gain their power automatically, mine doesn't advance at all. Why? I dunno, apparently my powers are diluted by my study in a book or something. Though they do come out to reinforce my wizard abilities (even though that magic isn't tied to my bloodline at all).
Yeah, I can see the look on my DM's face if I presented a build like that. He'd arch an eyebrow at me and say "Really?" and not accept the character at all. I mean, the guy was hesitant to allow in my two-handed fighter before, because I was dealing 2d4+9 damage per hit (with Power Attack) at level 1.
And before anyone tells me to leave the group, this guy is my best friend and he's also a terrific storyteller, and he's running this game as a favor to me. So I'm willing to lower my optimization a little bit to meet the level of power he wants from his players.
And before anyone tells me to leave the group, this guy is my best friend and he's also a terrific storyteller, and he's running this game as a favor to me. So I'm willing to lower my optimization a little bit to meet the level of power he wants from his players.
Great attitude IMO.
I mean, the guy was hesitant to allow in my two-handed fighter before, because I was dealing 2d4+9 damage per hit (with Power Attack) at level 1.
I'm confused. This is what I expect a two-handed Fighter using Power Attack to dish out. Heck, I'd expect more than that... why 2d4? Small sized greatsword? Medium scythe? Other weapon I'm not familiar with? Or is it a typo and should be 2d6? 9 bonus damage... +2 from Power Attack, so 7, STR+1/2 that equals 20 STR, about what I'd expect a 2H Fighter to have using rolled stats or 25 Point Buy. Possible on 20, though a bit stretchy and will require at least one 7 dump, I think.
I guess your GM is just used to a lower-power game than I am. I really just have no advice for that.
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Here are the pros and cons of each:
Wizard
Pros-
Int is a better score than ChaCons-
Bloodline powers are all pretty bad
Slower movement speed
Slower spell level access
You should consider the Sage Wildblooded Bloodline. It gives easy access and use of metamagics (which is a big plus for an evocation sorcerer) and your main stat is Int and not Cha (thus you get more skill points).
You should consider playing an Oracle of fire if you want a blaster. I know it seems weird, but my friend played one and it was unruly. YOu get most of the good fire spells (no scorching ray tho) and you get to wear medium armor! Burning hands doesn't seem so dangerous now that you've got armor class. Not to mention you're also a support because you can heal. Sound burst was a great spell he used as well.
Mostly what makes the flame oracle hurt so bad compared to wiz or sorc is the burning magic revelation. Every time an enemy misses it's save it takes burn damage for 1d4 rounds equal to the spells level. Also the 11th level revelation and wings of fire are pretty excellent as well.
so just stack spell focus evocation and elemental focus fire and bump your dcs sky high and you will burn everything to the ground. It won't have the utility of a wizard, but it's a support and a burn so I think you should consider. HOpe this helped :)
Well, I've always liked the Admixture Evocation Wizard for my blasting, but that's in part because I like being able to hold out for being a little versatile with my spell-casting.
My recomendation to you is to go Half-Orc Sorcerer, and take the Primal Elemental Bloodline for Fire located here.
I don't think you need to go the Human route because you don't need the versatility of its favored class option for Sorcerers. Instead you'll gain +1 point of damage/die when you cast fire spells as your bloodline arcana and +1 point of damage/2 levels from your favored class option. You gain an elemental ray which will actually allow you to do something fire-related at 1st - 3rd levels when actual spells are hard to come by...
The bonus for Summoned Monsters is nice too - you summon Fire Elementals and send them in all buffed up and then pour the AoE fire damage in right on top of them.
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I like half-orcs, but my last character was a half-orc barbarian, so I'm going to try and broaden my scope a little bit. I'm still new to this whole PF thing so I'm trying to play as many different styles as possible. Gnome is one of the few races I haven't given a shot yet.
The Primal Elemental Bloodline, on the other hand...yes. Yes, that will do nicely. *grins evilly*
@Malleus- That's a great suggestion, but I actually played a Fire Oracle already. It was awesome, but now I'm trying to see how the sorcerer matches up. I found that list of cool fire spells in the Fire Wizard's section (like campfire wall and firefall) and I want to try those out instead of the standard scorching ray and fireball stuff.
You should consider the Sage Wildblooded Bloodline. It gives easy access and use of metamagics (which is a big plus for an evocation sorcerer) and your main stat is Int and not Cha (thus you get more skill points).
I like it, but I think I'm going to go with Primal Elemental instead. It just looks so nice and it gives me a nice couple of fire powers.
I'm confused. This is what I expect a two-handed Fighter using Power Attack to dish out. Heck, I'd expect more than that... why 2d4? Small sized greatsword? Medium scythe? Or is it a typo and should be 2d6? Other weapon I'm not familiar with? 9 bonus damage... +2 from Power Attack, so 7, STR+1/2 that equals 20 STR, about what I'd expect a 2H Fighter to have using rolled stats or 25 Point Buy. Possible on 20, though a bit stretchy and will require at least one 7 dump, I think.
Falchion. Two handed weapon, 2d4, 18-20/x2 damage. 18 Str (6 damage with a two-handed weapon) plus Power Attack (+3 damage for a two-handed weapon).
I'm confused. This is what I expect a two-handed Fighter using Power Attack to dish out. Heck, I'd expect more than that... why 2d4? Small sized greatsword? Medium scythe? Or is it a typo and should be 2d6? Other weapon I'm not familiar with? 9 bonus damage... +2 from Power Attack, so 7, STR+1/2 that equals 20 STR, about what I'd expect a 2H Fighter to have using rolled stats or 25 Point Buy. Possible on 20, though a bit stretchy and will require at least one 7 dump, I think.Falchion. Two handed weapon, 2d4, 18-20/x2 damage. 18 Str (6 damage with a two-handed weapon) plus Power Attack (+3 damage for a two-handed weapon).
Ah yes. Forgot it was -1/+2 in PF for one-handers. Okay.
Your highest damage potential blaster depends on where you're targeting your blast potential. Orc/Draconic crossblooded Pyromaniac Gnome wins the average damage battle until ~level 12 vs the Orc/Draconic crossblooded Half-Orc with the fire damage favored class bonus (+1 CL avg +5.5 damage with crossblooded vs flat 1/2 per level). Maximizing damage is really going to come down to the race for the relevant Ioun Stone, Varisian Tattoo and Spell Specialization.
I can assure you, however, that the bonus damage from crossblooded is well worth the cost as it is extremely scalar.
Not dipping i still would play an admixture wizard for a blaster, being able to swap the element type for your most effective spells is worth it imo.. But i guess theres always elemental rods.. Have you considered playing an Ifrit? 4 Charisma bonus from race is nice if your playin a fire based guy..
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Not dipping i still would play an admixture wizard for a blaster, being able to swap the element type for your most effective spells is worth it imo.. But i guess theres always elemental rods.. Have you considered playing an Ifrit? 4 Charisma bonus from race is nice if your playin a fire based guy..
That could be interesting. I already know the main enemy in this game is going to be an efreet, so playing a genie-blooded might make for some good roleplaying potential.
Not dipping i still would play an admixture wizard for a blaster, being able to swap the element type for your most effective spells is worth it imo.. But i guess theres always elemental rods.. Have you considered playing an Ifrit? 4 Charisma bonus from race is nice if your playin a fire based guy..
Ifrits definitely seem the way to go if you're playing a Primal Fire Sorcerer - just depends on whether or not your GM will allow it. It certainly fits the theme and you can play her/him as a complete pyro-maniac.
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I'm confused...you stated that you had no interest in being versatile, yet every one of the things you mention (with the possible exception of Pyromaniac, and let's be clear...you aren't getting "-1" to your caster level, you just aren't getting "+1") deals with doing things other than slinging fire.I took your statement, "I have no interest in being versatile.", to mean that skill checks, languages, and every other non-fire-slinging aspect of your character were tertiary considerations, at best.
If that isn't the case, you should clarify or quantify your specifications in order to get the advice you're looking for.
+1 to hit, +1 to AC, and +1 hit point/level are all very relevant to any character, fire-slingers included.
And +1 caster level is more valuable than a feat slot. It has the same power level as a feat (Varisian Tattoo), except it stacks with that feat. More damage early is way better than Improved Initiative.
Lorekeeper is a good trait thatll bump cl and dc for 3 spells of ur picking...
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You overestimate the value of Pyro. It's only on fire spells, which means you're locked into elemental. If you're goal is to do the most damage human orc bloodline, with spell focus evok and spell specialization is going to be better than pyro in the short and long run.
My goal isn't to do the most damage. It's to be a completely fire-based character. More fire damage is nice. Spell Specialization is too narrow, though. I want to be able to cast geyser on one enemy and firefall on the next and then drop a delayed blast fireball on a group, perhaps followed by a sirocco.
@Bruno Kristensen, Orthos, blackbloodtroll
Ah! I see. Guess my game group has been getting that part wrong for some time.
Thanks for the clarification! :)
No prob. I got hung up on that for a while myself back at the beginning.
Oops, sorry the trait is called loreseeker...
Lore Seeker: The secrets of an ancient fallen civilization intrigue you, particularly the magical traditions of its highly mystical culture. You've studied magic intensely, and hope to increase that knowledge by adding ancient lore. You've come to the region to pursue that study, and chose the town as your base because it was out of the way of bigger cities—meaning less competition to study the ancient monuments in the region, you hope! You gain a +1 trait bonus on Knowledge (arcana) checks, and Knowledge (arcana) is a class skill for you. If you cast arcane spells, pick three spells on your spell list. You are particularly adept at casting these spells, so they function at +1 caster level when you cast them, and their save DCs (if any) gain a +1 bonus
Some might consider it a bit broken for a trait... Magical Lineage is another good one for this build..
Lore Seeker has the problem that any decent DM will probably enforce the fact that if you can't cast it, you don't get a +CL boost. So, you'd be forced into taking it at later levels to get the CL boost on the spells you really like, and blow a feat on two traits.
This is especially important since this is a trait of learning, as opposed to many other traits which are flavored as innate ability.
Nice trait, however.
==Aelryinth
Would the OP like to see the standard blaster build for a caster for these boards? I have a copy of the post I spin out for the times questions about a build come up.
==Aelryinth
Lore Seeker has the problem that any decent DM will probably enforce the fact that if you can't cast it, you don't get a +CL boost. So, you'd be forced into taking it at later levels to get the CL boost on the spells you really like, and blow a feat on two traits.
This is especially important since this is a trait of learning, as opposed to many other traits which are flavored as innate ability.
Nice trait, however.
Do you mean if you can't cast the spells at the time that you take the trait you can't select them as options? I always assumed, in terms of IC OOC character growth, that you got traits before you got classes.
I'd be a bit annoyed if my DM did this to me, but I have to admit this trait is one of the best traits I've seen so I can understand that line of reasoning.
@OP: Would your DM let you dip Wizard for Admixture power to turn all your spells into fire spells with the [fire] descriptor?
EDIT: Oh, it's a RotRL campaign trait. That explains why it's so good.