| 4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
As this seems to be a good time to draw some Developers attention to errata issues....
From Spellcombat:At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.
From Ranged Spellstrike:At 4th level, a myrmidarch can use spellstrike to cast a single-target touch attack ranged spell and deliver it through a ranged weapon attack. Even if the spell can normally affect multiple targets, only a single missile, ray, or effect accompanies the attack. At 11th level, a myrmidarch using a multiple-target spell with this ability may deliver one ray or line of effect with each attack when using a full-attack action, up to the maximum allowed by the spell (in the case of ray effects). Any effects not used in the round the spell is cast are lost.
This ability replaces spell recall and improved spell recall.
The bolded parts obviously don´t work together by RAW,so can a Myrmidarch do Spell Combat with a Bow or not.
Woud be nice if the people that are interested in this question could hit the FAQ button
I am not seeing the contradiction.
This is the part you should be focused on.
At 4th level, a myrmidarch can use spellstrike to cast a single-target touch attack ranged spell and deliver it through a ranged weapon attack.
This appears to forgo the need for spell combat when using spellstrike with a ranged weapon. That is, ranged spellstrike encompasses within it the ability to cast spells while using a ranged weapon. With the added bonus that at higher levels you can deliver multiple effects in a single round through multiple ranged attacks.
If you read again closely you will notice:At 11th level, a myrmidarch using a multiple-target spell with this ability may deliver one ray or line of effect with each attack when using a full-attack action, up to the maximum allowed by the spell (in the case of ray effects). Any effects not used in the round the spell is cast are lost.
You cannot make a full attack action and spellstrike in the same round,so either the Myrmidarch can use Spell Combat with a Bow or he cannot use his 11th level Class feature,
If you read again closely you will notice:At 11th level, a myrmidarch using a multiple-target spell with this ability may deliver one ray or line of effect with each attack when using a full-attack action, up to the maximum allowed by the spell (in the case of ray effects). Any effects not used in the round the spell is cast are lost.
You cannot make a full attack action and spellstrike in the same round,so either the Myrmidarch can use Spell Combat with a Bow or he cannot use his 11th level Class feature,
Which do you think is more likely?
People seem to forget that exceptions can happen. Like Zen Archer with Flurry.
Yeah I'm still not seeing it. As Brain in a Jar said, contradictions happen. Usually that's what class abilities and feats do: They let you do something the regular rules will not let you do.
Thats exactly my reasoning ,but by RAW it´s not permitted and thats what FAq´s and erratas are for.
I am still not seeing how RAW is not allowing it. Could you explain it?
You cannot make a full attack action and spellstrike in the same round,so either the Myrmidarch can use Spell Combat with a Bow or he cannot use his 11th level Class feature,
Not true. A vanilla magus can cast a touch spell and do nothing in the rest of the round. In the following round he may make a full attack action in conjunction with spellstrike to deliver the spell on the first attack of his full attack that hits.
Spellstrike has no bearing on what actions you can take during a round. The only thing that could be in question here is can you cast a ranged touch attack spell and still full attack in the same round with a ranged weapon. Spell combat has no bearing here because spell combat uses melee weapons - except as an example of how the now 'similar' ability called ranged spellstrike works. Ranged spellstrike could be errata'd to clarify this, though intent seems clear. Ranged spellstrike works very much like spell combat and (non-ranged) spellstrike combined, but with a ranged weapon instead of a melee weapon.
Spell combat (abbreviated): cast a spell and make your full iterative attacks with a melee weapon as a full round action at a -2 to hit.
Ranged spellstrike (abbreviated - apparent intent): cast a spell (and if 11th level or higher) make your full iterative attacks with a ranged weapon as a full round action (without the -2 penalty to hit that spell combat has).
I agree it could be errata'd, but I feel the intent is plain enough that it doesn't need to be. Lots of things could be FAQ'd/errata'd, but many don't actually need to be as the intent is pretty clear - they are clear in my perception at least :).
Ok this is getting wierd,so for clarification:
I´m convinced a Myrmidarch can Spell Combat with a Bow but when I stated that oppinion in several threads on these boards ,I got bashed by people.I disagreed with them but by RAW they have a point.
So here is their argumentation:
A Magus can only Spell Combat with a Light or one-handed Melee Weapon,and the Myrmidarch Archetype doesn´t change that.
But
To use the 11th level Ranged Spellstrike you have to Spellstrike and Spellcombat in the same round.
So please FAQ this
Ok this is getting wierd,so for clarification:
I´m convinced a Myrmidarch can Spell Combat with a Bow but when I stated that oppinion in several threads on these boards ,I got bashed by people.I disagreed with them but by RAW they have a point.So here is their argumentation:
A Magus can only Spell Combat with a Light or one-handed Melee Weapon,and the Myrmidarch Archetype doesn´t change that.But
To use the 11th level Ranged Spellstrike you have to Spellstrike and Spellcombat in the same round.
So please FAQ this
You can use 11th Ranged Spellstrike with Spellcombat since you can use Spellstrike with Spellcombat. The Myrmidarch alters how Spellstrike works.
Also its the entire point of how the archetype works, being able to use Ranged Weapons in Spellstrike.
If it didn't work like that(Spellcombat + Bow) then what would be the point of the ability at 11th?
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You're all actually missing the bigger contradiction in this ability.
At 4th level, a myrmidarch can use spellstrike to cast a single-target touch attack ranged spell and deliver it through a ranged weapon attack. Even if the spell can normally affect multiple targets, only a single missile, ray, or effect accompanies the attack.
At 11th level, a myrmidarch using a multiple-target spell with this ability may deliver one ray or line of effect with each attack when using a full-attack action, up to the maximum allowed by the spell (in the case of ray effects). Any effects not used in the round the spell is cast are lost. This ability replaces spell recall and improved spell recall.
At 4th level, you're specifically restricted to single-target spells. So you can never use the 11th level ability because you still can't use it with multi-target spells.
</literal>
Oh Boy...
You don´t have to explain the intent to me.In this thread you can see my standpoint and some of the arguments against it.
And still nobody has hit the FAQ button:(
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At 4th level, a myrmidarch can use spellstrike to cast a single-target touch attack ranged spell and deliver it through a ranged weapon attack.
Okay, so Ranged Spellstrike functions like spellstrike. Let's check Spellstrike:
At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon’s critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier. See FAQ/Errata at right for more information.
You'll notice that there is nothing about requiring that the magus have a free hand for this ability. The text you are quoting comes from Spell Combat, not Spellstrike, and Spell Combat has no bearing on the functionality of this ability.
The 11th level ability specifically refers to this variation of Spellstrike, not Spell Combat. Therefore, a Magus can use his 11th level Ranged Spellstrike to fire multiple rays from a spell through his weapon.
@Bobson:
Even if the spell can normally affect multiple targets, only a single missile, ray, or effect accompanies the attack.
This line limits the number of rays fired by multi-target ray spells. The 11th level ability modifies this statement, allowing each ray to be fired separately.
@Bobson:Even if the spell can normally affect multiple targets, only a single missile, ray, or effect accompanies the attack.This line limits the number of rays fired by multi-target ray spells. The 11th level ability modifies this statement, allowing each ray to be fired separately.
Taken literally, that line is meaningless. A spell which is a "single-target touch attack ranged spell" will never be a multi-target spell, by definition. So restricting a single target spell so that if it normally affected multiple targets it now only affects one, does exactly nothing to it.
Yay for literal readings.
Thanks BtL. I was wondering what was going on. I guess it does need errata. It should have verbage specifically calling out a rules exception.
Oh Boy...
You don´t have to explain the intent to me.In this thread you can see my standpoint and some of the arguments against it.
Ha, that's somewhat amusing.
I suspect the pedantic arguments came from your statement here in that thread.
Of course they can use Spell Combat and ranged spellstrike together,in fact they actually have to ,read the description of ranged spellstrike again.
They state you cannot use spell combat with a bow. They are correct. Ranged spellstrike, however, does not require the use of spell combat to work. It simply works on its own without the need for spell combat to kick in.
Separate the abilities out, independent of each other, and there is no problem with the archetype in this regard.
Thanks BtL. I was wondering what was going on. I guess it does need errata. It should have verbage specifically calling out a rules exception.
That's not actually the point that the OP raised, but it's one that jumped out at me when I went to go look it up. The OP's issue is basically that Ranged Spellstrike is written such that you seem to need a full-round action to actually shoot off all the rays, which then conflicts with the full round action you need in order to use Spell Combat, so you can't actually cast a spell to activate it.
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@Bobson:Even if the spell can normally affect multiple targets, only a single missile, ray, or effect accompanies the attack.This line limits the number of rays fired by multi-target ray spells. The 11th level ability modifies this statement, allowing each ray to be fired separately.Taken literally, that line is meaningless. A spell which is a "single-target touch attack ranged spell" will never be a multi-target spell, by definition. So restricting a single target spell so that if it normally affected multiple targets it now only affects one, does exactly nothing to it.
Yay for literal readings.
Incorrect. Looking at the spell Scorching Ray (which I assume is the SOLE spell this ability was designed for), you can either have a single target or multiple targets, which makes the spell simultaneously single-target and multi-target (Schroedinger's Scorching Ray?).
As such, at 4th level, a Magus COULD use Scorching Ray through a ranged attack, since it fulfills the criteria of being a single-target ranged touch attack. At later levels (i.e., level 11), Scorching Ray can be a multi-target spell, which could be used through Ranged Spellstrike if all of the rays were fired at a single target, fulfilling the "single target ranged touch attack" requirement.
It's like the geometric idea that all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. I won't say all, because new spells are always being added, but almost all Multi-Target touch attack spells can also be single-target, while not all single-target touch attack spells can be multi-target.
And yes, you cannot used Ranged Spellstrike with Spell Combat, but the 11th level ability functions independently of Spell Combat, so you may full attack and cast a ranged touch spell as part of the attack (but you CANNOT cast any other spell).
@Bobson:Even if the spell can normally affect multiple targets, only a single missile, ray, or effect accompanies the attack.This line limits the number of rays fired by multi-target ray spells. The 11th level ability modifies this statement, allowing each ray to be fired separately.Taken literally, that line is meaningless. A spell which is a "single-target touch attack ranged spell" will never be a multi-target spell, by definition. So restricting a single target spell so that if it normally affected multiple targets it now only affects one, does exactly nothing to it.
Yay for literal readings.
Incorrect. Looking at the spell Scorching Ray (which I assume is the SOLE spell this ability was designed for), you can either have a single target or multiple targets, which makes the spell simultaneously single-target and multi-target (Schroedinger's Scorching Ray?).
As such, at 4th level, a Magus COULD use Scorching Ray through a ranged attack, since it fulfills the criteria of being a single-target ranged touch attack. At later levels (i.e., level 11), Scorching Ray can be a multi-target spell, which could be used through Ranged Spellstrike if all of the rays were fired at a single target, fulfilling the "single target ranged touch attack" requirement.
It's like the geometric idea that all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. I won't say all, because new spells are always being added, but almost all Multi-Target touch attack spells can also be single-target, while not all single-target touch attack spells can be multi-target.
And yes, you cannot used Ranged Spellstrike with Spell Combat, but the 11th level ability functions independently of Spell Combat, so you may full attack and cast a ranged touch spell as part of the attack (but you CANNOT cast any other spell).
+1... Well said. I agree with this as well.
I totally see where Sleet Storm is coming from.
Normally, a caster that casts a Touch spell gets a free touch as part of casting the spell in the round it is cast. They could also Hold the Charge to make touch attacks in following rounds.
The Magus' Spellstrike ability allows you to replace this touch, during the round the spell is cast or latter by Holding the Charge, with a melee weapon attack to discharge the spell.
Myrmidarch's Ranged Spellstrike requires you to use a "single-target touch attack ranged spell", which isn't a thing. It is either Touch, or Ranged Touch. These things are different.
Assuming they mean a Ranged Touch, you can't hold the charge.
Ranged Touch Spells in Combat: Some spells allow you to make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. These attacks are made as part of the spell and do not require a separate action. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively. Unless otherwise noted, ranged touch attacks cannot be held until a later turn.
So it works fine at 4th level. You cast the spell, and instead of making your regular free ranged touch attack, you make a ranged weapon attack.
But the issue comes at 11th level.
At 11th level, a myrmidarch using a multiple-target spell with this ability may deliver one ray or line of effect with each attack when using a full-attack action, up to the maximum allowed by the spell (in the case of ray effects). Any effects not used in the round the spell is cast are lost.
You can't take a full attack action in the same round you cast the spell. And since you can't hold the charge on Ranged Touch spells, and any effect not used in the round the spell is cast is lost, you can't use it on later rounds.
So either the Myrmidarch should be able to use Spell Combat with a bow (to enable casting a spell and full attacking in the same round), or the reference to a Full Attack action should be removed (and it would just say you make one ranged weapon attack in place of each ray).
Either option would make the ability work. But since Spell Combat is not changed by the archetype, you can't just assume they intended it to work with the bow.
Looking at it a different way, if a caster casts Scorching Ray with one ray, what action did he take?
Cast a spell. The ranged touch attack is part of that, not a separate Attack action. The Magus replaces this touch attack with a ranged weapon attack.
If a caster casts Scorching Ray and gets 3 rays, what action did he take?
Still just Cast a Spell. All three ranged touch attacks are part of it, not a Full Attack action. So why does Ranged Spellstrike reference a Full Attack action? He should just replace each ray with its own ranged weapon attack.
Or failing that, he has to be able to Spellcombat with a bow, so he can cast and take a Full Attack action in the same round.
Although, a Dagger-Pistol or Sword-Pistol would be both a "light or one handed melee weapon" for Spell Combat AND allow for Ranged Spellstrike.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I assume the intent is for spell combat to function for them while they use a ranged weapon.
That is an assumption, of course.
But if I DM for a player who ever goes this route, that'd be how I handle this badly written archetype. Simply because it makes the character play smoothly, instead of having some weird clunky mechanics. (And some that simply don't function)
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Hi
Yes the question is indeed whether my myrmidarch can use spell combat with his bow?
It suggests this in the text as stated (oh so many times), but the spell combat text hasn't been amended or clarified in the archetype.
As for multiple touch attacks - Frostbite is a multi-attack touch spell. I use it with the reach spell (whatever it's called) feat, which ups it to a 2nd lvl spell.
At 18th lvl it's 18 attacks doing extra D6+18 cold subdual damage!
(I typically have 5 attacks/rnd including haste & rapid shot, with usual penalties. Each does the extra damage, but once all 18 'charges' finish it reverts to 'normal').*
Thanks
Paul H
* Normal in this case is +4 Axiomatic/Holy/Evil Outsider Bane Comp Longbow. Presumably can't take this above an effective +10 cost bow, even with Magus bonuses?
Ignore myrmidarch. Get Heroes of the Street and use the new Eldritch Archer magus archetype.