DM looking for advice on a player playing a Dhampir / Paladin


Advice


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

One of my friends is going to play a Dhampir Paladin in our new campaign (Carrion Crown) starting next saturday. Since a Dhampir functions like an undead regarding positive/negative energy, I was thinking to allow him to switch Lay on Hands/Touch of Corruption (Antipaladin's) in case he needs to cure himself, he would lose his paladin abilities if use it to harm anybody.

I also will include the cause wounds line on his spell list in order to allow him to prepare/use wand these spells, again it would be an evil act to use those to hurt anybody else.

I won't include the chanel negative energy.

What do you think, it's overpowered or not?

Regarding the Paladin's code I think it can not be problem if he limits the use of these evel spells/abilities on himsef or over a friendly undead (maybe it won't happen at all).

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

I don't think inflict light wounds used to damage a living creature is an evil act, any more than throwing them in magma or hitting them with shocking grasp. Aftr all, Good-aligned gods can grant that spell. (Their clerics just can't cast it spontaneously.)

Why do you feel differently?

--+--

In a bigger picture, I would not mess with the paladin's spells. The dhampyr paladin takes a hit here, that's true.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I treat Lay on Hands as not actually being positive energy, allowing such characters to use it safely on themselves. They would still have to take Selective Channel to avoid harming themselves with their own channeled energy.

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Keep his spells and abilities the way they are. The problems he has with them are his Special Snowflake Tax.


I'm not worried about using the spells as evil acts, it's just for flavor since the spells are "evil", then it's restricted for a Paladin to use it against others.

Anyway I really don't want to mess all with another evil/paladin thread.


LazarX wrote:
Keep his spells and abilities the way they are. The problems he has with them are his Special Snowflake Tax.

That would be really hard for a 1st level character IMHO, so this is why I'm thinking about help the player a little.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Rasief wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Keep his spells and abilities the way they are. The problems he has with them are his Special Snowflake Tax.
That would be really hard for a 1st level character IMHO, so this is why I'm thinking about help the player a little.

Life is hard for first level characters. You want to give him a break toss him a couple of inflict potions. He knew what he was doing when he chose a character with undead affinity. IF you want the good stuff, you gotta take the bad parts of the package.


According to the rules for Lay On Hands a paladin that's healed by negative energy and hurt by positive energy can still heal themselves. They straight up heal wounds, and can alternatively deal damage to undead creatures.


Aratrok wrote:
According to the rules for Lay On Hands a paladin that's healed by negative energy and hurt by positive energy can still heal themselves. They straight up heal wounds, and can alternatively deal damage to undead creatures.

There is a FAQ that clarifies that Lay on Hands uses positive energy so I don't think the dhampir can use it to cure himself.


That seems like an incredibly vague response to me. What part is positive energy? Is the healing always positive? Is the damage? Does it function like channeling where it's always a positive source of energy that behaves differently depending on intent?

I'd recommend continuing to use the original text, as it's more black and white and doesn't completely gimp negative energy affinity races and undead who want to be good and play a religious class. It's what my group does, at least.


Pathfinder is not a legal document. Its clear that the paladin channels some sort of goodly-lifey energy that heals the living and harms undead. The dhampir is harmed by other goodly-lifey effects that harm undead, so he is harmed by his lay-on-hands.

The reason that the description of lay-on-hands says "can heal wounds" is because when the paladin was written, there were no PC races with negative energy affinity. So writing "The paladin can heal her wounds, as long as she does not have the negative energy affinity racial trait" was wordy and pointless.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
I treat Lay on Hands as not actually being positive energy, allowing such characters to use it safely on themselves. They would still have to take Selective Channel to avoid harming themselves with their own channeled energy.
Channel wrote:
A cleric can choose whether or not to include herself in this effect.

Does no one ever notice this? How do people think regular evil clerics work?

I'd probably allow it to heal himself as an exception. I mean if I was a diety that had such a special case (being dhampir), and I was giving him my power to do good, I would hate for my gift to screw him over. Or the power of good wouldn't want him hurting himself either (Lawful GOOD, not Lawful Stupid...) Homerules otherwise, ask your GM.

And probably FAQ.

(If you want to get technical, it says "a paladin can heal wounds (her own or those of others)" I'd probably still leave it as positive energy.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Is Lay on Hands noted as positive energy in it's entry?

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

In its entry, no. In a clarifying FAQ, yes.

By the time the character can use Lay On Hands, she'll be second level. I've played a dhampyr PC at second level. Second level characters aren't particularly delicate in Pathfinder, just limited in scope. And paladins are pretty hearty in any case.

--+--+--

Carrion Crown:

You say you're running Carrion Crown. In Ustalav, the ability to heal undead critters is indeed more powerful than elsewhere. And in CC, where the party will have the opportunity to ally with evil undead to defeat greater evil, the ability to heal those allies is probably more powerful than you might otherise consider.

--+--+--

How would you feel, if you picked a cool concept for your PC, with some angst and internal conflict built right in (say, an aasimar inquisitor of Asmodeus) and your GM "helped you out" by eliminating that conflict?

Your player chose that combination of race and class with his eyes wide open. Do him a favor and let him play the character the way he wants.


I find it highly irritating that a lot of players want to play something special but don't want to suffer the consequences.

The Dhampir has drawbacks and if one doesn't want to deal with those he should play something else.

If you allow your dhampir to ignore it's drawbacks do you allow your mages to wear plate without spellfailoure?
Do you allow a dwarf player to move 30ft because the drawback of being slow is too much?

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Oooh.
I want to play a Kobold Babarian, who is good at grappling, and focuses on strength. I also want him not to be weak, but super awesome at it.
Also, I want him to cast bright light spell like Daylight, and not be negatively effected by them.

Why can't I do this?

Dark Archive

you shouln'd.
1) on a Role playing point of view. It's an excellent pitch. The paladin cannot heal himself and he is looking for redemption of his own undead status. May be, his god will gives himaccess to inflict light wound in his spell list. BTW wich god did he choose ?
2) on a crunchy point of view. Dhampir comes with a lot of advantages (moreover in Carrion Crown) that can balances the loss of the self-healing abilities.

my 0.02€

Dark Archive

blackbloodtroll wrote:
Is Lay on Hands noted as positive energy in it's entry?

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9p08

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

You've got options.

If you trust this player and like his character, let him heal. The only other healing he could get is with infernal healing or inflict spells, and is that right for a paladin? And if he's not carrying around an evil cleric or a wand an evil cleric made, then he's going to get killed by the second monster to come around.

And that's pretty stupid of the Lawful Good deities.

Justify it by saying the LG gods are not so stupid, and that they've ensured this unlikely champion of light will have the ability to heal himself. It can come with special clauses (must never be healed by negative energy, when not in combat he must offer healing to others first, never drink blood even if you're really really hankering for it, etc.), but if you shut down a character that you and the player enjoy, just because "The Rules" say so, well, what's more important to the game? You or the rules?

Now, if you don't really care for the character concept, and the player wants to playing it anyway, then go ahead and keep to the official ruling. He'll still be able to heal others, and it's not a total wash. But don't go complaining if he starting carrying around ambiguously eeeevil wands and potions just to heal himself. You can't do much paladin-ing if the party has to watch him nap for a week while he gets hp back.

Now, people complain that this some sort of Special Snowflake entitlement. And it does! And if you want him to play something boring, that's your prerogative. But if there's ever a time to break out the dhampire, it's Carrion Crown (especially Ashes at Dawn!). You can get some fantastic RP'ing hooks out of it.

As a last resort, there's this. it's a low-cost magical item from Gods and Magic that allows worshipers of Urgathoa to be healed by cure and inflict spells. The Gods and Magic book mentions that magic items like this, with special properties that function only for specific worshipers, can be attuned to a new deity with a magical ritual costing 200 gp. This will let him use a wand of cure light to heal himself out of battle, giving him a fighting chance. But introduce it soon (as an item found on a cultist, perhaps), as the player may get tired of trying to survive as a dhampire, and give up on the idea, settling for something much blander.

Hope it helps!


Negative energy is not evil. A goodly-good cleric of Sarenrae can make you an Inflict wand.


Played a celestial sorcerer with a dhampir paladin half-brother. Healed him with Heavenly Fire as an emergency fallback. My oracle cohort also picked up inflict wounds just for him.

Felt good man.


wouldn't allow it... take the rough with the smooth.
wanna be a Paladin Dhampir you have to accept that positive energy will cause damage because you are treated as undead because...well you kinda are!

Its part of being a dhampir... don't want that drawback don't be a dhampir.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Sorry for my previous post. Just being silly.

What exactly do you want from the Dhampir?

Dark Archive

I even will go further. He may lay on hands other caracters but takes the equivalent damages in the process making his lay on hand a real sacrifice. That's what I would call a real Challenge for a player.

Spacelard wrote:

wouldn't allow it... take the rough with the smooth.

wanna be a Paladin Dhampir you have to accept that positive energy will cause damage because you are treated as undead because...well you kinda are!

Its part of being a dhampir... don't want that drawback don't be a dhampir.


Seriously...

If you want the boons you have to live with the minuses. This is a rare and strange combination -- and rightly comes with some rare and strange CHALLENGES. because that's what they are, he's trading one thing for another... don't soften the blow.

And chris is right... in carrion crown this kind of monkeyshines is going to be quite powerful indeed. He should have to pay to play.

Grand Lodge

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Wait.

Just take the Unsanctioned Knowledge feat, and add a bunch of Inflict spells to your spell list.

Bam, problem solved.


r-Kelleg wrote:
I even will go further. He may lay on hands other caracters but takes the equivalent damages in the process making his lay on hand a real sacrifice. That's what I would call a real Challenge for a player.

There's a fine line between making a player accept the natural inherent drawbacks of their unusual character and inventing new drawbacks out of thin air just to screw them over.

Dark Archive

out of thin air ?

After all, the paladin is using his own hand to summon positive energy. But on the other hand (haha) when a "normal" paladin is healing someone else, he is not healed during the process.
I guess, I really enjoy creating hard times for my players *evil grin*


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Wait.

Just take the Unsanctioned Knowledge feat, and add a bunch of Inflict spells to your spell list.

Bam, problem solved.

Yup... that would work.

Inflict spells don't have the [evil] tag and are from the necromancy school... same as Death Ward which is on the Paladin's list. So totally RAW which is always nice :)

So by spending a feat the player can have his PC do what he wants without any special favours. Then he can either buy wands or craft them to his hearts content. Just like any other PC.

EDIT: BTW using Inflict spells on anyone isn't an evil act. As thumping them with a 4' long piece of steel in the head isn't an evil act. If a GM tried pulling that stunt on a Paladin to make him fall from grace then I am afraid you're best not play a Paladin.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

I added a spoiler tag.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / DM looking for advice on a player playing a Dhampir / Paladin All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.