So as a GM myself i know that its a fine line to walk with regards to allowing PCs to have custom magic items that can sometimes be crazy combinations of spells. Now as a player I had an archer character who was running a round with an efficient quiver. That was fine and all since it's SRD. I had the bright idea that I could go pay a wizard in town to make me a efficient quiver with the abundant ammunition spell stacked on top. I followed the magic item creation rules' guidelines for adding other abilities to magic items, and paid the full price, went back to adventuring and came bak to town a while later when my item was done being crafted. The GM now claims that "he should never have let me do this" because me having adamantine, silver, etc arrows on hand all the time was "broken", even though the cost of the arrows this magic quiver had generated for me never got anywhere close to the thousands of gold I paid for the quiver in the first place.
That character met an unfortunate end thanks to a vampire who wanted all his blood and levels, so I'm on a different character now. Since this guy might die also at some point as PCs tend to do on a semi-regular basis, I wrote up a few other backup characters for the campaign. In making these backups, I've been wanting to include in their gear a few custom magic items. The GM has approved other magic items like the Monk's ring of enlarge person 3/day, though it's not in the SRD, but was made following the rules.
What I'm wondering basically boils down to: Is there a decent argument I can use to convince my GM that magic items custom made with the rules in Pathfinder should ALL be allowed and not subject to his whims? I know the GM is the final word on everything, but I feel like it is a bit unfair that my imagination and creative making of new wondrous items is looked upon so negatively.
Thanks
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Not all magic items that one can imagine should be allowed so I do think the GM's whims should come into play.
As for example your abundant ammunition item makes it so that you don't have to deal with resource management. Running out of arrows is one thing that archers have to deal with.
The rules in pathfinder are also guidelines when it comes to custom items, not really rules.
Design Manager
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This is kind of a rough one because at the end of the day "What the GM giveth, he may also taketh away". He's already allowing exceptions into the game, it can be difficult to argue that he's not being generous enough. As you pointed out to him, the cost of your custom magic item could have easily exceeded the price of just buying the items separately, so if that argument didn't sway, it'll be hard for an outsider to suggest something that will. Pizza maybe? Or Mountain Dew?
Maybe just start a table-wide "no take-backsies" rule where the current GM gets to review all items before they're created, but once the process has been green-lighted everyone has to agree to remain prejudice free towards the new gear.
The important thing to remember here is that your GM is already being kind of nice by allowing player-customized items in the game, so remember that your current "issue" came from his original generosity.
First off, I don't think your original item was "broken". That said, if you go strictly by the rules, you can get some effects that are crazy powerful for their price, especially when compared to base items that do the same effect. I believe a guy named Ashiel had a topic concerning such combinations around here a while back, but one that particularly stuck out to me was from a game I've played in was someone arguing they should be able to get Boots of Expeditious Retreat made as per the spell for only around 2k gold when similar base boots cost 5.5k and only give +10 to movement.
So, yeah, I think your DM is right in reserving the right to look into custom items before allowing them, but yeah I also don't think your example item would have been bad enough to veto.
As far as the quiver goes that was far from broken, imho. A haversack filled with a $%^&-ton of blanched arrows + a efficient quiver does about the same thing and is legal. (Never ran out of arrows yet, then again I shop well.) When you add in the fact the quiver is A: a slot-less item and B: you pay a increased 50% for stacking I would go the blanch route to save gold in the short term.
In the end, GM's call. You don't like his rules? Don't play. HOWEVER if you feel your creativity is being stifled calmly and MATURELY speak to the GM about it. You WILL DISAGREE on somethings BUT maybe you can compromise. Don't feel that him denying one item (which I CAN see the reasoning for, I just don't agree)is a one sided attack against every idea you have. Its not. Or at least it shouldn't be. Be posistive, be nice, be respectful. A good GM will return it in kind.
The best example I can think of where the game forces great flexibility in this regard on a character is a wizard's bonded object which states they can modify it as if they had the requisite item creation feat but they still have to normally qualify for the feat before they can start improving said item.
This is almost blatantly giving a character a free pass to do crazy things so long as they have the right amount of GP. That said, you're going to be scrutinized very closely the more crazy your items get. The best thing to do is to get a bit rules lawyery on yourself and only do what the text of the abilities let you do.
Even if you follow that rule perfectly you need to weigh "what's out there" with "what you're trying to do." For example, your quiver of endless adamantine arrows is essentially a gold mine. No other ability approaches such potential wealth generation capability and is therefore probably broken. The only thing I can think of is the ranged weapon quality that gives you free arrows but these vanish if you don't actually fire the arrow and they always break once used so they can't be reused.
If you have the Ultimate Magic book read the chapter on creating spells. Stepping back for a minute and taking the advice on a more philosophical level lets you apply the same principals to most things custom made. The number one rule: core is king. If there's not an example of it already existing at a given power level then it's probably broken. If you're trying to get something only a level 20 caster has at level 5 it's probably broken.
That said, this last month the GM awarded my level 8 party about 1.5M gp. I got some shiny toys with his approval including a mage's disjunction item. The caveat: it was a one time only item and he imposed a daily spending limit of 20k gp in a city who's costs were doubled which made those 20k items cost 40k gp and we only had 7 days. While we were able to get a lot of shiny goodness from that there were inherent restrictions.
So as a GM myself i know that its a fine line to walk with regards to allowing PCs to have custom magic items that can sometimes be crazy combinations of spells. Now as a player I had an archer character who was running a round with an efficient quiver. That was fine and all since it's SRD. I had the bright idea that I could go pay a wizard in town to make me a efficient quiver with the abundant ammunition spell stacked on top. I followed the magic item creation rules' guidelines for adding other abilities to magic items, and paid the full price, went back to adventuring and came bak to town a while later when my item was done being crafted. The GM now claims that "he should never have let me do this" because me having adamantine, silver, etc arrows on hand all the time was "broken", even though the cost of the arrows this magic quiver had generated for me never got anywhere close to the thousands of gold I paid for the quiver in the first place.
That character met an unfortunate end thanks to a vampire who wanted all his blood and levels, so I'm on a different character now. Since this guy might die also at some point as PCs tend to do on a semi-regular basis, I wrote up a few other backup characters for the campaign. In making these backups, I've been wanting to include in their gear a few custom magic items. The GM has approved other magic items like the Monk's ring of enlarge person 3/day, though it's not in the SRD, but was made following the rules.
What I'm wondering basically boils down to: Is there a decent argument I can use to convince my GM that magic items custom made with the rules in Pathfinder should ALL be allowed and not subject to his whims? I know the GM is the final word on everything, but I feel like it is a bit unfair that my imagination and creative making of new wondrous items is looked upon so negatively.
Thanks
/Wall of text
Please take this with a grain of salt as I will admit I GM exclusively. I have not seen the character side of the screen for like ten years unless you count one game that only lasted two sessions.
So my opinion may be biased.
However, I feel that custom items are a thing that must be handled with utmost care. I only allow custom items after extensive investigation.
By custom btw I am not referring to slot swapping. If a character in a home game wants gloves of Dex rather than a belt of Dex that is usually OK with me.
Custom items usually run into problems when emulating spell effects or when granting characters an ability or set of abilities that they did not possess before.
An example is your quiver, as Wraithstrike pointed out you no longer need to manage your special material arrows. This is an ability the quiver grants you. I would need to do some math and theory craft to see if this is Weak, OK, Strong, or Too Strong. I would after doing my math get back to you as a player.
In short I feel that any custom item must be evaluated in how it effects the game. A good rule of thumb is "Would this make a massive change in the way my world works if it was possible?".
An example of that is an unlimited use, use activated item of CLW crafted for only 2000 gp. This item would make it so that injury for anyone except the extremely poor was no longer a problem period. I would Never allow a resource breaker such as a use activated CLW item in my games, unless I was playing in a Tippyverse world.
In short,in my opinion any custom item that is created must be scrutinized thoroughly for possible problems before it enters play. Also in my games at least all custom item come with a warning that says, "If this item is found to substantially and provably unbalance the game via an unforeseen combination or use it can and will be reworked/removed."
So to directly answer your question, No there is no argument I can think of that would cause me as a GM to say "Sure make whatever you want, I will approve it as long as it follows the Item creation guidelines."
I would however always say "You want effect X and Fluff Y, Well the Fluff is never a problem but lets work together to create a balanced effect of Z to replace the effect X if it is too strong/weak."
Also from my side at least, I never am being negative towards my players, I am just trying to ensure we all have a fun and challenging experience, which we all work together towards.
Anyway, just my opinion.
Happy Gaming.
Here's your math:
An adamantine arrow comes out to be 60 gp 2 sp per arrow at the market price. At a quiver of 20 that's 1,204 gp. He could run cities dry in no time flat as the game imposes no rules on the amount you can sell in a city other than GM fiat saying "there's no one left with gold to spend" as 602 GP is cheap enough to even be within even a hamlets purchase limit.
Essentially, you could make millions if you spent a few months just going from town to town as adamantine is one of the most sought after materials. Hell, one trip through Absalom would set you for life. It'd be common sense for nations to buy these en masse, melt them down and refit their armies entirely out of adamantine. The most bloody conquests would probably be waged as a result.
Now, that doesn't sound like even a major wondrous item. That sounds more like a major artifact and artifacts can't be crafted.
Look at the price of Ring of Invisibility.
Look at what the item creation guidelines say a custom-made ring of invisibility would cost if it didn't already exist.
Now understand why the guidelines are guidelines subject to GM discretion and not cast-iron rules that apply universally.
Not all magic items that one can imagine should be allowed so I do think the GM's whims should come into play.
As for example your abundant ammunition item makes it so that you don't have to deal with resource management. Running out of arrows is one thing that archers have to deal with.
The rules in pathfinder are also guidelines when it comes to custom items, not really rules.
It isn't that hard, or expensive, to make a character who can carry large amounts of crafting materials and has the craft skill, who can nullify the "resource management" aspect without too much difficulty.
You could always put a cap on the number of arrows per day from the item.
Here's your math:
An adamantine arrow comes out to be 60 gp 2 sp per arrow at the market price. At a quiver of 20 that's 1,204 gp. He could run cities dry in no time flat as the game imposes no rules on the amount you can sell in a city other than GM fiat saying "there's no one left with gold to spend" as 602 GP is cheap enough to even be within even a hamlets purchase limit.
Essentially, you could make millions if you spent a few months just going from town to town as adamantine is one of the most sought after materials. Hell, one trip through Absalom would set you for life. It'd be common sense for nations to buy these en masse, melt them down and refit their armies entirely out of adamantine. The most bloody conquests would probably be waged as a result.
Now, that doesn't sound like even a major wondrous item. That sounds more like a major artifact and artifacts can't be crafted.
The spell Abundant Ammunition does not allow this, and neither should an item based on it.
As to the larger question, you should probably sit down and as a group come up with a list of guidelines on what spells/effects make for broken items in yall's opinion. (A good example would be "No personal range spells" or "no unlimited instantaneous spells.") The table presented works fine in many, many cases if you use a little common sense (start at the top, etc.).
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Oh yes... Dm's have complete control over what shows up in his world. And what's 'broken' in one game, may be underpowered in another.
If the DM thinks that a custom item will unbalance an encounter he has coming up... it's in the games best interest it disallow it.
Heck... in MY opinion... that's not just CUSTOM stuff. Anything you want to buy out of the core has to go through him too... He runs the shops and people have to be selling that spell or item you want first ;)
The other way the GM could handle this.. is a player agreement - You can have this quiver , only so long as you arent trying to sell the arrows to make a billion gold. ( ie personal use only )
I would think if you, as a player, were suddenly selling 100,000 adamantine arrows.. you COULD make alot of money.. but as a GM I would sick every Archer + Thief on you I could for trying to abuse it.
Not all magic items that one can imagine should be allowed so I do think the GM's whims should come into play.
As for example your abundant ammunition item makes it so that you don't have to deal with resource management. Running out of arrows is one thing that archers have to deal with.
The rules in pathfinder are also guidelines when it comes to custom items, not really rules.
It isn't that hard, or expensive, to make a character who can carry large amounts of crafting materials and has the craft skill, who can nullify the "resource management" aspect without too much difficulty.
You could always put a cap on the number of arrows per day from the item.
That depends on how long you stay away from a city. I shoot through 200 arrows in SCAP, while away for a good length of time.
Arrows are DC 12 crafting check. A handy haversack can carry 120 lbs of materials, which going off weight, is 800 arrows. It also only costs 13.2g to refill it completely with arrow making materials.
Now, if you do a lot of fighting in a day, you can't refill it right away. But if you can get a +15 on your check, with a DC of 12, you can still do 2.5g worth of work in 8 hours, or about 3 hours to finish 20 arrows. If you take 10, you only need a +5 to your skill check to pull that off, so first level with a 12 Int. At 8th level, with a 12 Int, you can almost finish 20 arrows in an hour.
My last ranger would take a watch at night and work on his arrows then.
Now, this doesn't cover special materials, or if you had a lot of fights several days in a row, but a couple days of travel or rest and you're highly stocked again.
Had I known I would be away from the city for so long and/or that I could burn through arrows that fast I would have taken craft(Arrows). It was definitely a learning experience.
What I'm wondering basically boils down to: Is there a decent argument I can use to convince my GM that magic items custom made with the rules in Pathfinder should ALL be allowed and not subject to his whims? I know the GM is the final word on everything, but I feel like it is a bit unfair that my imagination and creative making of new wondrous items is looked upon so negatively.
Thanks
/Wall of text
Be the GM, then it will be your own headache you'll have to worry about. Seriously, while some GMs are bad seeds -- most GMs don't tell you that you can't make something just to deprive you of you want. Sometimes small considerations make big headaches for a GM, and the more disproportionate your character's power is to your actual level that he perceives (right or wrong) the harder his job will likewise seem (right or wrong) and stressed/uncertain/unhappy GMs lead to worse games.
...give the guy a break if you can manage it.
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An easy fix for the quiver of adamantine mining is to state that the arrows vanish 1 round after being withdrawn from the quiver. Meaning that you get to shoot with them, but not sell them.
Then, if it takes quite a long while to recoup your initial investment in such a quiver (compared to just buying adamantine arrows and carrying them around in a haversack), the item is probably balanced. That's something you should be able to convince your GM of, because it's reasonable and restrained. They key is that the arrows can't be sold for profit, that makes GMs nervous.
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So for the general case: no, there's no argument to allow custom creation for all items. Because the rules are just too easy to abuse; they give low costs for a lot of items, and would permit a lot of Things That Should Not Be.
They're guidelines, and not terribly great guidelines (if you look at the amount of heated discussions about broken combos on this forum), for pricing things, provided the GM agrees that a given item should be allowed to exist in the first place.
So the best possible result would be a "No Backsies" agreement, where any item that's allowed will stay allowed. Although if it turns out to be broken after all, making another one won't be possible.
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Alternatively, you can propose to put some questionable item "on parole"; you get to try it out, but if it turns out that it's broken, the GM gets to say so, and you have to give it up.
When that happens, you get back your money and can retroactively buy something else; you're not being punished, it's just an experiment with an unsatisfactory result.
You promise not to complain if the GM pulls the plug, and in return he'll give you more leeway to try things he's not sure of.
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Custom items aren't a right, they're an experimental privilege. You're going beyond the safety of playtested normal items, and it doesn't always work out.
Thanks for all the replies everyone!
In response to all the gold mining worries, as the item was made with Abundant Ammunition, the arrows all disappeared after 1 round, so no worries there. I think I just need to stop spending time dreaming up items and make some beatsticks or something that just need a sword and armor to do their thing, cause I keep making crazy stuff like archers with magical variety pack quivers, and sorcerers who lich-ify themselves.
The other thing about munchkin-ing, that I should maybe have mentioned was that characters in our campaign have to be pretty minmaxed, or be paranoidly super-cautious, on account of our group cycles GMs for each campaign, an our current GM REALLY likes to kill us. =(
I think part of a good compromise would be what we have kind of reached, which is that our characters who actually have the Craft Wondrous item/rod/ring/etc, and are possessed of sufficient casting and spell knowledge to make the item, can sit down and make it. But you can't necessarily find a guy in a shop in town so easily who could, if at all
Look at the price of Ring of Invisibility.
Look at what the item creation guidelines say a custom-made ring of invisibility would cost if it didn't already exist.
Now understand why the guidelines are guidelines subject to GM discretion and not cast-iron rules that apply universally.
The ring of invisibility has been nerfed. It has to be activated, which costs an action. A rogue cannot surprise attack, get his other attacks, vanish, then 5 foot step. I think he will be visible till next round.
The quiver could be similarly nerfed. The everful purse generated more coins, as long as there was at least one of that coin in it. Adamantine arrows, it generasts a new one each month.