Help with Summoner Build


Advice

Grand Lodge

I run an afterschool PfS club and have a student who wants to create a summoner whose Eidolon is basically a reflection of Shiva. So basically he wants a four armed warrior who can hold four weapons.

I am unfamiliar with summoner builds and exactly how to create this. I would love for some help on how to create this.

So please help away...

Grand Lodge

Overall, Biped with the Extra Limbs evolution.

Note that it can hold 4 weapons, but only use two of them for attacking.

Tien is probably the nationality closest to Indian/Hindi in Golarion.

If you have access to old 3.5E sources, also look at the archer demon, for what an ugly ugly range-dedicated four-armed build can do. Heck, that thing was written with a proviso that it couldn't attack the same target with both bows. And that was without feats like Deadly Aim...


Vudrani would actually be a closer match to Indian/Hindu.

Dark Archive

You may be better off using the extra arms for slam attacks; otherwise you're not going to be able to get very many attacks in.


He'll have a hard time out-of-the-box, as he won't have enough evolutions... I'd suggest starting with hints from Ultimate Magic Eidolon Models, especially the Bodyguard model (which suggests 11 evolution points).

However, if I were building it:

Level 1:

Summoner takes Extra evolution as lvl 1 feat; total evolution points=4.

Base Form biped: Free Evolutions claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs).

Evolutions: limbs (arms) (2 points), weapon training (2 points) (Go read the evolution on the PRD because he's only getting simple weapons, not martial. He needs 2 more points for martial.

So just grab 4 simple weapons, preferably light weapons (or 1 one-handed and 3 light weapons for offhands)


However:

However, this build wants an answer to the question in this thread (go there and click the FAQ button!) and this post may also be relevant, but I have NO idea if that's correct or not (i.e. if fighting with 4 arms, 4 weapons gets you 4 attacks with _no penalties_ (sounds wrong to me); but 4 arms, 4 weapons, 5 attacks and suddenly you take -4 mainhand, -6 to all offhand attacks 'cause you're TWF... that seems a little odd to me. More likely it's 4 arms, 4 weapons, 1 main hand attack, 3 offhand attacks and if you DON'T have Multi-weapon fighting (which you can't get because it's a monster feat) then you take -4 to the mainhand and -6 to each offhand...

You're much better off just using the free claws on one set of hands, buying another set of claws (instead of weapon use) and taking improved natural armor for +2 AC. You're limited to 3 attacks, but they're all at FULL BAB with no penalties. Pick up a shield for the 4th arm (you'll take a penalty to attacks unless it's got a 0 armor check penalty or you take shield proficiency with the feat).


And lastly:
I don't know for sure if Eidolons can use shields or not, the actual text says they "cannot wear armor of any kind," but I dunno if that includes shields or not.

Grand Lodge

Thanks for the help everyone I am going to look at those threads and give him your suggestions...

Also a quick question can you have the eidolon take the simple or exotic weapon feat to gain access to weapons or is that not allowed or just a bad idea?

Once again thanks for the feedback. We start our first scenario tomorrow.

Lantern Lodge

I believe there is an evolution that gives an eidolon proficiency with all simple weapons. Taking it a second time gives them proficiency with all martial weapons.

Croman wrote:

Thanks for the help everyone I am going to look at those threads and give him your suggestions...

Also a quick question can you have the eidolon take the simple or exotic weapon feat to gain access to weapons or is that not allowed or just a bad idea?

Once again thanks for the feedback. We start our first scenario tomorrow.


The Eidolon can take any of the weapon proficiency feats: Simple Weapon Proficiency has no pre-reqs, gives all simple weapons; Martial Weapon Proficiency has no pre-reqs, gives proficiency with ONE SINGLE martial weapon (so you're stuck with that one if you choose this), Exotic Weapon Proficiency requires Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1 (which Eidolons have at level 1) and gives proficiency with ONE SINGLE exotic weapon (same drawback as martial proficiency).

Martial or exotic wpn proficiency feat might be a better way to get his eidolon the single weapon he wants (and let him still have evolutions for improved natural armor and whatever else--a tentacle attack, or possibly the ridiculous evolutions in the ARG (link) or something else entirely.

However, remember that at 1st level eidolons do NOT have good survivability because they only get ½ die hp: ½*d10=5.5hp/HD, at level 1 they have 1 HD, so rounds to 5 hp, +1 for the CON bonus for biped form... Yeah, you have a class feature wading into melee with 6 hit points and it can't wear any armor... That's like a Wizard or Sorcerer going toe-to-toe in melee... (I think I've taken toughness as the first feat for every eidolon I've ever made). I STRONGLY advise: Just let it have 2 levels of using its claws instead of weapons; it gets its second feat at level 3 and he can take weapon proficiency then.

Grand Lodge

Odea wrote:


However, remember that at 1st level eidolons do NOT have good survivability because they only get ½ die hp: ½*d10=5.5hp/HD, at level 1 they have 1 HD, so rounds to 5 hp, +1 for the CON bonus for biped form... Yeah, you have a class feature wading into melee with 6 hit points and it can't wear any armor...

Where is this written? I looked over D20 pathfinder and the APG. I can't find anything that says you only get half of the 10 hps an Eidolon is supposed to get. Can you explain where this rule is? Because I have read over summoner and eidolon on both sites TWICE and I can't find what you are talking about.

I am concerned because my summoner is lvl 6 now and I played him as a master summmoner this entire time. So I am not as familiar with a summoner as much because I haven't played him this way for 17 scenarios. Well Its showing on HeroLab that my Eidolon has only 30 hps and I am wondering if that is correct. Most classes have almost double or double that at level 6.
Thanks!


Spellbane wrote:
Where is this written? I looked over D20 pathfinder and the APG. I can't find anything that says you only get half of the 10 hps an Eidolon is supposed to get. Can you explain where this rule is? Because I have read over summoner and eidolon on both sites TWICE and I can't find what you are talking about.

Racial hit dice always get half their maximum value at first level, just like class hit dice always get their full value. The Eidolon's hit die is racial.

Grand Lodge

Roberta Yang wrote:
Spellbane wrote:
Where is this written? I looked over D20 pathfinder and the APG. I can't find anything that says you only get half of the 10 hps an Eidolon is supposed to get. Can you explain where this rule is? Because I have read over summoner and eidolon on both sites TWICE and I can't find what you are talking about.
Racial hit dice always get half their maximum value at first level, just like class hit dice always get their full value. The Eidolon's hit die is racial.

Is this every level that the Eidolon only gets 5 hps + con? So 30 hps at level 6 is accurate and at 12th level, the Eidolon will have only 60 hps if i don't put points into con or toughness?


Spellbane wrote:
Is this every level that the Eidolon only gets 5 hps + con? So 30 hps at level 6 is accurate and at 12th level, the Eidolon will have only 60 hps if i don't put points into con or toughness?

The Eidolon's first hit die grants 5 HP and each subsequent hit die grants whatever you roll on the d10 (average 5.5). Note that the Eidolon doesn't get another hit die with each summoner level, though; it doesn't get one at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, or 20th summoner level.

For example, when the summoner is twelfth level, the Eidolon has nine hit dice, so it has 5+8d10+9*CON HP, which with its base 13 Con works out to an average of 58 HP, assuming you never spend any ability score increases, evolutions, or magic items on enhancing Con, or any feats or favored class bonuses enhancing HP. But you're almost certainly going to take the Large evolution, which comes with +4 Con as one of its many benefits, which brings the average up to 76.

Grand Lodge

Anyone know what the HPs for the Eilodon are supposed to be in PFS. I have been told that its 4.5HP/ HD like for Companions, which seems out of whack since they get 8 sided dice for HP rather then 10 sided like Eilodons. One of the more experienced people where I play told me he read that it was 6HP/ HD. Can anyone tell me for sure?

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