When is being a One trick pony overdoing it? A discussion for full BAB chars.

[Nicos]

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

A fighter is about as dumb and mundane as it gets.

Fighters are dumb only if the player is dumb (or if the fighter dump int, they should not).

[Aldaara Drower]

I'm not sure that you need more than 1 point in swimming or climbing anyways. By the time your fighters hit 5th level or so, the party is probably flying, and in any case swimming and climbing isn't going to get any harder, so the skills lose a purpose in continually putting points into. You're a solid swimmer at 1st level with a +7 bonus, and still so at 10 level with +9 and a couple of armor trainings to bring the ACP down.

[wraithstrike]

Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

Abyssal offers it too. and with both, the first level powers are relatively useless.

claws are useless except as a last ditch weapon in the odd case of sunder

touch of rage would have been a great power, if it didn't have a one round duration and require a tax to be quickened 3 times per day. it's a bonus not worth relying on and doesn't help you at all. the 1 round duration is wasted before you can use it.

size enhancing powers do not stack. and you already get righteous might 5 levels earlier.

knowledge planes is generally more important than survival since you will fight evil outsiders a lot more than you follow trails in the wilderness.

eldritch heritage does not offer the bloodline arcana

orc also has the disadvantage of being released in the companion line rather than the rpg line, so it is a less commonly printed and used line. even more so, the companion is written for a rarely allowed race. the orc.

I do agree the orc bloodline is in a companion book, but I disagree that the first power is useless. Well at first it is not all that great, but as an SLA you can take quicken SLA, and put out a lot of damage if the GM allows for the bloodline to be used. In short it depends on what level you are playing to.

core rulebook is more official a source than the companion line. Orcs of Golarion is an obscure companion of limited publishment.

the first power is useless until you take quicken SLA, and it only lasts one round, which is wasted without spending a feat on quicken SLA. which only works 3 times per day. a feat for 3 rounds of increased damage per day isn't worth it. that's not even one encounter per day, and either it is needed far more than you can use it, or it's wasted overkill damage

the 15th level power isn't available till level 17, and most campaigns i have noticed end at 10th, maybe 15th at latest.

I am pretty sure neither one is more "official". More common would be a better term to use. The 15th level power is not the one I care about. The 9th level power is. As for 3 rounds per day it is not bad if you can stack it with other abilities. Your attack and damage will be significantly increased.

[wraithstrike]

Neo2151 wrote:

Melissa Litwin wrote:

Well, something to keep in mind is fighters do it better. So sure, they don't have a whole lot other than "I hit things with a pointy stick", but they hit people better and do more damage with that pointy stick than anyone else can ever dream of. They do this while having a medium-to-high AC, good CMD, and a lot of hit points. Pointy sticks are also an inexhaustible resource.

The only problem here is that this is actually a myth.

A Raging Barbarian is outdoing a Fighter on damage. His AC is lower but his DR makes up for that. Also, 2 more skills per level.
A Smiting Paladin WAY outdoes a Fighter on damage. He has the same skills, but has a generally better AC (and WAY better saves) to boot.
A Ranger fighting a Favored Enemy is outdoing the Fighter too, and has a ton of extra skills and useful tricks he can do in and out of combat.

You could argue that the Fighter outperforms the Paladin/Ranger when they're not using their abilities, but a Ranger can cast a spell and turn anything into his Favored Enemy, and a GM that doesn't let his Paladin player Smite Evil is being a pretty mean GM.

The problem that needs to be addressed is that, yes, a Fighter *can* be useful in non-combat areas, but he has to sacrifice his points in Str and put them in another ability (Int or Cha, generally) in order to pull it off.
Meanwhile, the other Combat Classes have interesting "out of combat" options offered to them that are built right into the class.

The ranger does not get that spell until level 10ish, and being able to lay on heavy damage all the time is not bad at all. Of course she did not define "better" either. :)

[wraithstrike]

Melissa Litwin wrote:

Neo2151 wrote:

Melissa Litwin wrote:

Well, something to keep in mind is fighters do it better. So sure, they don't have a whole lot other than "I hit things with a pointy stick", but they hit people better and do more damage with that pointy stick than anyone else can ever dream of. They do this while having a medium-to-high AC, good CMD, and a lot of hit points. Pointy sticks are also an inexhaustible resource.

The only problem here is that this is actually a myth.

A Raging Barbarian is outdoing a Fighter on damage. His AC is lower but his DR makes up for that. Also, 2 more skills per level.
A Smiting Paladin WAY outdoes a Fighter on damage. He has the same skills, but has a generally better AC (and WAY better saves) to boot.
A Ranger fighting a Favored Enemy is outdoing the Fighter too, and has a ton of extra skills and useful tricks he can do in and out of combat.

You could argue that the Fighter outperforms the Paladin/Ranger when they're not using their abilities, but a Ranger can cast a spell and turn anything into his Favored Enemy, and a GM that doesn't let his Paladin player Smite Evil is being a pretty mean GM.

The problem that needs to be addressed is that, yes, a Fighter *can* be useful in non-combat areas, but he has to sacrifice his points in Str and put them in another ability (Int or Cha, generally) in order to pull it off.
Meanwhile, the other Combat Classes have interesting "out of combat" options offered to them that are built right into the class.

I've seen (and done) some of the theory-crafting of numbers. You are incorrect. Fighters do higher damage than paladins, rangers, and barbarians on a consistent basis even when those classes are fighting their favored enemies/smite targets/raging. Additionally, rangers and paladins have secondary stats as well: rangers have Wisdom and paladins have Charisma. That doesn't count as a "stat sacrifice" for them, so it shouldn't for fighters either.

Further, fighters still have all those other feats to...

I am going to have to disagree with you here. When those other classes are using special abilities the fighter does not outdamage them. The DPR thread shows that. Now if you can build a fighter that does that much damage we would like to see it.

[Melissa Litwin]

wraithstrike wrote:

Melissa Litwin wrote:

Neo2151 wrote:

Melissa Litwin wrote:

Well, something to keep in mind is fighters do it better. So sure, they don't have a whole lot other than "I hit things with a pointy stick", but they hit people better and do more damage with that pointy stick than anyone else can ever dream of. They do this while having a medium-to-high AC, good CMD, and a lot of hit points. Pointy sticks are also an inexhaustible resource.

The only problem here is that this is actually a myth.

A Raging Barbarian is outdoing a Fighter on damage. His AC is lower but his DR makes up for that. Also, 2 more skills per level.
A Smiting Paladin WAY outdoes a Fighter on damage. He has the same skills, but has a generally better AC (and WAY better saves) to boot.
A Ranger fighting a Favored Enemy is outdoing the Fighter too, and has a ton of extra skills and useful tricks he can do in and out of combat.

You could argue that the Fighter outperforms the Paladin/Ranger when they're not using their abilities, but a Ranger can cast a spell and turn anything into his Favored Enemy, and a GM that doesn't let his Paladin player Smite Evil is being a pretty mean GM.

The problem that needs to be addressed is that, yes, a Fighter *can* be useful in non-combat areas, but he has to sacrifice his points in Str and put them in another ability (Int or Cha, generally) in order to pull it off.
Meanwhile, the other Combat Classes have interesting "out of combat" options offered to them that are built right into the class.

I've seen (and done) some of the theory-crafting of numbers. You are incorrect. Fighters do higher damage than paladins, rangers, and barbarians on a consistent basis even when those classes are fighting their favored enemies/smite targets/raging. Additionally, rangers and paladins have secondary stats as well: rangers have Wisdom and paladins have Charisma. That doesn't count as a "stat sacrifice" for them, so it shouldn't for fighters either.

Further, fighters still have

...

At 13th level:

Barbarian rage: +3 to hit, +4-5 to damage when raging (if two-handing which most barbarians do)
Paladin smite: +3-5 to hit, +13 damage but only 5/day and only evil enemies
Ranger favored enemy: +6 to hit, +6 to damage on best favored enemy
Fighter: +4 to hit, +7 to damage from Weapon Spec, Improved Weapon Spec, Improved Weapon Focus, and fighter training +3

All else being equal, the fighter just beats the barbarian. S/he hits better than a smiting paladin but does less damage, although most paladins start at a lower hit bonus than most fighters due to needing more stats. Smite is also a very powerful yet limited special ability that the paladin should never assume s/he is going to get (sometimes yes, always no). The fighter outdamages the ranger and hits almost as well against the ranger's most favored enemy.

[wraithstrike]

That is not a build Melissa. There are ways to get more damage out of a barbarian than that. I am assuming that if you ran DPR numbers that you do have a build available.

[Yosarian]

Melissa Litwin wrote:

I do agree on this wholeheartedly. My temporary solution is that my fighters are usually expert climbers, solid swimmers, and have 1 rank in things like Knowledge (engineering) and Survival. Enough to roll, enough to do simple things, but not enough to be considered expert. I also have a grab-bag of useful tools: shovel, hammer, crowbar, etc. I find that gives me enough to do in out-of-combat situations.

(nods) Climb and Swim use str, so they're good.

Also, if you have the highest strength in your party, you can carry the most stuff without it slowing you down, so you should have a backpack full of "contingency plans". (Also, if you're the only one in the party who really knows how to climb, carry rope. ;) )

[Yosarian]

wraithstrike wrote:

I've seen (and done) some of the theory-crafting of numbers. You are incorrect. Fighters do higher damage than paladins, rangers, and barbarians on a consistent basis even when those classes are fighting their favored enemies/smite targets/raging.

Really? Fighters have 1-2 feats for every +2 the ranger gets against his favored enemy. You should be doing at least 2 more damage a round with an extra feat. Anyway, that's just against the favored enemy.

Fighters are really better front-line fighters then rangers, and an archery fighter is actually a better archer then an archery ranger, although rangers have skills/animal companions/spells to make up for that difference.

[wraithstrike]

Yosarian wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

I've seen (and done) some of the theory-crafting of numbers. You are incorrect. Fighters do higher damage than paladins, rangers, and barbarians on a consistent basis even when those classes are fighting their favored enemies/smite targets/raging.

Really? Fighters have 1-2 feats for every +2 the ranger gets against his favored enemy. You should be doing at least 2 more damage a round with an extra feat. Anyway, that's just against the favored enemy.

Fighters are really better front-line fighters then rangers, and an archery fighter is actually a better archer then an archery ranger, although rangers have skills/animal companions/spells to make up for that difference.

You quoted the wrong person. :)

[Melissa Litwin]

wraithstrike wrote:

That is not a build Melissa. There are ways to get more damage out of a barbarian than that. I am assuming that if you ran DPR numbers that you do have a build available.

I don't do formal DPR numbers, instead relying on forum people for that. I look at the differences between classes and what they can/cannot do, so I wind up with something similar (though more complex with more variables) than what I posted. For example, I took no rage powers, non-fighter-only feats, or magic items into consideration in the above post. It's definitely more amorphous than DPR because it's very difficult to quantify the power of pounce against a Combat Reflexes/Trip/Disarm build, but I find it tends to conform to actual gameplay conditions better.

My political scientist training is showing in this, I'm afraid ...

[wraithstrike]

Melissa Litwin wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

That is not a build Melissa. There are ways to get more damage out of a barbarian than that. I am assuming that if you ran DPR numbers that you do have a build available.

I don't do formal DPR numbers, instead relying on forum people for that. I look at the differences between classes and what they can/cannot do, so I wind up with something similar (though more complex with more variables) than what I posted. For example, I took no rage powers, non-fighter-only feats, or magic items into consideration in the above post. It's definitely more amorphous than DPR because it's very difficult to quantify the power of pounce against a Combat Reflexes/Trip/Disarm build, but I find it tends to conform to actual gameplay conditions better.

My political scientist training is showing in this, I'm afraid ...

I understand that but actual builds show the fighter as being far behind in some situations, and behind in every case where the special power is in place. In actual gameplay I have seen the fighter do less damage when another class is using a special power.

[Atarlost]

There are no rage powers that provide a raw damage increase. There's CaGM, which requires stupid opponents, and pounce, which requires charge lanes.

Apparently some people have GMs who feed CaGM barbarians instead of going around them or shooting them full of arrows or using combat expertise to exploit their horrible AC or casting spells or using reach weapons and/or lunge...

Pounce has a better case, but it's still contingent on your GM being nice. Trees and furniture and cheap mooks are the enemies of pounce builds.

[Yosarian]

Atarlost wrote:

There are no rage powers that provide a raw damage increase. There's CaGM, which requires stupid opponents, and pounce, which requires charge lanes.

Apparently some people have GMs who feed CaGM barbarians instead of going around them or shooting them full of arrows or using combat expertise to exploit their horrible AC or casting spells or using reach weapons and/or lunge...

Pounce has a better case, but it's still contingent on your GM being nice. Trees and furniture and cheap mooks are the enemies of pounce builds.

Well, and the +4 strength you get for just being in a rage in the first place. It takes at least a couple of feats just to match that.

[wraithstrike]

Atarlost wrote:

There are no rage powers that provide a raw damage increase. There's CaGM, which requires stupid opponents, and pounce, which requires charge lanes.

Apparently some people have GMs who feed CaGM barbarians instead of going around them or shooting them full of arrows or using combat expertise to exploit their horrible AC or casting spells or using reach weapons and/or lunge...

Pounce has a better case, but it's still contingent on your GM being nice. Trees and furniture and cheap mooks are the enemies of pounce builds.

Raging Brutality is a feat though that works off of rage and CaGM still increases damage. How obvious it is that you are getting setup to take damage in return depends on how the flavor of the ability is seen. The same things that pounce stop any melee person from having an easy path to the bad guy, and pouncing on mooks still counts for DPR.

If you use core alone then the fighter might come out ahead

[Lemmy]

Atarlost wrote:

Pounce has a better case, but it's still contingent on your GM being nice. Trees and furniture and cheap mooks are the enemies of pounce builds.

Thing is, anything that stands in the way of a poucing barbarian, also stands in the way of a walking fighter. The difference is, when there is a free lane, the Barbarian can move and make a full attack, the fighter still has to walk and make a single attack, no mather how smooth, clear and unimpeded is his path.

And a "Pouce build" is basically 3 Rage Powers, one of which increases the Barbarian's AC. It doesn't take that much of an investment. It's as much "contigent of your GM being nice" as any other melee tactic, if not less.

[Nicos]

Lemmy wrote:

Atarlost wrote:

Pounce has a better case, but it's still contingent on your GM being nice. Trees and furniture and cheap mooks are the enemies of pounce builds.

Thing is, anything that stands in the way of a poucing barbarian, also stands in the way of a walking fighter. The difference is, when there is a free lane, the Barbarian can move and make a full attack, the fighter still has to walk and make a single attack, no mather how smooth, clear and unimpeded is his path.

True for most fighters. but the mobile fighter, the danwflower dervish and the Two-Weapon Warrior have method to improve that in some degree.

[Yosarian]

Well, that is kind of the idea of the class. Barbarian is big and flashy, can do a lot of damage fast, but is more vulnerable to taking damage because of lower AC and can only keep up the rage for so long before he gets tired. Fighter isn't quite as flashy, but can keep it up for longer without getting hurt or tired; barbarians can be more effective in a short battle, but usually need more healing after the battle. It fits thematically well; fighters are better at holding a shield wall, barbarians are better at smashing through a shield wall.

[Nicos]

By the other hand if we have one option is just plain better, far superior than the others (beast tomem(pounce)) that speak bad about the game.

[hustonj]

I have had many PFS tables surprised by my fighter builds, but I have never had one disappointed in my contribution to the table, even though I was "just" playing a Fighter.

The way you MAKE a Fighter better than a 1 trick pony is to not let him BE a 1 trick pony.

A heavy flail, combat expertise, improved/greater disarm, improved/greater trip, combat reflexes, agile maneuvers and DEX, DEX, DEX makes for an amazing battle-field control machine who doesn't deal huge amounts of damage, but who rarely has any need to . . ..

Swap to whip, add the whip mastery feats and improved/quicken steal.

Don't like those tricks? There are others you can use! The only limit is your willingness to do them! All the feats do is make them EASIER.

Want to stick to a pure meat (STR) based grunt? Go with Sunder instead, and then USE IT. Or Bull Rush. Or Overrun.

One of my most successful organized play builds of all time can be built FAR more effectively with the Pathfinder Feat Tree. I called him "You shall not cast." His job was to pierce the enemy lines and get RIGHT NEXT TO the opposition spell casters. The first time I did that (Living City) with the group of players in my area, they said "Hunh." The second time the Cleric dropped a Silence spell on me, and a standard group tactic was born.

Yep, that's right! One of the Fighter's tricks can and should be a down-range willing target for spells. You just have to not get stupid about what you cast on him.

As far as this conversation about moving through the battlefield, well, if that ability is important to you, there are a few feats that a Fighter should be able to spare which can make that much, much safer for him than it will be for people who don't take them.

Every class has strengths. Every class has weaknesses. The board's common wisdom that a grunt who doesn't deal a minimum of (whatever) damage per hit is just wasted space is responsible for far more negative attitudes than any of the classes deserve. The Fighter class is designed to be versatile and survivable. It is a Swiss army knife, not a hammer. It is amazing the results you can get when you look at what you can do with a class and not at what other people tell you that you are SUPPOSED to do with that class.

[STR Ranger]

Yeah.. I guess this has degenerated a little bit.

Anyway.

I have my fighter (TWO Weapon Warrior) build.
Currently level 5 (But have played it at 12, 16 and 20 in a couple of Home games)

I won't list his whole build (posting from my phone) but can do later.

At 20 his scores are (without items)
Str 18
Dex 18
Con 14
Int 7
Wis 10
Cha 15

By 20 he completes the WHOLE TWF and Eldritch Heritage(Orc), trees. Has 3 skills per level and relies on a Belt of Physical Perfection and Head band of Cha for GTWF and GTR Eldritch Heritage respectively.

At 20 his MELEE attack is:

Attack:

Taking weapon Training and full power attack into account Final Full Attack is
BAB20 +2(Gtr Wpn Fcs)+ 4(Twin Blades)+2(Dueling Gloves)+ 7(STR) +3(Belt of Physical Perfection) +5(wpn enhancement, speed)-1(TWF w Scimitars) -6(PA) 38/38/38/38/33/33/28/28/23 ave 7 hits

(This uses a +5 Speed Keen Courageous Scimitar and a +5 Speed Keen Guardian Scimitar)

Damage Primary= +5, Speed, keen, Courageous Scimitar
D6+ 5(wpn enhance)+10(STR,Belt) +4(Gtr Wpn Spl) +4(Twin Blades) +12(PA)+2(Dueling Gloves)= ave 40 on full attack (Damage = 36 on standard action)

Damage Secondary= +5, Speed, Keen, Guradian Scimitar
D6+ 5(wpn enhance) +10(STR,Belt) +4(Gtr Wpn Spl) +4(Twin Blades)+6(PA)+2(Dueling Gloves)= ave 34 (Damage = 30 on standard action)

TWR- 20 damage

Now take another -5 For Dazing Assault.
Plus 3/day he can Swift action Touch of Rage on Himself for +10Attack and Damage and Will saves for 1+1d4rounds(Optimistic Gambler trait). This is boosted to +15 by Courageous enchant

And

Armor Class:

AC= 10 +6(Celestial Chain) +5(Armor Enhancement)+5(Amulet)+5(Ring)+7 (Dex+ Belt, )+1(Trait)+1(Dusty Rose Ioun Stone)= 40 on a move or 45 with full attack (+ 5 Defensive Flurry), 48 if Fighting Defensively.

So absolute Melee Killa and Nice AC. Not bad ranged either since Touch of Rage works on bows too.
Really wish he could do something
outside of combat.

Now before you say BUT YOU SPENT ALL RESCOURCES ON DAMAGE AND DUMPED INT!!
My point is that a Ranger can master the same feat chains (TWF, Heritage ) STILL SACK Int, Have a lower Dex and Higher STR and still get a pet and Spells.

Seems other classes get more.

As for not being a One trick pony- the grappler's mask let's you make bull rushes and grapples without provoking.
Is there a similar item which works for Trip/Disarm?

And I'm not sure if KEEN is the best enchant when you can buy a couple of Scabbard of Keen.Edge. I know it takes a standard to activate them but It allows the fighter to buff himself a bit.
Any suggestions for good +1 enchants?