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One of the GMs who runs games for me has been disappointed at how easy the scenarios are. The combats in game have been lasting two rounds on average and not really posing a threat to the players. The fact that it's over so quick is hurting his fun as a GM. What can be done to help him out and find some scenarios that the players can't just steamroll
Also he had a question about creative solutions, does it count as a creative solution if one player stealth into a room and sees monsters and then has the rest of the players avoid the encounter?
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Your query leaves waay too many unanswered questions to answer it correctly.
-How experienced is the GM in question?
-How experienced are the players?
-How thoroughly is the GM preparing the game? Does he have a plan on how best to use spells, the environment, etc.?
-Are the players extreme optimizers/power-gamers?
-How balanced is the party mix of the players?
-What season scenarios are being played?
-What tier range is being played?
There are soo many factors that effect the challenge of the scenario, it can be difficult to determine without direct observation what can be improved. I have seen a lot of GMs who considered themselves good, but they just were not all that competent with tactics, especially when solo encounters give the players a huge advantage with economy of actions.
As long as the stealth rules are being applied properly, sure, avoiding an encounter entirely is smart play, especially if defeating said encounter does not necessarily, directly impact the success of the mission. Of course, that could leave "baddies" to join in future encounters. It also means that the players might miss out on some loot or even a faction mission that might exist in the environment of the avoided encounter. Again, this is hard to answer without more details.
Late season three and season four scenarios are widely considered to be more challenging than most older ones, although, there are some notable exceptions. These are often regarded as challenging scenarios from previous seasons.
The Devil We Know series
#31 Sniper in the Deep
#39 The Citadel of Flame
2-03 The Rebel's Ransom
The Heresy of Man Series
2-20 Wrath of the Accursed
2-21 The Dalsine Affair
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The question your GM should be asking is "Are the players enjoying themselves?" If they feel like they have accomplished something by avoiding a fight, then try to put it in context. There are lots of GMs out there who have felt a short-term sense of satisfaction after leaving the PCs crushed and broken on the battlemat. Those same GMs have found that after a few sessions of like outcomes, the player stop returning to the game.
His concerns are valid, I'm not trying to minimize them. I often feel the same type of frustration with players who aren't approaching the game the way that I personally prefer that it be done. I have to remind myself (and I re-learn this lesson all the time) that if the players are enjoying themselves, then I am doing my job correctly. I sometimes have to sacrifice my own needs as a GM to feel like I have challenged the players in order for this to happen. So tell your GM to not take things personally. If the same players are coming back week after week to kill those doomed monsters, then he is doing his job right.
To console myself as a GM, I try to throw a little psychology into it. Many players of this game face a lot of real challenges in their lives. They may not want to be challenged in the game. Maybe what they need is to feel powerful and in control of something. Using a character's abilities to dominate a scenario can be very satisfying and a good way to release stress. So again, realize that the game can be larger than it appears. Put it in that context for your GM and see if he feels any better about the apparent lack of challenge.
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... Many players of this game face a lot of real challenges in their lives. They may not want to be challenged in the game. Maybe what they need is to feel powerful and in control of something. Using a character's abilities to dominate a scenario can be very satisfying and a good way to release stress. So again, realize that the game can be larger than it appears. ...
This.
When I find players steamrolling through an adventure, I'm mostly concerned that I may not be running the adventure as intended. Did I miss anything? If I can assure myself that I am running the adventure properly, I actually enjoy seeing the players revel in their power.
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First let me apologize for the multi-quote, it's annoying but it'll make my life easier.
The question your GM should be asking is "Are the players enjoying themselves?" If they feel like they have accomplished something by avoiding a fight, then try to put it in context. There are lots of GMs out there who have felt a short-term sense of satisfaction after leaving the PCs crushed and broken on the battlemat. Those same GMs have found that after a few sessions of like outcomes, the player stop returning to the game.
His concerns are valid, I'm not trying to minimize them. I often feel the same type of frustration with players who aren't approaching the game the way that I personally prefer that it be done. I have to remind myself (and I re-learn this lesson all the time) that if the players are enjoying themselves, then I am doing my job correctly. I sometimes have to sacrifice my own needs as a GM to feel like I have challenged the players in order for this to happen. So tell your GM to not take things personally. If the same players are coming back week after week to kill those doomed monsters, then he is doing his job right.
He's not looking for the players to be crushed and broken on the battlemat, he's looking for more back and forth. He doesn't want a tpk but he doesn't want everything to be steamrolled over. He's looking for the middle ground where the players have fun and he has fun.
And I'd like to point out he is a volunteer, it's not a job. I don't want him to have to sacrifice his own enjoyment in order for others to have fun. That's not fair to him, and it's not fair for anyone who GM's to have to give up having fun.
There has to be a way for everyone at the table to have fun, I can't willingly ask him to GM for me if I'm going to have to tell him to suck it up and sacrifice his own fun for others.
To console myself as a GM, I try to throw a little psychology into it. Many players of this game face a lot of real challenges in their lives. They may not want to be challenged in the game. Maybe what they need is to feel powerful and in control of something. Using a character's abilities to dominate a scenario can be very satisfying and a good way to release stress. So again, realize that the game can be larger than it appears. Put it in that context for your GM and see if he feels any better about the apparent lack of challenge.
I can't put thing in that context for him because I'm sure he has real challenges in his life as well, and I'm not going to tell him that he can't have a release from his real life because other people need one. I don't pay him for this, he volunteers because he likes to run games for people. He just want to enjoy it as much as the others do.
Now I probably seem a little ungrateful for your advice, but I'm not. I myself feel the same way you do about when it comes to myself as a GM. And while I am personally willing to sacrifice some of my fun at time for others, I can't ask someone else to do that. It's not fair to him.
-How experienced is the GM in question?
He's new to running pathfinder, judges LFR all the time.. About 5 scenarios in for PFS. I haven't had a chance to sit at his table yet but when he's in doubt of a rule he asks questions and when he preps a scenario he ask the questions he thinks will come up.
-How experienced are the players?
Varies, most are new to Pathfinder and not very optimized. He hasn't really had to deal with anyone who really optimizes yet.
-How thoroughly is the GM preparing the game? Does he have a plan on how best to use spells, the environment, etc.?
He does prep well and he is sometimes iffy on spell use. Mostly he sticks to the tactics as it's PFS. He's well versed enough to wonder why the tactics aren't always the best for the creature.
-Are the players extreme optimizers/power-gamers?
Nope they're about average. With a few that are a bit below average.
-How balanced is the party mix of the players?
Varies. Generally a mixed a range and melee. Usually a caster as well.
-What season scenarios are being played?
-What tier range is being played?
He has ran, Mist of Mwangi, Echoes of the Overwatched, Icebound Outpost, Goblinblood Dead, and Rise of the Goblin Guild.
There are soo many factors that effect the challenge of the scenario, it can be difficult to determine without direct observation what can be improved. I have seen a lot of GMs who considered themselves good, but they just were not all that competent with tactics, especially when solo encounters give the players a huge advantage with economy of actions.
Yeah, I really do need to sit down and play when he rubs a scenario to see how it goes. From what I observed when I watched him run and wasn't busy was that he was keeping up with the scenarios tactics. For good or ill.
As long as the stealth rules are being applied properly, sure, avoiding an encounter entirely is smart play, especially if defeating said encounter does not necessarily, directly impact the success of the mission. Of course, that could leave "baddies" to join in future encounters. It also means that the players might miss out on some loot or even a faction mission that might exist in the environment of the avoided encounter. Again, this is hard to answer without more details.
See that was really his question. If they stealth to avoid a fight should they still get the gold and item access. I'm not even sure myself because Creative Solutions says they should if get the access if they are able to creatively avoid a fight, but peeking into a run and avoiding a fight doesn't seem as creative as what those rules imply.
Late season three and season four scenarios are widely considered to be more challenging than most older ones, although, there are some notable exceptions. These are often regarded as challenging scenarios from previous seasons.
The Devil We Know series
#31 Sniper in the Deep
#39 The Citadel of Flame
2-03 The Rebel's Ransom
The Heresy of Man Series
2-20 Wrath of the Accursed
2-21 The Dalsine Affair
Thanks I'll take a look at some of those and see which ones I can have him run.
Wow, way too long of a reply.
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I haven't played enough scenarios yet to have an overall opinion of combat in PFS, however, I kinda feel his pain. There have been a few scenarios that where a majority of the encounters were just easy steamroll deals (5 PCs vs 2 skeletons? Really?) I don't have a super good suggestions since scenarios are to be fun as written. With Adventure Paths, I often add additional foes if I feel the party is steamrolling past the encounters.
For those of you who feel that the scenarios should be easy because players want to relax... WELL, that comes under the heading of knowing your players. The majority of players I have run with preferred combat where the combat is challenging and the dice are rolled in the open (even though that tends to end in more lethality). For those players, the very real risk of death and/or failure heightens the excitement of their successes.
Of course, PFS can't really take individual players' tastes into account. Further, the authors pretty much have to presume that the minimum party size is running it, and that the party isn't well balanced. That means that if your group consists of a bunch of friends with character classes that complement each other well, and have some teamwork feats, I'm sure they're going to have an easier time than the run of the mill random group.
For a contrasting point of view check out this post.
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What can be done to help him out and find some scenarios that the players can't just steamroll?
I would remind him/her that, depending on party make-up, what may be a breeze for one group may be a slug-fest or even a TPK for another. I would say that the later half of season 3 and so far season 4 are some of the on average tougher scenarios out there.
Also he had a question about creative solutions, does it count as a creative solution if one player stealth into a room and sees monsters and then has the rest of the players avoid the encounter?
Sounds creative to me. Along these lines, he needs to remember that the bad guys do not live in a box. If the players do something creative that gets the bad guys off script. He should try to adapt and overcome. If possible using their tactics, but so often, players will pull the bad guys out of the reasonable application of their base tactics.
If a bad guy's tactics says he fights to the death it doesn't have to mean that he stands in one place batting for the fences while being pounded and flanked by six players having their way with him. In these cases the GM is allowed to be creative using all the means at his disposal, while exploring a variety of circumstances and all within the tactics of the bad guys - "Fights to the death."
