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Somewhere there is a rage power called body bludgeoner, which let's you treat smaller enemies as improvised weapons. So.... Choosing a medium goblin from monster codex... You walk in. You see your prey, and bite down on them. With your powerful jaws you lock in. The taste of blood drives you crazy, and in your fenzy you pick up a smaller for, and beat them onto the first. A horrifying sight, but admittedly an entertaining one...
Apologies for thread necro, and raining on Gobo Hordes parade but I think there's an inconsistency in his build. Assuming 9th level with rapid grappler and animal fury, when you have to move in before attacking you would only get in 1 bite, not 5.
You are right in the sense that the move action is gone, and the standard action, leaving only the swift. If you didn't have something that converts a swift to a move, then this is where the turn ends. However, there is a magical shirt (1/day) to convert a swift to a move and in this case you could move into greater grappler territory. That being said, damage doesn't end after the grab, and at the least, you would get your Animal Fury bite and the standard 'maintain' damage. So you would only get 3 'attacks' if you couldn't convert the swift action, and had to move up to the opponent.
According to the grapple rules, the initial grapple attempt only does that, it begins the grapple, nothing more. It doesn't let you inflict damage until your next grapple check on your next turn. Also, rapid grappler specifically calls out using the Greater Grapple mechanic that is making a grapple check as a move action to MAINTAIN the grapple. Since on the initial free grapple from the bite, you are only initiating the grapple, you wouldn't get to trigger rapid grappler.
The initial grapple check isn't a grapple check, it is a Standard action attack. The grab ability lets you tag a free grapple attempt onto it, but I understand what you are saying. Grappling doesn't work the way you think it does, and more importantly, 'Grab' is a special ability that (imo) heavily modifies the grapple chart. Grabbing is grappling with a twist that you tag on constrict damage immediately, or after this round (looking to the future) you simply add dice damage as if you were maintaining a grapple. Now, once you have successfully grabbed you are now also in a standard grapple, which activates Animal Fury (free attack) and allows you to also, even though you ARE grappling, maintain it (as per the RAW rules of the grapple com bat maneuver), so you can activate dice damage with no roll.
The standard action to grapple at no point speaks to ceasing any other possible actions until the future comes upon you. It simply states that it costs a standard, and you get a grapple. I am not sure why some posters insert hidden words into the grapple action, leading to this distant future when new things will be allowed to take place, but right now, alas, everything is over... Greater and Rapid say that you can keep making grapple attempts as maintaining actions (which are completely normal, as the standard action grapple stats that if you've already succeeded, and the grapple is 100% successful, you can still 'maintain' it, you just don't roll), and to do so, lets you eat up other forms of your turn (move and swift) and you can simply continue to maintain. During a grapple, you can maintain, it is within a grapple. You can also continue to add grapple actions whether they are needed for a successful maintain or not. For some reason people believe that once a successful grapple happens, magically everything else disappears and the opponent is surrounded by a bubble of invincibility to all other actions taking place involving grappling. This is not true, otherwise you could not damage them by maintaining a grapple. Success or failure of grappling does not negate attempts to grapple or maintain. They are merely consecutive, and if you succeed to maintain on any one of them, you do not make the actual grapple checks to maintain on future ones, but may freely continue to maintain as long as you have actions/abilities that allow you to do so. This is why via the use of greater/rapid, you can initiate a pin in the first round. By SUCCESSFULLY grappling, then immediately with your already successfully grappled opponent, you may continue to grapple with them to turn it into a pin. If your beliefs (and many of those against the Gnasher concept) were true, you could never go beyond a simple grapple success in a round, which according to the feats themselves, show that you can clearly continue to apply actions to a fully grappled opponent beyond the standard action grapple.
You can use a normal grapple, greater grapple and rapid grapple in succession as long as you have the actions irregardless of successes or failures. And, as per the rules of grapple "a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions". Therefore, in any maintenance action, damage may be applied, period.
If starting from away, first you spend a move action to get in range, then a standard action to bite, that initital bite allows you to initiate the grapple. That's it, round one is done, one bite, begin grappling.
Already addressed above. Completely false.
Now, once you BEGIN your turn already latched on like a mad dog, everything flows perfectly. You standard to maintain, prefaced by an animal fury bite, then deal bite to maintain. Then move action to maintain via Greater Grapple, prefaced by an animal fury bite. Since you have used greater grapple to maintain as a move action NOW you get the swift action third grapple, prefaced by an animal fury bite.
This concept of "begin", "start" or "open" in reference to grappling is a subjective analysis of the grappling concept, that isn't written anywhere in grappling descriptions and is completely a fabrication of some players. At no point does it reference temporality other than stating that you can only maintain after the initial roll to successfully begin the grapple (which grab does), and therefore, you may maintain as much and as many times as you like (as clearly described in the feats) for as many actions/feats allow you to do so.
In short, the round you have to move in and start, you get one bite only, but once you start the turn grappling then you get the 6 bites in one turn.
If anyone thinks Im miss-reading, please feel free to correct me, I'd love nothing more than to get 5 bites after moving in! Unfortunately I believe the rules shaft it. Sorry to burst the the bubble Gobo Horde, I really love the build and I'm definitely going to play a psycho biter at some point! XD
Let me know if you have any quotable evidence, from within paizo material or an official source that. Evidence must be produced that clearly outlines the temporality as fixed upon the standard action grapple to negate these interpretations as A) Grapple as a standard doe not stop them, and B) clearly outlines that all maintenances can be done even when a grapple is successful, and with that maintenance comes free damage. The feats merely keep you successful/unsuccessfully grappling, and with those maintenances, comes free damage. Literally nothing is written that stops this, and any interpretation otherwise is subjective and fabricate (at best, RAI).
The only issues I have with the Gnasher build are the following:
1) Grab is a special form of grappling, and is not the same, and within its description outlines forms of opening the grapple, but then moves towards a new and separate statement " If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold." This is new data, and is not referencing maintaining a grapple. This is new damage above/beyond maintenance damage (RAW). In addition, this damage cannot apply this round (as it negates the current round), but for all future rounds, for this grapple, no maintenance check needed, you simply deal damage based on the original attack method (meaning this isn't tied to holding your teeth on them with a Gnasher, in this instance, it just happens to be the same instrument). So for example, a raging human barbarian with a club could smash the opponent with one hand, grab them with the other, and in future rounds automatically deal them damage (not conencted to the choice made from a maintanance where damage 'might' be applied because of your choice) based on the original weapon, weather it's still in your hand, dropped to the ground, or obliterated. The existence and location of that weapon is not relevant, grab merely takes that weapons damage dice, and if you ever keep grappling them in the future, that damage magically appears for that opponent...
2) Animal Fury; same issue I have with the grab concept above. The Gnasher just so happens to have the same damage source as its grapple source, and nothing in the texts states you can't Use you bite with animal fury and maintain the hold, but there's obviously subjective difficulty in accepting this, and there are some statements in some abilities that would lead us to believe that it might not be possible. That given a Gnasher's mouth, a grapple cannot be maintained and gain the use of animal fury. However, a bite doesn't need to be a release, drop to the ground, re-initiate and re-bite (although you can absolutely do this given the feats and releaing being a free action (more about that some other time). In any case, Animal Fury is a point of contention. However, we're already dealing with an exhorbent number of attacks due to grab anyway.
*All-in-all. I think grab is supposed to re-word grapple, but it doesn't. I think grapple and grab are supposed to reference future grapple attempts, not insinuate future rounds. I believe grapple and grab are the same, and the feats allow additional grapple attempts. People subjectively see Standard Action grapple and assume nothing can do a standard action grapple until there's, well... another standard action. Which logically, takes a round. However, the standard action grapple moment is simply extended into move and swift with the feats. That, as long as you have successfully grappled, you can continue, and that's what the feats do.
Finally, I also think the Animal Fury works with Gnasher, I just think the goblin repositions with two open hands and continues to 'gnash' the opponent, much like a grapple maintenance, but with the penalty of an attack roll because you aren't squeezing, you're re-biting. In any case, that is all completely subjective, and would like to hear everyone else's thoughts on the matter.
I waffle on the animal fury with feral gnasher.
The 6th level Improved Lockjaw ability specifically states "is unable to move or use her mouth for anything other than grappling."
This could be interpreted as precluding using it for additional bite attacks from animal fury.
Expect variance there.
Remember that when using animal fury, and using the bite attack, it is "part of the action to maintain... a grapple". Therefore, when using the bite attack, you are grappling. The two are inseparable.
There are several things that can take place as "part of a grapple", "during a grapple", "to maintain a grapple", etc... It's only that Animal Fury calls out that you're making an attack. The ability to deal damage while maintaining that is naturally included in a grapple itself is the same, it just doesn't say 'bite' and doesn't make you do an attack roll. If using a natural weapon (claw/bite), how else would you deal damage without creating a swinging motion, or unlock/lock again? You couldn't.
If you start to interpret abilities like this you'd have to re-haul quite a few feats and abilities in the game. In any case, I see what you're saying, but Lockjaw is referring to (RAW and RAI) things that are NOT grapple actions. Activating animal fury simply adds a sub-text to the grapple maintenance statement, as does 'Grab', and feats, or rage powers (hive poison, bleed, etc...). They simply add to the action itself (which is what Lockjaw is referring to), this addition is not separate of the grappling action, it is part of the grappling action itself. That's why it is "a part of" the action. To say you cannot use Animal Fury as part of Lockjaw, also means that you cannot maintain a grapple because of Lockjaw. After all, maintaining a grapple isn't a grapple right? If it is part of a grapple (as you and I know it is) then so is Animal Fury, as it is by pure RAW, "part of" the maintenance action.
If it alleviates the subjectivity of the matter, just consider that something like a Gnasher is actually grappling with two-hands AND a bite. This is why we have penalties if not having hands free to do grapples, there's interplay between all limbs involved. So, if all hands are free, you're actually grappling them with three limbs, and to 'bite' is fine, just like stabbing them with one hand would be (which is required, and hinted at) when adding the damage, without rolling if successfully maintaining.
Keep in mind that your opinion is subjective. I don't know how many GM's you have personally and directly polled on this very specific issue, but heck, I'm interested to know how deep that rabbit hole goes.
What I can say objectively is that I have read bout a dozen posts on the issue, and A) Only one contradicted the norm (that Animal Fury works with Lockjaw), that B) the only one that disagreed was recent, and had very little Google priority and thus was very late to the party to include an alternative interpretation, was never contradicted prior to it and had very little traffic and C) the other almost a dozen posts had everyone in it have no indication that they disagreed with the sentiment.
Therefore, objectively, I can conclude that for quite some time, and after, the norm and 100% agreement in online chatter was that this combination worked and all experience with GM's around those posters was to the effect that it ran this way.
As for interpretation, there is none, it is RAW. If you remove Animal Fury due to Lockjaw, you would also have to remove all maintenance actions (as they are one in the same based on the evidence/quotations provided). And thus, stating one cannot use Animal Fury due to Lockjaw consequently removes all maintenance actions themselves. This is not possible, and therefore the GM must decide. Do they allow Animal Fury to work as written (RAW) or do they intervene and subvert the rules as written. It is their decision, and I am impartial to the matter.
However, as stated, any GM can run a game whichever way they choose. RAW, RAI or winging-it.
So probably a little late to the party, but do all the bite attacks get the damage dice from your savage bite or would the bite from Animal Fury still just be 1d3?
