APL+3 is an "epic" encounter for starters, and at low levels it can easily be a TPK. Also, certain monsters can be a handful for certain parties while not as challenging for others. CR is a helpful tool/guide but it's not the ultimate measuring stick. You know what your PCs can handle and what will cause them fits. Design adventures accordingly.
Also, did your fighter roll very poorly for his level 2 hps? His hps seem very low (17) given that he should have 10 from 1st level plus at least +1 or +2 from CON and possibly another +1 from favored class bonus. That puts him at 13 hp at 1st level and bare minimum of 17 hp at 2nd level (assuming 14 CON). Just curious. Good luck!
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At lower levels its a lot more noticable. How many players in the group?
CRs are designed with a party of 4 in non-advantageous environments with 15 point buy. So if you throw something that can fly at a party at level 2 that increases the CR by 1 or 2. If you only have 3 players that makes the APL of the group 1 less. So even if they are level 2 if the party only has 3 players its essentially a CR 1 party.
Hope this helps a little.
Quick check answer the following question.
1)Do you use WBL rules?
1A)If so are all your PC on track and are all on track as party?
This quickest mess up fight. I had party totaly put all magic on PC and he became super tank killed any thing I put infront of him, but if any thing got passed him they killed the party fast.
2)Do you players Build for comabat or role play?
3)As a GM do you build for combat or role play?
3) What is you party mix?
4) How many Players figs? Do they have combat pets?
I had to GM 7 player with 4 pets that 11 Fig on Good guy side to deal with.
5) Do you change the gear of your of your monster?
A kobold with tower shiled and full plate is hard party to deal with almost to hard.
Last all CR are not equal.... IE CR 3 fight amy not be same tought fight for party A as it would be party B. 2 CR 3 orges is CR 5 so is Troll but not the same fight.
In general if you want a balanced encounter, regardless of whether you want it to be hard, easy, or somewhere inbetween, you should NEVER have a single opponent. That goes one of two ways, either it is overwhelmed by the action economy (4+ vs 1) or it is so powerful that it is far too much of a threat to any single party member.
If you want a higher CR threat add MORE monsters, not one bigger badder one.
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CRs are a guide line but at most times, from personal experience, should not be relied on. The easiest way, for me at least as a DM, is to figure the averages of the party and create the combat encounters off that.
Equation used: ac of individual party members added together then divided by number of party members = average ac of party. Average ac of party is the hit range of enemies encountering party.
Equation used: To hit of individual party members added together then divided by number of party members = average to hit of party. Average to hit of party is the ac range of enemies encountering party.
Using the basic formula above helps you, the DM, figure how challenging a certain mob or boss should be for the party to handle.
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I won't deny that the notes I've read so far about not all CRs being equal is quite true. I'm still struggling with how to add incorporeals when no player has a magic weapon and there is only one caster in the group (the cleric would only be capable of harming UNDEAD incorporeals).
Using this as an example, some things are just not meant for some levels. Level 1 and 2 characters are very unlikely to have any real combat way to deal with an incorporeal creature. Enemies with DR 10/adamantine are annoying at mid-level, but practically impossible at low levels (when adamantine can't be afforded). If you want to use these types of things you have to enable your group for them, through gear or levels or both.
Also what Kolokotroni said about multiple creatures. That drow with 4 levels of fighter may be cool, but 3 drow with 1 level of fighter make a more balanced encounter. Of course you can always throw the wraith at them at level 2, so long as you have no delusions about them losing or running away.|
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Yea if you want to make the encounter more challenging the solution is to include more lower CR enemies not just put 1 big bad enemy. That 1 big bad enemy is going to clobber whoever he hits, while the few more lower CRs means the PCs are spending actions controlling the 6 goblins running around rather than all focusing the Orc shaman.
I will also add that low level parties are fragile. You also have to take the actual ability of the players into account.
My suggestion is if you are keeping them at a 15 point buy and not allowing them to have any of their ability scores go below a 10 with only 4 members and no pets then even APL+1 is going to be too much. Really for that group I would run most encounters at APL-2 or APL-1 with boss monsters being APL with some APL-1 monsters on his/her side to even things out. Really, I think you may be gimping them too much, but that is just for my tastes really.
Sorry for not providing details, to answer questions starting from the first:
1. The fighter has 10 constitution, so that makes +11 at level 1 (with favored bonus) and a total of 17 at level 2 (I offered them the chance to take half their d10 instead of roll if they were worried about messing up). I told them no stat below 10 (after racials) because I knew they'd simply try to min-max like mad, which is what's happening now. ... 16 Str/Dex...10 rest
Not Minmaxing. So you are might be paranoid.
Now did the others mixmax because so far it seems like you assume the opposite of reality?
First make sure every one is playing the same game. You will not have much fun it have all role play party and comabat GM or the other way around.
If at level 2 you fighter just got range weapon then make sure start ing comabt range is no more that 60ft.
Second I hope fighter has great AC cause CON of 10 makes me nervous. I would most likely kill it just on accident.
"I won't deny that the notes I've read so far about not all CRs being equal is quite true. I'm still struggling with how to add incorporeals when no player has a magic weapon and there is only one caster in the group (the cleric would only be capable of harming UNDEAD incorporeals)."
Scroll of magic Weapon (25 gp) and or Oil of Magic Weapon (50 gp). The answer 150 gp each player is down. Achemical items in general work since alot of them do engery damage not physical damage.
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First make sure every one is playing the same game. You will not have much fun it have all role play party and comabat GM or the other way around.
If at level 2 you fighter just got range weapon then make sure start ing comabt range is no more that 60ft.
Second I hope fighter has great AC cause CON of 10 makes me nervous. I would most likely kill it just on accident.
"I won't deny that the notes I've read so far about not all CRs being equal is quite true. I'm still struggling with how to add incorporeals when no player has a magic weapon and there is only one caster in the group (the cleric would only be capable of harming UNDEAD incorporeals)."
Scroll of magic Weapon (25 gp) and or Oil of Magic Weapon (50 gp). The answer 150 gp each player is down. Achemical items in general work since alot of them do engery damage not physical damage.
Or holy water. I always try and carry a few of those around.
15 PB and no dumping thats is rough. They are better off with the elite stat array that NPC's use. It is also 15 point buy, but it assumes one score of 8.
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I'd recommend to your fighter to hold off on the +Str items and maybe make a few weapons with alternate materials. Having the different things to overcome DR will ultimately be a better use of money. Silver and Cold Iron should top the list and then make them at least +1 so they bypass the special material AND magic DR. Should be able to pull both of those off for less than getting a Str item.
Creature with 5/Silver.
+2 Str belt nets you 1 damage per attack.
Silver/Mithril Sword nets you 5 damage per attack.
Sure he will have to have some skill points in knowledges so he can get some info from you on what DR they may have with knowledge checks, but long term it will pay off.
@starbuck
If I gave the fighter (don't know about the rest) dump stats, he'd use it to max out his dexterity rather than put points in other stats, for the last four years they've been playing 4e and no one in the group for that entire time ever put points in constitution.@Tom S 820 and ossian666
They're still wearing their starting gear with 850gp in their pockets. They got potions from the treasure generator, useful things (for low levels at least) like mage armor and resistance potions and decided they'd sell it for the gold. The fighter (I keep returning to him because I haven't talked to the other players about their plans for their wealth) is saving it to buy maxed out STR boosting items. The tips on items like scrolls and potions are great and I'll be sure to pass it along.@Crosswind
Actually they're all human, save for the ranger who's a half elf.On a tip to paint how my players are reacting to some pathfinder for the first time after playing 4e for so long:
DM: You should keep a mace handy in case you come across a skeleton (they're fighting undead in the current adventure), doesn't have to be special, even a light mace will get past the DR.
Player: What? I'm supposed to carry an extra melee weapon I'm not going to use all the time?DM: If you use trip, you can reduce the enemy's AC by four, I think he even gets a reduction to his attack roll.
Player: (while fighting three enemies) Yeah, but what about ranged? Did you forget? He'll get +4 AC against them.(Second time I tried the same tip)
DM: If you're having trouble hitting (and yes he was), you can trip to make it easier.
Player: I only get two attacks, I don't want to reduce my DPS by tripping him.EDIT: They're enjoying the story, but for combat I feel like they're not even ready to try preparing for it. Back in 4e, there WERE a lot of useful items, but essentially the only thing they ever focused on was raising damage.
Then it sounds like your characters are not use to how combat in Pathfinder works at all and are having a hard time making the transition from 4e (I know because I went through some of the same things). I would sit them down and stress the differences of the games and that they will have to think outside the box if they are going to go anywhere in Pathfinder. 4e in my experience, while being a very good game, tends to dumb things down quite a bit as far as particulars go in combat compared to Pathfinder.
P.S.-I also really can not stress enough loosening up your restrictions on character creation and point buy especially since 4e gives players a lot more in terms of raw power early on, and if your players are operating based on that assumption then they are going to be very frustrated during a Pathfinder game.
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+2 str item is 4000g. +1 weapon is 2000g. For most uses they do the same thing. Silver is cheap if I remember right, as is non-enchanted cold iron. Of course the step to masterwork gives +1 attack and is needed for enchanting the weapon. If your fighter's first purchase isn't a masterwork weapon he's doing it wrong.
If the "saving up" thing is due to the loss of gold from buying an item then selling for half to buy an upgrade, just let them sell for full value and give them 3/4 treasure (not 1/2 as they would normally just keep and use some of it, such that some treasure is always full value).
Getting back on topic, it doesn't matter what the rules say (big surprise I know)! Make an incorporeal enemy they can hit for half with their mundane weapons. If you want incorporeals but don't want them having magic weapons then why not?
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+2 str item is 4000g. +1 weapon is 2000g. For most uses they do the same thing. Silver is cheap if I remember right, as is non-enchanted cold iron. Of course the step to masterwork gives +1 attack and is needed for enchanting the weapon. If your fighter's first purchase isn't a masterwork weapon he's doing it wrong.
If the "saving up" thing is due to the loss of gold from buying an item then selling for half to buy an upgrade, just let them sell for full value and give them 3/4 treasure (not 1/2 as they would normally just keep and use some of it, such that some treasure is always full value).
Getting back on topic, it doesn't matter what the rules say (big surprise I know)! Make an incorporeal enemy they can hit for half with their mundane weapons. If you want incorporeals but don't want them having magic weapons then why not?
IIRC any special material weapon is automatically masterwork (or at least needs to be made MW).
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Actually, you're doing it exactly right.
You're eyeballing the numbers with your specific party and campaign in mind. Challenge Rating can give you a good ballpark measure of when monsters should be introduced to a campaign, and what monsters' relative power to each other is.
Beyond that, an experienced GM has no use for it. Some game writers and designers will actually fetishistically cram as much challenge into a lowballed CR as possible, and it has dreadful results (I'm thinking her name starts with X)
Ignore all that garbage and keep doing what you're doing: look at the statblocks, look at the PCs. Play it out in your head. It's really hard to go wrong that way.
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IIRC any special material weapon is automatically masterwork (or at least needs to be made MW).+2 str item is 4000g. +1 weapon is 2000g. For most uses they do the same thing. Silver is cheap if I remember right, as is non-enchanted cold iron. Of course the step to masterwork gives +1 attack and is needed for enchanting the weapon. If your fighter's first purchase isn't a masterwork weapon he's doing it wrong.
If the "saving up" thing is due to the loss of gold from buying an item then selling for half to buy an upgrade, just let them sell for full value and give them 3/4 treasure (not 1/2 as they would normally just keep and use some of it, such that some treasure is always full value).
Getting back on topic, it doesn't matter what the rules say (big surprise I know)! Make an incorporeal enemy they can hit for half with their mundane weapons. If you want incorporeals but don't want them having magic weapons then why not?
Apart from alchemical silver (the exception) I believe you're correct. I think the point we're both making is that a +2 str belt is not the choice first purchase, focus on the weapon(s).
If you've been swayed and think their stats are too low, you can give them stat increases from a deity as a quest reward, hand picked by you to increase the stats you think they need more of.
Sorry for not providing details, to answer questions starting from the first:
1. I told them no stat below 10 (after racials) because I knew they'd simply try to min-max like mad,
This is basically lowering their point buy by 4-8 or so depending on class. I'm not a fan of dump stats either, but just banning them WILL lead to characters being underpowered. A 15 pt buy with no stats below 10 is like ~8 point buy IMO.
22 pt. buy. They may dump stats how much they want, but gain no extra points at all for stats below 10. Basically, those that want to roleplay characters with flaws drop them lower - those wanting to "min-max" don't drop anything below 10 anyway.
Oh, and I tend to see that 22 pt buy as a 15 pt buy when designing encounters.
3. Yep, I spent hours calculating their loot when they levelled up to make sure they can reach the amount for the next level, I was short about 150gp per member but as it was, they didn't buy anything with their loot. They just took whichever items they can use (like the fighter FINALLY picked up a ranged weapon).
WBL is a decent guideline, but do they have what they WANT for their characters? If you're a 3rd level fighter and have only found a ring of Feather Falling WBL will cause it to look okay while it isn't.
Other than that, they seem to be pretty new to the game (there's quite a lot of difference in tactics between 4e and Pathfinder from what I've understood).
Generally, it's better to have loads of low-CR encounters rather than a few big ones. And as has been said, CR+3 is an Epic encounter, and players shouldn't count on getting everyone out alive if they try to fight something like that.
So, short list:
- Give them a higher PB if you're going to restrict dumping.
- Many low-CR monsters > one high-CR monster in an encounter.
- Many low-CR encounters > a few high-CR encounters in a day (generally).
- Take into consideration that they're a bit new with the system. TWF is hard to do effectively on a 15 pt buy - with no allowance of dump stats it's almost impossible.
EDIT: Also, on a side note, while dumping stats is standard procedure if going for survival, no sane character will dump FOUR stats. Even characters designated as "single ability dependant" (SAD) will usually only have two or so stats that they can really dump. If you allow dump stats and the fighter goes Str20/Dex16/Con10/Int7/Wis7/Cha7, it'll be a dead fighter in no time due to mediocre hit points and abysmal Wisdom.
EDIT2: As Roberta Yang points out, allowing dump stats might lead to the player power gaming his characters stat to be effective within his concept. NOT allowing dump stats in this case leads to forcing him to either 1. be ineffective or 2 power gaming his character concept. How the second is better than the first I don't know.
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I told him that his best bet for damage would be 2handers but he said dual-wielding and being a weapons expert was part of his character concept so I went with it
Wait, remind me why you were worried they'd just minmax everything? Someone who wants to play a fighter with 10 CON and who refuses to choose the most damage-efficient route because he doesn't like the flavor is pretty clearly not minmaxing.
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I told him that his best bet for damage would be 2handers but he said dual-wielding and being a weapons expert was part of his character concept so I went with itWait, remind me why you were worried they'd just minmax everything? Someone who wants to play a fighter with 10 CON and who refuses to choose the most damage-efficient route because he doesn't like the flavor is pretty clearly not minmaxing.
^^ this. If I was playing in your game and was a minmaxer I would play a barbarian, put str and con at 16, take power attack, get a falchion, and rofl at the other PCs. He might minmax his stats, but that's just to make his concept (which isn't minmaxed) work with 15 PB.
Greatsword is better than falchion at low levels. Just a tip ;)
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You need to tell your players the trick to a good character is well rounded stats. Every stat even for a fighter has a purpose some way or another. Even Cha is a benefit to a fighter. If you have a smart player playing fighter cha is 1 of the stats they dont dump. Cha for 1 helps out of game combat with diplo, bluff and intimidate roles and there is some fun feat combinations with intimidate that makes it insane in combat. Concerning wis its will saves flat out all fighters should have a decent wis since will is there worst save same goes for dex which is also its armor class. Int is of course number of skills but its also needed for combat expertise if he plans on fighting smart when the fight gets to out of hand. Either way each stat has its own use to all characters though those uses are not as great as for the guy next to him they still have use. A D&D game is not all about the combat its also about the rp interaction with both npc and pc.
Sorry for the rant or if that derailed the conversation a bit
Just look at it this way as the DM if they want to break there characters let them but give them fair warning that you will not hold any thing back and will let things play out however the dice may roll. So when that encounter with an enemy wizard rolls along which it will he should not QQ about his incredibly low will save.
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First of all, to answer your question, yes, you are grossly overdoing encounter CRs. The good news is, you came here to ask, so the problem is completely fixable.
First of all, every character class is designed to have one or more dump stats. You aren't doing some sort of weasily game-manipulation if 3/4 Fighters you run into have CHA 8. I mean, take a look at the Fighter:
Strength: With the exception of the super rare Dervish Fighter, basically all Fighters need Str, and 14 is about the low watermark for functionality. You want 16.
Dexterity: Same as before. One would think that a tower-shield wielding full-plate wearer could go without Dex, but sadly, all fighters need this too, due to RFLX Saves, Ranged Attack rolls, etc. 14 is probably good, 12 isn't.
Constitution: Fighters usually take this as their second-highest Stat after STR, because they need to soak up all the damage they can't magically prevent. Another 14-16, hopefully. A 10 Con Fighter isn't going to live very long, and probably has a higher RFLX Save than FORT. Not good.
Now, 15 point buy is more like 17 point buy for most people, because they drop a Stat. Since you seem dead set against people doing that (and an 8 is not a horrible dump, either), your players have to work with only a couple of suitable options:
The one that immediately came to mind for me as best for the Fighter is:
14/16/14/10/10/10, putting the Human +2 in Dex.
Instead, your guy went:
16/16/10/10/10/10, Human +2 in one of the 16s. Is +2 Str worth -4 Con?
If you did let your players take an 8, this guy would probably just go:
10/20/10/10/10/8, which is a terrible character.
In short, I would go ahead and let your players take 8s if they wanted, while explaining to them that D&Dv3.5 is different than D&Dv4.0. They should totally optimize their characters, but they don't yet know how. Let them make whatever they want, and then exploit weaknesses. Make them play smarter.
And for god's sakes tell the Fighter that whenever he misses due to not Flanking, duel-wielding, etc, he's doing 0 DPR.
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If want to teach comabt tatics to folk that new to pathfinder then do it. Do not tell them show them run the fight so they learn as players.
Attack them with Skeliton and Zombie to show the diffent typs of DR.
Attack them with wolf to show flanks and trips,
Attack them with Minaors to show Bull rush.
Attack then with Swap of wasp to show they need boom power.
Attack them Manticore to show power of 3D and flying shooter.
Attack them with Shadow to show the power of incorporeal
Attack them with elemental to show them DR - and whirlwind power
Attack them hellhound to show breath weapon.
Attack them ghouls pack attacks and paralysis(hell add 2 level of rouge and Make it CR 3 and see how nasty it is with with 2 plain ghoul friends)
Troll to show power of regeneration and rend.
Note all example are core monster with CR of 5 or less so they should be fine for APL 2.
If you want to teach combat tatics to folks that are new to pathfinder then do it. Do not tell them, show them. Run the fight so they learn as players.
Attack them with Skeletons and Zombies to show the different types of DR.
Attack them with wolf to show flanking and tripping.
Attack them with Minotaurs to show Bull rush.
Attack then with a Swarm of wasps to show they need boom power.
Attack them a Manticore to show the power of 3D and flying shooter.
Attack them with a Shadow to show the power of incorporeal
Attack them with elementals to show them DR - and whirlwind power
Attack them a hellhound to show breath weapon.
Attack them with the ghouls' pack attacks and paralysis (hell add 2 levels of rogue and make it CR 3 and see how nasty it is with with 2 plain ghoul friends)
Attack with a Troll to show the power of regeneration and rend.
Note all example are core monster with CR of 5 or less so they should be fine for APL 2.
(edited the quote for clarity)
That is ingenious, Tom.
I'm considering using this as a "gauntlet" of sorts now, for new PCs.
You could do worse than to sit a party of new players and have them fight through each of these encounters as a "training wheels" session. And let them die. Call it "tutorial mode."
The players that come out the other end will be ready.
That is ingenious, Tom.
I'm considering using this as a "gauntlet" of sorts now, for new PCs.
You could do worse than to sit a party of new players and have them fight through each of these encounters as a "training wheels" session. And let them die. Call it "tutorial mode."
The players that come out the other end will be ready
Thank you for the edit and praise.
Hell add 2 or 3 trap and that should be enough exp to get party of 4 or 5 players form level 2 to 3. It may be littel undead heavey but it would be fun night or two.
Again the whole list is classic monster to fight that I have fought over and over again.
I run varaition of the wolf fight evey level in every game I run.
Last one was 4 Grindylow figher 1 with Agile Maneuvers as fighter feat
4 CR 1 it was great fight 3 attacks 1 weapon, 1 bite, and 1 trip vs PC 1 or 2.
choose one of these arrays and tell the group to arrange it as desired. the focus was on minimizing weaknesses rather than maximizing strengths. and each only has a single dump stat. none of these arrays factor racial bonuses of any kind and you would have to add them in yourself.
15 point array
15; 14; 13; 12; 12; 7;
20 point version
15; 14; 14; 14; 12; 7;
25 point version
16; 15; 14; 14; 12; 7;
30 point version
16; 16; 15; 14; 12; 7;
(Take this with a grain of salt but) you might consider killing the party with a numerically weaker, but tactically superior, group in a situation where a TPK won't mean the end of the campaign. So, something like an arena fight where they're sure to be healed up afterwards, or a fight against some other good guys who won't finish them off or leave them to die.
Have the weaker party use decent gear, plenty of consumables (potions, scrolls and wands can make a huge difference), alchemical items, etc. Have them trip people, flank, and all the other stuff your party is ignoring.
Again though, take that with a grain of salt. It might work, or it might drive everyone off.