Does AOMF stack with catfolk claw blades?


Rules Questions


Just wondering...would +5 amulet and +5 claw blades give +10 to claw attacks?

If so, "Haha, I laugh at your puny damage resistance!"


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No. Claw blades are weapons not natural weapons and thus not affected by Amulet of Mighty Fists.

Even if they were (which they are not) two sources of Enhancement bonuses do not stack. You take the highest one only.

- Gauss


Thought claw blades enhanced the natural attack (the claw) instead of counting as an actual weapon..

Thanks for the response


Redchigh: Nope :)

ARG p93 wrote:
These subtle blades can only be used by catfolk with the cat’s claws racial trait. Bought in a set of five, they fit over the wearer’s claws on one hand. The blades grant the wearer a +1 enhancement bonus on claw attack rolls with that hand and change the weapon type from a natural weapon to a light slashing weapon.

- Gauss


Oh, hmm. What would be the point then? A Twf type build?


Nope, the point is that they can be enhanced as weapons rather than as natural weapons.

The Amulet of Mighty Fists costs 2.5 times as much as a weapon and takes a neck slot.

So lets outfit a catfolk warrior:
AoMF vs pair of Claw Blades
+1: 5,000 vs 4,000
+2: 20,000 vs 16,000
+3: 45,000 vs 36,000
+4: 80,000 vs 64,000
+5: 125,000 vs 100,000

As you can see: a pair of claw blades are cheaper than an Amulet of Mighty Fists and they do not take up the neck slot.

- Gauss

Dark Archive

Gauss wrote:

Nope, the point is that they can be enhanced as weapons rather than as natural weapons.

The Amulet of Mighty Fists costs 2.5 times as much as a weapon and takes a neck slot.

So lets outfit a catfolk warrior:
AoMF vs pair of Claw Blades
+1: 5,000 vs 4,000
+2: 20,000 vs 16,000
+3: 45,000 vs 36,000
+4: 80,000 vs 64,000
+5: 125,000 vs 100,000

As you can see: a pair of claw blades are cheaper than an Amulet of Mighty Fists and they do not take up the neck slot.

- Gauss

Yup, they just make you less likely to hit with them and drops your total DPR is all.


The killer for me is they only affect claws.. I have a bite attack... Oh well, no claw blades for me. Thx


Mathwei ap Niall:

I assume you mean that you are going from 2 natural attacks at full BAB to TWF style with a -2attack and half strength damage on the offhand.

You are correct. However, with TWF you can get iterative attacks which you cannot with natural attacks. At low levels stick to natural attacks, at mid-high levels go with the claw blades and TWF feats. Then your DPR increases and not decreases. If you would like the math I can provide that. (Note: this would assume a fighter or ranger build, a Rogue or other medium BAB build should stick with natural weapons.)

- Gauss


Redchigh: If you have a bite attack you should absolutely go for the Amulet of Mighty Fists. At that point AoMF is cheaper. :)

- Gauss


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Both magical enhancement to the claw blades and an amulet of mighty fists provide enhancement bonuses to attack and damage, therefore they do not stack with one another.


Actually at higher levels it might be a good idea to get a single claw blade.
Then make itterative attacks with the main hand and secondary natural attacks with the other claw and bite.

If you get Multiattack feat you only take a -2 on those instead of -5.

That might be overall better than diving into the TWF line.


If I remember correctly (a previous thread) Redchigh is doing a Rogue build? If that is correct then Redchigh would not gain iterative attacks until level 8 and would probably not get the second iterative attack until level 15.

Redchigh: if you want I can run the numbers to see what the breakpoint is.

- Gauss

Dark Archive

Gauss wrote:

Mathwei ap Niall:

I assume you mean that you are going from 2 natural attacks at full BAB to TWF style with a -2attack and half strength damage on the offhand.

You are correct. However, with TWF you can get iterative attacks which you cannot with natural attacks. At low levels stick to natural attacks, at mid-high levels go with the claw blades and TWF feats. Then your DPR increases and not decreases. If you would like the math I can provide that. (Note: this would assume a fighter or ranger build, a Rogue or other medium BAB build should stick with natural weapons.)

- Gauss

What I was actually referring to is how it affects all your OTHER natural attacks (since you should have at least 3 if you go nat weapon style) but you make a good point there.

Any time before 11th level (minimum) claw caps drops your chance to hit by switching you to iterative attacks and that evil -5 on each subsequent attack (or -2 with TWF and all the feats that costs).

After 11th level you will be back at 3 attacks a round (for full bab classes) but you'll STILL be less likely to hit unless you've spent a fortune in magical gear to overcome that -5 to hit you're suffering from for using iterative attacks.

Claw caps can make your minimum damage per hit go up but it's ALWAYS going to make your minimum bonus to hit go lower (by -2 or -5).

Is saving a little cash worth it?


Actually it's a multiclass, (right now at least,) going natural attack ranger 3, Monk MoMS 2, UA fighter 2, and beyond that, i'm not sure.

My race is in the homebrew subforum if you want to see it.


Mathwei ap Niall: No saving a little cash is probably not worth it if you have a bite attack.

Redchigh: Perhaps I was confusing you with someone else who was doing a catfolk build. :)

- Gauss

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

One benefit, is that whether your clawblades are on or not, you get bonuses from feats specific to your claws.
Examples include: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Natural Attack, and Feral Combat Training.

Dark Archive

blackbloodtroll wrote:

One benefit, is that whether your clawblades are on or not, you get bonuses from feats specific to your claws.

Examples include: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Natural Attack, and Feral Combat Training.

True but if you have more or less then exactly 2 natural attacks these items are going to be a net decrease in your chance to hit and a noticeable decrease in your DPR.


@math Why do you say that?


Primary NAs are at full BAB and STR mod, the more attacks you have, the less attractive the forced TWF from claw blades are due to penalties imposed on both weapons and forcing NAs to become secondary attacks -5/.5 STR mod.


Some math:

First a note about the following assumptions:
Assume a level 11 Ranger (BAB of +11)
Assume an ability score modifier of +7 (start of +4, +1from level, +2 from enhancement)
Assume a +2weapon enhancement bonus
Assume Weapon Focus, TWF, Imp. TWF, Gr. TWF, Double Slice, Improved Natural Weapon (this leaves 3 feats available, the non-TWF build has 7feats available)
Assume an enemy AC of 25 (Bestiary 1, table 1-1)

Lets compare:
+20attack with 2claws vs +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8 with TWF claw blades.
Damage: 1d6+9(7ability,2enhancement) = 12.5avg.

Equation:
(%chance to hit*[avg damage+avg precision damage])+(%chance to hit*avg damage*chance to crit*[crit multipler-1])

Claws: (.8*12.5)+(.8*12.5*.05*1) = 10.5*2 = 21avg
TWF: 9.1875*2+5.90625*2+2.625*2 = 35.4365avg

This is just a rough estimate of claws vs claw blades using full TWF.

Since claws have 4 extra feats remaining Rending Claws would be eligible.
This would increase the damage by 3.5avg*0.8*0.8 = 2.24 from 21avg to 23.24avg.
A bite attack at the same bonuses (using another weapon focus feat and improved natural weapon feat) would increase it another (0.8*12.5)+(0.8*12.5+.05*1)= 10.5 bringing the total up to 31.5 (with 4feats remaining to the TWF's 3feats remaining)

The final tally (with a bite attack and the rending claw feat) is:
natural attacks (claw/claw/bite) 31.5 with 4feats remaining
vs
Greater TWF (6attacks) 35.4365 with 3feats remaining

I am not going to say my above comparison is ideal. It was a pretty quick comparison. I am just saying that TWF can rival or exceed the DPR of a natural weapon build.

- Gauss

Dark Archive

I have no doubt about your math (since it's too early for me to be able to do real math yet) but have a request for you Gauss. Could you redo the calculation but throw on the power attack feat as well and see how the numbers come out?
I truly expect it to push the natural attacks higher overall but I may be wrong.

Edit: Couldn't help myself and had to check the numbers now so I ran it through Tejon's DPR calculator to see what happens and I was right.

The TWF with the the above feats/stats (and 2 weapon rend) against a AC 25 target will sit at about 52.10 DPR, and when only making a single attack is at 11.16 which is quite acceptable.

The claw/claw/bite ranger with the addition of Power Attack will be at 78.67 DPR however and his individual attack will be a 13.6.

Now maybe the calculator I'm using is wrong or I've entered in something incorrectly but this is about where I usually see my nat weapon ranger at and it only gets worse when you add in the favored enemy bonus.


Mathwei ap Niall:

Give me a set of parameters and I will confirm your math. I will add in Power attack and 2weapon rend in in a few hours (do not have the time right now).

- Gauss


Mathwei: Sorry, will be tommorow (maybe late tonight) before I can run the numbers. Heading off to play Starfleet Battles. :D

- Gauss


Here's a question if you have INA claw does it affect your damage with claw blades?


Talonhawke wrote:
Here's a question if you have INA claw does it affect your damage with claw blades?

No because the claws are not used as a natural weapon anymore, but as a regular weapon. The text specifically says they change from a natural weapon...


That's what I thought but didn't have a book to see if the claw blades have their own listed damage.


Talonhawke wrote:
That's what I thought but didn't have a book to see if the claw blades have their own listed damage.

They don't have their own damage. It seems that the claws just change the natural weapon into a manufactured weapon so INA should work. The ARG is in the PRD now. catfolk


Actually, the claw blades do damage as per the claw attack, they don't have a damage die themselves. If a creature has INA Claw, the damage of the claw blade would be that of the modified natural attack.


claw blades aswell can be made of differant materials like silver/cold iron/ adamantium beside the weapon enhancement


Steelthunderr wrote:

claw blades aswell can be made of differant materials like silver/cold iron/ adamantium beside the weapon enhancement

FYI you're responding to a post that is 7 years old. It's unlikely the OP (whose last post was 5 years ago) will see your response at this point.


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