Wizards...I don't see them around.


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CRobledo wrote:
Jonathan Cary wrote:
Then one of our con organizers has a bloat mage
Just need one more level :D

Bloat mage?

Also, ran my first ever PFS adventure tonight. There were 2 wizards (out of a party of 7, see elsethread). 2 Gunslingers, a Magus and a Rogue were the majority of the rest of the party, and my cleric who spent most of the time unconscious. <.<

*

Bloat mages are cool. Though they can be dangerous. If they roll bad on their blood surge they go into a rage and attack everything(including allies) around them until they die.

****

Honestly losing scribe scroll is not a big loss. Free spell focus is pretty amazing at first level, if it does wean a bit due to the feats wizards can pick up as they level. You can purchase any scrolls you want, and paying full price isn't so bad, especially using prestige to pick up scrolls.

I will say that if you can see a wizard, that wizard is doing it wrong. Wizards go around invisible, and only choose to leave that comfort zone if they have a damned good reason for it. They can summon and cast haste while still invisible. Then they can hit that BBEG up with a crazy SoS after their improved familiar ill omen's the poor bastard.

1-5 is rough for wizards because most wizards are built towards dominating levels 7-11, not 1-5, but as mentioned, you can easily optimize for earlier, it will just pay less dividends later.

*

Agree. Free Spell Focus opens up a lot of options that wouldn't normally be available. Spell specialization is a very popular choice. You could even take Greater Spell Focus, if you are so inclined, at level 1.

***

Mage tattoo also to have your spec seplls all casted at 1 high caster level.

I think spell focus is awesome for wizards. The big issue with casters doing less damage is there are less damage increasing feats for magic then for non-spell combat. You rely on meta magic and caster level so if you can save a feat in your progression.


I think wizards are better at burst damage, where melee is typically better at sustained.

People all too often seem to relegate casters to the role of 'buff support' but I don't think that's really necessary, at all.

***

Wizards are better are area of effect damage. Burst damage a fighter trumps a wizard greatly still. A 20 foot radius fireball hitting multiple creatures will outdamage the fighter, but sudden spikes of damage the fighter is second to the magus.

Plus the wizard has utlitiy spells that can be game changers. Being able to fly, haste, detect, and tons of others things make them extremely usefull. With 0 level spells I stop atleast one ambush a scenario. My last one I mage handed a sheet through the door to draw readied actions so valeros could charge them freely.


Nice idea, Finlander. Unfortunately, not all GM's are going to allow that, for one reason or another. =P

I suppose it depends on your definition of spike damage? Sure, lower levels the fighter will continue to win out. Casters have ALWAYS been late game finishers, though.

Take Disintegrate. At 11th level (soonest a wizard can get it) it's 22D6. Without modifying the caster level.

Damage range;

22-132

Mid range;

77

Attack rolls needed? 1, touch.

Throw on true strike? Blammo. That's a spike damage, to me.

Furthermore, it just gets nuttier. Casters have more insta-kills, by far, than fighters. =P

Again, I'm not saying that over the course of 5 rounds a wizard's damage will be consistent with a fighter's. Which... is sort of sad, to me, really. On the other hand, that 77 damage could very well finish off whatever the fighter was dealing with, and clear him up for his next target.

***

DM can cheese things all they want. If the attacks did draw the readied actions I would have spread the sheet out to get concealment then drop it when I wanted. So I planned for that too.

Yes casters have save or suck spells. Those are not really burst damage. but they end the fight right away. My 8th level gnome with a 25 dc colorspray you need to save 3 times and lowers your level 9 for the effects of it has done on many occasions. Ask that Dalsine guy.

A bow fighter will own that for damage pretty easily. 5 hits with like a +21 damage each one if I remember right without rolling a die. trumps it. Granted the last attack is much harder to connect with. Throw boots to haste you 6 attacks two at highest bab.

I would also not be surprised if someone comes on here and says I did nto do enough damage for it. Cause I bet a fighter buffing the attack similar to your turn of true strike can give obscene amount of damage.

Thats why my blaster wizard adds status effects. If I slow and entangle that bow fight he gets one attack.

Sczarni ***

I just got access to the Wayang boon and genned a Shadow School Wizard with it. With the !!8!! Binding Darkness-es I'm gonna get a day at level one, I have NO REGRETS about not going Sorc.

Grand Lodge ****

I don't think Wizards are underpowered. My admixture wizard is a blast.

I usually start up with spells like Darkvision (communal), Protection/Resistance from Energy (communal), Haste and such. Then you see me unload spells like elemental specific evocations, area denial spells like Black Tenacles and Obsidian flow.

I do pretty good for my party. Both buffing and hammering the bad guys.

Liberty's Edge *****

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Squonk wrote:
I just got access to the Wayang boon and genned a Shadow School Wizard with it. With the !!8!! Binding Darkness-es I'm gonna get a day at level one, I have NO REGRETS about not going Sorc.

I have one and he's been a lot of fun to play. I just hit level 9 and entered the Loremaster prestige class. Don't ignore the stealth skill. Even without it being a class skill, it should be respectable.

If the Black Company series taught me anything, it's that sneaky wizards are to be feared.

*****

Robert A Matthews wrote:
Bloat mages are cool. Though they can be dangerous. If they roll bad on their blood surge they go into a rage and attack everything(including allies) around them until they die.

My bloatmage is now Lvl 10 (wizard 5/Bloatmage 5) and she is a blast to play. It is almost impossible to actually go into a rage (assuming you know what you are doing and don't do it recklessly) and Shattared Star book 3 opened up a magical item made specifically for bloat mages that is awesome!

She now also has a Lyrakien Azata that does most of the talking for her, as she has horrible charisma. The best part is being able to cast so many high-level spells in PFS, since scenarios are usually quite short.

Sczarni ***

Will Johnson wrote:

Don't ignore the stealth skill. Even without it being a class skill, it should be respectable.

If the Black Company series taught me anything, it's that sneaky wizards are to be feared.

LOL, way ahead of you, I took Highlander as one of my traits!

*

CRobledo wrote:
Robert A Matthews wrote:
Bloat mages are cool. Though they can be dangerous. If they roll bad on their blood surge they go into a rage and attack everything(including allies) around them until they die.

My bloatmage is now Lvl 10 (wizard 5/Bloatmage 5) and she is a blast to play. It is almost impossible to actually go into a rage (assuming you know what you are doing and don't do it recklessly) and Shattared Star book 3 opened up a magical item made specifically for bloat mages that is awesome!

She now also has a Lyrakien Azata that does most of the talking for her, as she has horrible charisma. The best part is being able to cast so many high-level spells in PFS, since scenarios are usually quite short.

I have a lvl 8 Bloatmage (Wiz 5/ Bloat 3) and I agree. The only time a Bloatmage will rage is if the player doesn't know hat they are doing, fails to achieve simple addition, or does it on purpose. I never run out of spells, especially if you specialize in low lvl spells that have use throughout level play. I love my Bloatmage, though finding an appropriate miniature for a 400lb elf caster is very difficult.

Shattered Star....Bloatmage Goodies....EXPLAIN!

*****

Lab_Rat wrote:
Shattered Star....Bloatmage Goodies....EXPLAIN!

minor shattered star spoiler(not any worse than additional resources):

If you look at additional resources this little item was noted as legal for PFS play: fortifying leeches

Here is the text of the item!

So, +2 Con PLUS roll bloat dice twice PLUS get Blood Points back! It was a bloatmage's dream come true!

On the minis thing, I use this gorgeous lady mini for my bloatmage. For a male one, there is always this one.

Liberty's Edge *

My wizard just hit level 10 the last time I played him (in 'You Only Die Twice'). I can see why there aren't many people playing this class.

1) Magic can be confusing at times.

2) If there aren't others playing the class, the chances of you finding a spell-book on an NPC is almost non-existent. I've been playing since last September and I've only seen TWO scenario's in which there was a spell-book players could learn from.

3) Wizards probably have the slowest build up mostly in part due to the fact they have to prepare spells, and in some situations you don't always have the time to "prepare".

However, I REALLY enjoy playing the class, although sad that I don't see others in my local lodge; until recently. And then while attending a convention, I finally ran into another player who had a wizard.. and they didn't even know that the class had a spell book. They picked "what they thought that character would know", which was also frustrating.

But in spite of all of this, you will never hear me say I regret making a Wizard and playing him! I focused on crowd control primarily, with some damage thrown in. Some people will enjoy this particular class, others won't. People might not be disappointed if they try the 'crowd control' route rather than damage.

***

I think crowd control is great for wizards. Summoning monsters with acadame graduate as a standard is powerful.

I think wizards unless speced for damage would be disappointed when they see the raging barbarian come in very attack and do massive damage.

Liberty's Edge *

As I've told other players.. take the time to do some research. Don't just read the class description, but take the time to look through the spells said class is capable of casting.

Seeing the spells might give players ideas for characters. The elementalist archetype is interesting too. I might be making a water themed wizard who might be similar to my current one, but more damage focused.


You might also consider reading some of the guides out there on how to make 'effective' wizards. Though, most of those end up being 'optimized' wizards.

All the same, they can at least spark ideas for your own play. Just remember, pump your DC's as high as possible, but have an assortment of spells with a variety of DC's for different enemies, if possible.

The Exchange ****

Archers and 2-handed weapons are what do damage in pathfinder, sometimes summoned creatures, but mostly those other two.

Here's a thing that's cool about wizards. Optimizing them doesn't shut down the game. If fights aren't hard, you simply don't have to cast more spells.

If you have an optimized Zen archer, it's generally wise for people to simply stand behind you, while you kill everything and have too high of AC/saves to get hit by anything. This can detract from the fun of others.

Wizards can make everyone else better, making everyone have more fun, AND STILL BE OPTIMIZED which is cool :)

I like optimizing characters, it's fun for me. I like wizards because optimal wizard play actually enhances what other people can do, so everyone is having a good time!

now sleet storm, black tentacles, stinking cloud, acid cloud. Is no fun for your party, but that isn't really an effective use of your spell slots, when Slow will probably debilitate the enemies enough that your party can just crush them all while feeling superior :)

Liberty's Edge ***

Benrislove wrote:
If you have an optimized Zen archer, it's generally wise for people to simply stand behind you, while you kill everything and have too high of AC/saves to get hit by anything. This can detract from the fun of others.

Step One: Stoneskin

Step Two: Ice Storm (no save, no evasion, NO NOTHING).

Repeat step 2 till said archer is a puddle of goo.

Grand Lodge ****

Cormac O'Bron wrote:
Benrislove wrote:
If you have an optimized Zen archer, it's generally wise for people to simply stand behind you, while you kill everything and have too high of AC/saves to get hit by anything. This can detract from the fun of others.

Step One: Stoneskin

Step Two: Ice Storm (no save, no evasion, NO NOTHING).

Repeat step 2 till said archer is a puddle of goo.

Too bad no bad guys have Rime Spell too. entangle for the win as well. And alternate with Volcanic storm and/or Obsidian Flow

The Exchange ****

Cormac O'Bron wrote:
Benrislove wrote:
If you have an optimized Zen archer, it's generally wise for people to simply stand behind you, while you kill everything and have too high of AC/saves to get hit by anything. This can detract from the fun of others.

Step One: Stoneskin

Step Two: Ice Storm (no save, no evasion, NO NOTHING).

Repeat step 2 till said archer is a puddle of goo.

Adamant weapon blanch on 10 arrows is only 100 GP. My zen archer has 20 ^_^, plenty to kill a wizard.

I'm pretty sure the archer will actually kill you faster than the ice storm will kill them with that plan, but wizards can do many other things, including wind wall.

A Wizard can certainly beat a zen archer, Wizards are full casters that is what they do. My point is that IN PFS I haven't run into encounters that handle 30 AC and good all saves at level 6.

Wizard, Cleirc, Druid, Witch are the most powerful classes in the game, because they can handle ANYTHING, however if they aren't prepared for it (READ: Most NPC mages) they will get crushed by way too high numbers. :)

Liberty's Edge *****

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Wind Wall > Archers.

The Exchange ****

I specifically mentioned wind wall in my post :)

My point is that PFS SCENARIOS don't usually have those things written in, and if they don't, archer builds pretty much rock the world.

Liberty's Edge ***

Benrislove wrote:
Cormac O'Bron wrote:
Benrislove wrote:
If you have an optimized Zen archer, it's generally wise for people to simply stand behind you, while you kill everything and have too high of AC/saves to get hit by anything. This can detract from the fun of others.

Step One: Stoneskin

Step Two: Ice Storm (no save, no evasion, NO NOTHING).

Repeat step 2 till said archer is a puddle of goo.

Adamant weapon blanch on 10 arrows is only 100 GP. My zen archer has 20 ^_^, plenty to kill a wizard.

I'm pretty sure the archer will actually kill you faster than the ice storm will kill them with that plan, but wizards can do many other things, including wind wall.

A Wizard can certainly beat a zen archer, Wizards are full casters that is what they do. My point is that IN PFS I haven't run into encounters that handle 30 AC and good all saves at level 6.

Wizard, Cleirc, Druid, Witch are the most powerful classes in the game, because they can handle ANYTHING, however if they aren't prepared for it (READ: Most NPC mages) they will get crushed by way too high numbers. :)

Sigh... Step 3: Improved Invis

Step 4: Mirror Image
Step 5: Displacement
Step 6: Murderous Command...

Repeat step 6 till you kill your whole party.

But you are right, PFS vs. Ranged Specialist (and if they are flying, it gets even sicker) is a mismatch.


Improved Invis and Mirror Image are redundant. The images must be visible in order for them to get 'popped', and the images mimic your appearance. If you're invisible, so are they, and thus useless while under the effects of improved invis.

The Exchange *****

NWOrpheus wrote:
Improved Invis and Mirror Image are redundant. The images must be visible in order for them to get 'popped', and the images mimic your appearance. If you're invisible, so are they, and thus useless while under the effects of improved invis.

unless the shooter has See Invisible, or someone casts Invisibility Purge, or.... but you get the idea. Yeah, both the Images and the caster are Invisible.

The Exchange ****

Plumekith see invisibiliy or hand of glory.
seeking bow, Zen archers can ignore total concealment and Total cover.

I'm not sure how you got 3 rounds to buff in this situation either. Wind Wall is more effective in this case than your entire set-up.

Murderous command is worthless, and not on the wizard spell list. I'll walk over and try to punch someone, And you're using a cleric spell, AND wayfinder+clear spindle.

Again, wind wall > archers, then the fight is a draw, as the archer just leaves and repeats until the wizard runs out of wind walls, then the wizard leaves. How fun!

I love wizards, one of the things I love about wizards is how many tricks are available to them I will never say they can't win in a duel against anything :)

The Exchange *****

the best answer?
Get the Judge to issue a warning - no PvP guys!

;)

Liberty's Edge ***

NWOrpheus wrote:
Improved Invis and Mirror Image are redundant. The images must be visible in order for them to get 'popped', and the images mimic your appearance. If you're invisible, so are they, and thus useless while under the effects of improved invis.

Until you get glitterdusted, invis purged, or see invis-ed.

Benrislove wrote:
Murderous command is worthless, and not on the wizard spell list. I'll walk over and try to punch someone, And you're using a cleric spell...

Mystic Theurge Baby!!!! (Psych, just got a wand and a high UMD, lol)

nosig wrote:

the best answer?

Get the Judge to issue a warning - no PvP guys!

;)

Chill, Winston, we're just smack talking.

**

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Wizard was my favorite class from first edition on.

In PFS my conjurer wizard just hit level 3. However it is a lot more challenging to contribute with the restrictions from Society play. I still feel he does something every adventure, though usually it isn't his spells.

His main contribution to date is identifying monsters vulnerabilities or resistances. Though it stings like last session when identifying DR/blunt didn't help that much. None of the party carried alternate or backup weapons. Well my wizard does...(cold iron dagger, silver light mace, etc.) ;)

In addition the majority of foes he's run into so far use natural weapons so nothing for Grease to disarm. Though it did work once on a raging barbarian's greataxe.

He's adapted to the tactics of the parties he plays with as well as the scripted encounters. As the enemy tends to be in multiple groups he'll try to lockdown the foes the party does not charge.

He used to cast Enlarge. But after having it fizzle as the melees change targets and run out of range before he's finished casting, he doesn't memorize it anymore. A full-round fizzle is painful.

Before you ask, he always inquired if the fighter/barbarians in the party wanted the buff. If they agreed in the affirmative he then asked for them to stay within his range and explained why. But in the excitement of the fight everyone ran off except for the robed guy mumbling for a round, LOL.

Color Spray has been mostly unused as he's run into a lot of undead and constructs. Ditto for Sleep. Also PFS play tends to spread all the bad guys out right before they surround you so AoEs tend not to target very many at least not before the party is mixing it up.

I did get to use both Color Spray and Grease in two boss fights...but the boss were higher level with better saves so DC 16/17 doesn't quite cut it. For that matter it didn't work that well on the mooks either. With careful placement I've tagged about 4 or 5 mooks, and all but 1 saved. :)

He has yet to run into another wizard he can share spell books with.

But none of that fazes me, I keep playing him. I have more fun with the RP aspects (prestidigitation, mage hand) and I've even bypassed combat encounters through clever thinking which I really think what the wizard should be all about. Plus I took a raven familiar so he gets to idle away conversations with him. Funny when the raven makes the skill checks he fails. "Hey boss, that's a skeleton." Or "Bad guy's casting a summmon spell you idiot!" *pecks at wizard*

In PFS without crafting and restrictions on having the right spells available I am thinking a sorcerer may be more practical. I may play one for comparison and find out...nah, I'm still a wizard at heart :)

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

The restrictions on Wizards are, probably, not quite as bad as you might think.

While you cannot craft, it is still not too bad to add spells to your spellbook. Along with scribing from scrolls and spellbooks "found" during the scenario, it only costs half again the scribing cost to "buy" a spell from an NPC caster to add to your spellbook, and you only need the scribing Spellcraft check, which is DC 15 + spell level, and not the DC 20 reading the spell Spellcraft check, as well.

For a typical Wizard, being Int-based, he should be able to make that Spellcraft check with Take 10, which is perfectly legal for this, since Spellcraft for him should be, at this point, as a WAG, 3 ranks, 4 or 5 for Int and 3 for a class skill, giving a +10 or 11, so T10 would be enough for 5th or 6th level spells, for a caster who can only prepare 2nd level spells...

Hopefully, some time our prepared casters can play together, your Wizard and my Magus. For the most part, Magus spells are also on the Wizard spell list, so maybe we can trade a few spells, which would be for only the scribing costs...

Some advice so that you feel less like you are not contributing:
Spend 2 PP for a Wand of Magic Missiles. Only one missile, but it is almost guaranteed damage that bypasses most DRs and resistances. I know my Magus, at 3rd or 4th level, spent most of one long encounter (multiple waves of enemies) standing on a wall zapping enemy spellcasters with his wand.

2 PP for either a wand of CLW, or Infernal Healing (Your Wizard can actually use this one without a UMD check, but it has limitations that can cause some party members to refuse to get healed by it.)

Grease, even if the enemies don't use weapons, can still be useful for tactical use, making the enemy prone or have to save or be flatfooted (especially if there is a Rogue or Ninja in the party) is never a bad thing.

Check out some of the splat book spells, too. Create Pit and Snowball are both useful spells in their niches.

I have seen the right cantrip at the right time make a difference.

A lot of the lessons from LG carry over to PFS, really. Metamagic rods can be useful, once you have the Fame and gold to afford them. Pearls of Power, of course.

An Extended Mage Armor is never a bad thing.

Grand Lodge ****

Kinevon is right.. there are some AWESOME spells for both the wizard and his/her party. Some of the ones I used in the last few adventures with my 10th Admixture wizard (who is rocking a 26 int thanks to race, magic items and a certain boon).

Examples include:(For herself)
-Extended Mage Armor
-Extended Bullet Shield (for ranged attacks)
-Extended False Life
-Extended See Invisble
(Herself and Party members)
-Extended Communal Resist/Protection from Energy
-Extended Protection from Normal Arrows
-Extended Communal Darkvision (for the non-darksight members of the party)

Metamagic Rods are AWESOME. My wizard is Admixture.. soooo my first one was..
-Lesser Rime Metamagic: Cause slapping a 2nd/3rd level Ice Spell on someone is great for killing enemy mobility.
-Lesser Reach Metamagic: Because some fun spells (Lipstich, Ray of Enfeeblement) are better when you reach out further than folks expect it.
-Lesser Selective Metamagic. Because I love saying 'Have a fireball boys' and watching the GM blink as they take NO damage.
-Merciful Metamagic: Basically so I can do non-lethal damage to anyone with anyspell I own.

If you got some resources like .. Adventurer's Armory, you can add in Alchemical Spell components for more fun. Tanglefoot bag for improving Black Tentacles and Alchemical Fire can do AWESOME things both as a focus and component. Nothing like leaving the enemy on fire after your scorching ray, firebal or whatever.

'Specialty' spells like Burning Disarm, Burning Arc, Enhanced Diplomacy (via Two-World Magic) are all 'toys' in my Wizards(s) toybox.

I got a few 'emergency' scrolls/tattoos and riffle scrolls for 'in case' issues. (Suppress Charms & Compulsions, Cultural Adaptation, and other rare occasion spells. A riffle scroll is great for 'sneak spelling')

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

I forgot to mention, Wizards have the ability to leave a spell slot or two open, and spend 15 minutes or so (less with the right feat) to fill it with a spell or spells suggested by the VC briefing.

Means you have to pay attention to that boring box text, but it means that, especially if you make the initial Knowledge checks for background (and you run a Wizard, you should rock out on these kinds of checks), you should be able to have just the right tools available in your tool box.

And a bunch of 2 PP 1st level wands can provide a lot of "cheap" utility.
Protection from Evil
Endure Elements
Infernal Healing/Cure Light Wounds
Abundant Ammunition
Magic Missile
and so on

Lantern Lodge **** Venture-Lieutenant, Maryland—Frederick aka Azarius2010

I have a 9th Level wizard/conjurer. Can you say Cloudkill at the bottom of the Hungry Pit?

Grand Lodge ****

Kurt S wrote:
I have a 9th Level wizard/conjurer. Can you say Cloudkill at the bottom of the Hungry Pit?

No.. but I can say this.

"Cloudkill/Black Tentacles/Obsidian Flow surrounded by a Wall of stone" nothing like having a summoner buddy with you. :D

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

"Okay, who gets to shut down the encounter this time? The Wizard with his Pit spells, the Lore Warden with his Trip/Disarm, the archer with pure damage? Step up, step up, next!"

Several of the builds possible are designed to trivialize encounters by allowing the PCs to defeat the encounters piecemeal, by temporarily or permanently removing part of the quota of enemies. That, really, is what your Conjurer/Wizard should be looking at spells to do. That, and buffs/debuffs.

Spells that neutralize or remove opponents are among the biggest debuffs, Slow, Dispel Magic, Create Pit, Toppling metamagic, Dazing, etc. Debuffs and battlefield control, really. In many ways, they are very similar in what their effect is, reducing an enemy or batch thereofs effectiveness.

Next best are spells that improve the party or members thereof. Haste is good, so is Blessing of Fervor. Even Bless can be helpful. Hero's Feast, Heroism, etc. Keep an eye out for synergies. Guidance, for example, has actually moved up my list of cantrips/orisons of value.

Last, but not least, is the ability to do actual damage. Sometimes, even plinking away can make a difference. Which is also why I like wands. Using a wand is a Standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Which is probably why so many PCs decide to add UMD to their trained skills. Being able to try and use a wand of CLW is nice. Being able to use some nastier wand, without provoking, can be nicer.

Silver Crusade ***

Just made level 3 with my wizard. I've been waiting to get create pit for a long time. Then watch my GM cringe as I bomb him to death why he is stuck down there. Wizard (Arcane Bomber) Bombs 7/day 2D6+4 = 6 splash damage. In a place they will have a hard time getting out of. And I only need to hit a AC 5 for the intersection down at the bottom.

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