I concur with switching to human. You can claim the blood of angels if you wish. He can't "nerf" roleplay.
Maybe when he realizes that you lost next to nothing in the deal he'll reconsider. But that's doubtful.
Design Manager
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Point of order: You're assuming that "Blood of Angels" is in play. Most of the discussion up to this point has been about the base Aasimar. Most of the Aasimar variants do get a healthy boost above the standard races thanks to getting better stat distributions (Not many classes want high Wis and Cha) and a better Spell-like ability (or access to the chart)Yes I am. I've seen several players create new Aasimar for PFS recently and all of them were referencing the new material from "Blood of Angels".
If they own the book they have the right to use it in PFS, so yes it's a valid assumption. I created an Illend flavored Bard with bonuses to dex, charisma and performance. There's a lot of front end bonuses on there compared to a Human Bard.
But a human bard will be able to jump into Dervish Dance or Two-Weapon Fighting and improve his melee damage much faster than the Aasimar will because of his Bonus Feat, or push himself a full step ahead on archery feats to bump the power and number of his ranged attacks. His skill bonuses will narrow and then quickly surpass the gap created by the Illend's front-loaded bonus.
Really, Humans are the most powerful race.
Any thing an Aasamir can do, a human can do better.
Humans can give up their bonus feat for an additional +2 to any stat.
The only big boost to the Aasamir, was the Scion of Humanity alternate racial trait.
I would disagree a lot. A human would have to give up any reason for possibly taking a human (extra feat, extra skill point per level) just to come in the same ballpark. They'd still be down energy resistance, non-Humanoid resistance, Darkvision, the ability to get an at will Fly speed (10th level feat for Aasimar).
But a human bard will be able to jump into Dervish Dance or Two-Weapon Fighting and improve his melee damage much faster than the Aasimar will because of his Bonus Feat, and his skill bonuses will narrow and then quickly surpass the gap created by the Illend's front-loaded bonus.
Um, huh?
You can only take dervish dance at 3rd due to skill requirements so both races are even there. TWF can both be taken at first level so no advantage there either.
Perhaps it's archery you are thinking of?
But a human bard will be able to jump into Dervish Dance or Two-Weapon Fighting and improve his melee damage much faster than the Aasimar will because of his Bonus Feat, or push himself a full step ahead on archery feats to bump the power and number of his ranged attacks. His skill bonuses will narrow and then quickly surpass the gap created by the Illend's front-loaded bonus.
Can't really get into Dervish Dance any Quicker, you'll both be 3rd level due to the skill point requirement.
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Design Manager
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I would disagree a lot. A human would have to give up any reason for possibly taking a human (extra feat, extra skill point per level) just to come in the same ballpark. They'd still be down energy resistance, non-Humanoid resistance, Darkvision, the ability to get an at will Fly speed (10th level feat for Aasimar).Really, Humans are the most powerful race.
Any thing an Aasamir can do, a human can do better.
Humans can give up their bonus feat for an additional +2 to any stat.
The only big boost to the Aasamir, was the Scion of Humanity alternate racial trait.
A human could use his bonus feat to take Racial Heritage and gain the ability to take any Aasimar feat he wanted while maintaining his skill bonuses and his ability to drop his stat wherever he pleases. He now gets to keep the benefit of being affected by spells like Enlarge Person, while gaining access to the whole suite of Aasimar feats. Pretty nice in my opinion.
That extra skill point allowing him to get his class skill bonus in his full set of class skills 3 levels sooner than the Aasimar could conceivably do it, and being a full skill set ahead of the Aasimar at every level until 7th (and continuing to have better skills after that) is nice as well.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
How about if your GM has issues with a race, you work with him instead of being a jack hole as has been suggested by a few players here.
GM's have the right to nerf/restrict/forbid anything that they see might be an issue in THEIR game.
Bring up the problem diplomatically, present your points, and if your first choice isn't going to work, then design something that will.
Plenty of options out there to choose from that won't wreck your continued friendship with this GM and your group.
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Design Manager
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But a human bard will be able to jump into Dervish Dance or Two-Weapon Fighting and improve his melee damage much faster than the Aasimar will because of his Bonus Feat, and his skill bonuses will narrow and then quickly surpass the gap created by the Illend's front-loaded bonus.Um, huh?
You can only take dervish dance at 3rd due to skill requirements so both races are even there. TWF can both be taken at first level so no advantage there either.
Perhaps it's archery you are thinking of?
Bards aren't proficient with Scimitars, a requirement for Dervish Dance. A human bard and an Aasimar bard will both need to gain weapon proficiency in scimitars and take Weapon Finesse before taking Dervish Dance. For the Aasimar, this means taking a feat for proficiency at 1st, Weapon Finesse at 3rd, and not gaining Dervish Dance until 6th.
The human can spend his bonus feat to take the weapon proficiency and his normal feat for Weapon Finesse to be perfectly on track for a 3rd level acquisition of Dervish Dance. If the human really wanted to, he could take a one level dip in Fighter and have Weapon Finesse, Arcane Strike, and Dervish Dance at level 2.
I am not impressed by the race myself. I think a human, half-orc, or even a dwarf makes just as good a cleric.
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I would disagree a lot. A human would have to give up any reason for possibly taking a human (extra feat, extra skill point per level) just to come in the same ballpark. They'd still be down energy resistance, non-Humanoid resistance, Darkvision, the ability to get an at will Fly speed (10th level feat for Aasimar).Really, Humans are the most powerful race.
Any thing an Aasamir can do, a human can do better.
Humans can give up their bonus feat for an additional +2 to any stat.
The only big boost to the Aasamir, was the Scion of Humanity alternate racial trait.
Fly is available at 5th, for most parties.
Let me show you you what the Human can get:
First, Racial Heritage feat opens tons of doors, allowing:
Spell resistance.
Darkvision.
A prehensile tongue.
Can take the form of a fox as if under the effects of beast shape II.
Fly speed.
Breath Weapon.
Tail Attack.
Spit poison attack.
Two Claws.
Take the form of a Large black bird resembling a raven.
And many others.
But a human bard will be able to jump into Dervish Dance or Two-Weapon Fighting and improve his melee damage much faster than the Aasimar will because of his Bonus Feat, and his skill bonuses will narrow and then quickly surpass the gap created by the Illend's front-loaded bonus.Um, huh?
You can only take dervish dance at 3rd due to skill requirements so both races are even there. TWF can both be taken at first level so no advantage there either.
Perhaps it's archery you are thinking of?
Bards aren't proficient with Scimitars, a requirement for Dervish Dance. A human bard and an Aasimar bard will both need to gain weapon proficiency in scimitars and take Weapon Finesse before taking Dervish Dance. For the Aasimar, this means taking a feat for proficiency at 1st, Weapon Finesse at 3rd, and not gaining Dervish Dance until 6th.
The human can spend his bonus feat to take the weapon proficiency and his normal feat for Weapon Finesse to be perfectly on track for a 3rd level acquisition of Dervish Dance. If the human really wanted to, he could take a one level dip in Fighter and have Weapon Finesse, Arcane Strike, and Dervish Dance at level 2.
Or you could just take the trait Heirloom Weapon (Scimitar proficiency) and not bother burning a feat for either one. Or wield an Agile rapier.
And if the human bard is getting a level of fighter next level why is he bothering with the proficiency?
None of what you mentioned puts a human bard over, well, any other kind of bard. It can be argued a halfling is actually better off than the human due to having stat bonuses in the right places, better AC, and an inarguably good bonus to saves and skills that bards may value.
You can make an argument for archers who want to get rapid/precise shot out of the way ASAP. Or for bards taking off feats like toughness (granting more hp than the aasimar bard).
Add that you can always just take the dervish dancer archetype and the whole idea of the feat limitation just disappears for that combat style on bards.
I have a player about to play an aasimar cleric. I had him build it using the race builder and a 10 point buy. He gets daylight, stat bonus, skill bonus, and loses resistance as well as the bonus language.
I think the resistance is the biggest issue, the other stuff pretty well evens out.
The 10 point buy had to be approved by me, and it could not veer from the basic abilities of the aasimar.
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Fly is available at 5th, for most parties.
At will? I doubt it. This board LOVES doing that. Just because someone can do it MAYBE once a day, they'll try to pass that off as just as useful as being able to do the same thing at will. There is a HUGE difference.
Let me show you you what the Human can get:First, Racial Heritage feat opens tons of doors, allowing:...
And many others.
Cool, so now you've wasted your only benefit of being human, the extra feat, to take something the Aasimar gets for free, how exactly is that an advantage? You see what I'm saying? You're saying a human is the most powerful becuase they can use resources to do what another race can do without using any resources. That's assuming you took the Bonus feat and not the extra +2 to stats. If you did that, what is the Aasimar doing while you're wasting your feats on trying to catch up to what the Aasimar can already do? Making his class better, and as a result becoming more powerful.
The only times I see a human being better off is if they're a spontaneous caster. Being able to add an extra spell known at each level is HUGE.
Are not some of the core races higher than 10 RP?
The dwarf is 11 point I believe, I think the gnome might be as well.
10 point is a nice place to go for close balance. You have to be pretty judicious still, since you can make a broken race with 10 points.
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Design Manager
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<edited for space>
And if the human bard is getting a level of fighter next level why is he bothering with the proficiency?<edited for space>
He's not, if you actually read the text you'll see that I listed him as having Weapon Finesse, Arcane Strike, and Dervish Dance.
The human bard still has better skills, something that people have a tendency to highly undervalue, and the ability to take Racial Heritage, a feat which essentially opens up the feats of any other race for him to acquire, removing everything but the core racial benefits of a given race as a positive bonus.Feats and skills count for a lot, especially at low levels. Your front-loaded Aasimar will be two skill points behind starting at 2nd level (a potential difference in skill capability of as much as +8 in the human's favor) and a full feat behind right from first. All thing being equal, the human has an edge on capability in combat if he chooses right from first level, and in skills from 2nd level forward.
The human bard still has better skills, something that people have a tendency to highly undervalue, and the ability to take Racial Heritage, a feat which essentially opens up the feats of any other race for him to acquire, removing everything but the core racial benefits of a given race as a positive bonus.
Feats and skills count for a lot, especially at low levels. Your front-loaded Aasimar will be two skill points behind starting at 2nd level (a potential difference in skill capability of as much as +8 in the human's favor) and a full feat behind right from first. All thing being equal, the human has an edge on capability in combat if he chooses right from first level, and in skills from 2nd level forward.
The skills are a fair argument in the human's favor particularly when put next to versatile performance which effectively doubles every skill point of investment.
However combat capability is too circumstantial to make any kind of fair judgment where race is concerned. You do not have perfect knowledge of the future so you may find your choice wrong just as often as right. In a sense the same applies to the aasimar's resistances, immunities and darkvision however they tend to cover more ground than a single feat might.
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Are not some of the core races higher than 10 RP?The dwarf is 11 point I believe, I think the gnome might be as well.
10 point is a nice place to go for close balance. You have to be pretty judicious still, since you can make a broken race with 10 points.
There is nothing you can buy with 10 points that makes the game unplayable.
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Theres nothing in the game that makes 15 points unplayable. This whole discussion and nerf is quite frankly silly. I love that one argument against Aasimar is the free language. I don't know what I'd do if the GM told me that part of what made my race unplayable was the one bonus racial language I started with...I may wet myself in laughter.
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Have those declaring such grand power actually played with the races?
I've played just a couple of sessions with a 2nd-level tiefling cleric. He feels pretty strong, but I also pulled together about 5-6 different sources to make the character, so.... yeah. Take from that what you will. :/
Theres nothing in the game that makes 15 points unplayable.
I would argue that the standard adventure path module makes 15-point buy unplayable.
I think he was talking about 15 race points.
lol. That too then.
We have yet to make it past the second adventure in an adventure path intact. Too many TPKs or near-TPKs. After a while, the new, revolving characters have absolutely no connection to the story.
Why are they so damned hard?
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I think he was talking about 15 race points.lol. That too then.
We have yet to make it past the second adventure in an adventure path intact. Too many TPKs or near-TPKs. After a while, the new, revolving characters have absolutely no connection to the story.
Why are they so damned hard?
APs? They don't seem that bad if you have a full party of at least 4. I am running CoT and my party with a 20 point buy (so a +1 modifier somewhere) is steam rolling.
I have played a teifling, and GM'd for an Aasimar. They were not bad, but not impressive either. In short they did not perform any better than a core race.
We generally run a party of 4 or 5 players.
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Here is our fatality list so far:
Carrion Crown
- Britoris the Magnificent (6th-level human scroll master conjurer)
- Daeron Sedig (2nd-level human battle oracle)
- Flynn Applebloom (6th-level halfling saurian shaman druid)
- Galen Anvilstrike (3rd-level aasimar cleric)
- Galvan Anvilstrike (6th-level dwarf bladebound magus)
- Jostyr Penthast (6th-level human inquisitor)
- Nives Burer (6th-level human sorcerer)
- Nym Amalith (6th-level myrmidarch magus)
- Xiedil Inerit (5th-level elf paladin)
All dead by the end of module 2.
Kingmaker
- Alfina of Skywatch (3rd-level half-elf sorcerer)
- Ashur Beams (3rd-level half elf rogue)
- Foerth (5th-level human archer ranger)
- Iroh (4th-level half elf evoker)
- Néon Delséor (3rd-level human fighter)
- Odol Oakleg (3rd-level dwarven druid)
- Vaughn Medvyed (3rd-level human bard)
Most dead by the end of the first adventure, others before the halfway point of the second adventure. The high turn around for our kingdom's rulers wreaks havoc on its stability as well.
Legacy of Fire
- Gar (2rd-level half-orc barbarian)
- Gareth Lharz (2nd-level human paladin)
Campaign died out during the first adventure due conflicting schedules.
Skull and Shackles (hosted by yours truly)
1/3 through first adventure. No deaths yet, several near misses. I have these boards, and lots of advanced preparation/foreknowledge to thank for that. On it's own, this module is LETHAL.
Compare that to the SEVEN other homebrew campaigns that we've run, which only have 10 deceased characters between them.
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Design Manager
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Man he can HAVE Daylight, I can't remember the last time I thought 'gee wow, wish we had THAT one ready to go!". Similarly, the resistances don't come up that often anyway, so no great loss.Don't fight many creatures with the Darkness or Deeper Darkness ability then, do you? You know drow, tieflings, shadow demons, darkmantles...
Yep, and as long as you fight exactly one drow a day, you'll be glad that Aasimar is there.
Daylight is circumstantial enough that I don't even pay attention to it.
Now if the GM is fond of darkness spells then it may carry more weight in his games.
I do not want to derail the original thread but the topic of deadly AP's came up and I just wanted to add that this is true... We played Kingmaker last year and had quite a few almost tpks (1 person survived.. 4 member party) and now we are on Jade regent and luckily its not so deadly as Kingmaker imo but 3 party deaths so far...
Also I believe a 10 point buy is decent because more than half of the core Races are 10 points or below
Dwarf 11
Elves 10
Half Elves 10
Gnomes 10
Half Elves 10
Human 9
Halflings 9
Half Orcs 8
Aasimar 15
Note the Half Orc is 8 while the Aasimar is 15... almost doubled what the Half Orc is...
If anything.. If I was a DM.. I would give Half-orcs some Love (maybe an extra skill or language or something)
We have Aasimars as +2 Str, +2 Cha, -2 Int, which is almost the complete opposite of the tiefling, works pretty much perfectly flavor wise.
I don't think it's an issue of the aasimar or tiefling being WAY more powerful.. But certainly an aasimar is an exceptional cleric, also they are objectively better by the rules that paizo has produced.
Even if all they are is incrementally better, it's very reasonable for a GM to use the tools he has available to make their power level commensurate with the rest of the party.
Resistance is a pretty good ability, maybe you don't see it, but that can add up over time in ways other races can't.
If the question is are these races way overpowered then the answer is no. If the question is are they better than the other races then the answer is yes.
I don't think ARG race-point values are particularly telling when it comes to determining if a race is more powerful than another. In my opinion, Human is a better race than all of the other core races that supposedly have more points. Every time I play any other race, I soon find myself wishing I had that additional feat.
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Next, someone will come in with complaints on how overpowered the Kobold is.
+2 to dex, small size, and Racial natural armor? Why not just give them a racial feature called "Impossible to hit" and have done with it? Let's not even mention that they're a small race with a 30 foot move speed.
They get even crazier with the Advanced Race Guide. Now they can take wings and elemental resistances. Most of their favored class bonuses pump up their already insane AC, and don't even get me started on their racial feats. Breath weapons? Tail attacks?
People whine about Aasimar, but it's the Kobolds that are insanely OP.
Don't fight many creatures with the Darkness or Deeper Darkness ability then, do you? You know drow, tieflings, shadow demons, darkmantles...
As commented on already, they don't travel alone.
Not sure what you think Daylight is going to do to Deeper Darkness either.
Daylight, a great spell for letting every enemy know where you are.
It's an almost meaningless ability.
I've had Tieflings and Aasimars in my Campaigns as is and they do not cause any problems, they are far from being over powered.Add the +4 stat bonus, darkvision, 3rd level spell from a variety of choices, elemental resists, and the real biggy Outsider immunities to a lot of the classic humanoid targeting spells and you might reconsider that assessment.
Are they overpowered? that's up to your campaign. But it's hard to deny that they are more powerful than the standard races when you factor in the stat bonuses, the resists, the darkvision, and the immunities.
Funny they were not OP in either Council of Thieves or Carrion Crown, We have run a Human Cleric, Dhampir Rogue, Aasimar Paladin, Undine Oracle and a Dwarf Fighter in Council of Thieves and a Tiefling Inquisitor, Aasimar Monk, Dhampir Rogue, Kitsuni Gunslinger and a Vanara Cleric in Carrion Crown. Threat levels were pretty intense for both groups not even close to being over powered.
I don't think ARG race-point values are particularly telling when it comes to determining if a race is more powerful than another. In my opinion, Human is a better race than all of the other core races that supposedly have more points. Every time I play any other race, I soon find myself wishing I had that additional feat.
i agree with that sentiment. and i can say the same about the skill ranks, being kind of a skill hoarder myself. i hate having less than 5 skill points per level.
some of the human favored class bonuses are pretty sweet. extra spell known on every spontaneous caster out there, extra spell in my witches familiar that carries over to the new familiar, extra ki, arcane pool, or grit points on classes starved for said resources. extra superstition bonuses on a barbarian, the ability to spend a feat to have both of, any of the listed options and extra HP, while having 5 or more skill points per level. hell yeah!
The DM thinks the +2 to two abilities, darkvision, daylight, resistances and two languages are to much.
What?!
Aasimar get two languages?! A bit OP if you ask me... good thing he nerfed them or everyone woulda been speaking gibberish.
On a less sarcastic note, I might have actually nerfed them or even asked you to play a different race, perhaps one of the core, and my reason is this:
You're entire build is min/maxed for one specific purpose. Everything is set up and designed to offer you every possible advantage in your chosen field. Don't get me wrong, I know everyone plays the game their on way but as a GM, when my players create something that encompasses every possible means by which they can be 'perfect' at what they do, I hand it back and tell them to rewrite it.
Everything about the character from the attributes, to the age, to the feats and the traits and especially the race, do nothing but provide the message of "I'm trying to milk every 'plus' I can."
I don't think your GM is trying to 'limit the party's fun'. I think he's actually trying to prevent you from running roughshod over the entire game he plans on running. He's taken the time to set the game up for your group and your designing PCs that'll walk through it like it's a waste of your time. If that's the case, why did he even bother setting up the game for you guys to begin with. Just sit around the table and play "1-2-3 I win!" with yourselves all night.
I would have handed the PC back to you and said to make something else. Just my two cents.
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Don't fight many creatures with the Darkness or Deeper Darkness ability then, do you? You know drow, tieflings, shadow demons, darkmantles...As commented on already, they don't travel alone.
Not sure what you think Daylight is going to do to Deeper Darkness either.
Daylight, a great spell for letting every enemy know where you are.
It's an almost meaningless ability.
Please correct your quote. You are attributing a statement Shadowdweller made to me, when I was actually the first to refute it.
I do not want to derail the original thread but the topic of deadly AP's came up and I just wanted to add that this is true... We played Kingmaker last year and had quite a few almost tpks (1 person survived.. 4 member party) and now we are on Jade regent and luckily its not so deadly as Kingmaker imo but 3 party deaths so far...
Also I believe a 10 point buy is decent because more than half of the core Races are 10 points or below
Dwarf 11
Elves 10
Half Elves 10
Gnomes 10
Half Elves 10
Human 9
Halflings 9
Half Orcs 8Aasimar 15
Note the Half Orc is 8 while the Aasimar is 15... almost doubled what the Half Orc is...
If anything.. If I was a DM.. I would give Half-orcs some Love (maybe an extra skill or language or something)
I think half-orcs are better than halfings, gnomes, and elves(except for when magic classes are involved then it evens out), so I would not put much stock in the point system they have. Humans only have a 9, but many players swears by them. I think the ability to get that extra feat and skill point make them very good. Yeah early access to darkvision(other races) is nice, but it is circumstantial also.