Do it. If negative repercussions happen, then so be it. The dm still has to come up with a plausible way for the party to find out. I'll warn you in advance though, If your DM wants something to happen, it will happen regardless of how you try and stop it.
Now to go read the other thread...
The first thing I have to say is: There seems to be a lot more to this story and this NPC's involvement than your DM led us to believe in his thread.
Based on this new information, I would probably attempt to do the same thing you are. However, unless I thought they would act upon that OOC knowledge in the game, I would have explained the reason and the future plan to the other players.
I agree that the DM shouldn't plant clues if no clues exist, but certain spells (commune, in particular) might be able to reveal parts of this plot even if there were no available clues.
This sounds somehow familiar...
You guys should probably have a rational discussion on this.
My DM has started another thread called Help Me Save An NPC, which I have not read at his request, but I can see that there are a lot of posts.
*wink*
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As I've already read and answered to your DM's thread, it's interesting to see your side of the quandary.
Honestly, my answer is unlikely to help you, but maybe it will interest you nonetheless.
Around the tables I play in, there are no aparté between a player and a DM. Everything that happens during the campaign is common knowledge.
If I were in your situation, my DM would have found a way to make my character explain what I intend to do about the NPC who was bothering him. My character would probably have talked about his plight to another sympathetic NPc - while all the other PLAYERS would have been listening around the table.
So all my fellow players would be aware of what my character intends to do, and we could tell a story all together about this interesting moral dilemma : "our friend the rogue wants to kill our another friend's lover because that's the only way to save the world - or so he believes."
I dub this style of play "open plotting" against CHARACTERS. It has many advantages, not the least of them being it helps to maintain an healthy and fun ambiance during gameplay.
Open plotting also has dramatic narrative advantages. What's the most fun :
1) the DM announcing that a NPC disapppeared, her whereabouts unknown, and not hearing anymore about that crucial NPC until after the end of the campaign
or
2) your rogue character exposes his nasty plan to a fellow plotter, and the players around the table are all excited about the plot opportunities and outcomes of this delicate situation.
Will the rogue be able to kill the character ? Will the other character be able to counterplot so as to be able to save his own true love ?
I understand that this style of play may well not be enticing to you. To each his own.
My gaming buddies and I, we're not overly concerned about "metagaming".
The "everyting in the open policy" around the table forces us to play our characters, let's say, "fairly" - lest it's blatant that we each tries to skew the game in favor of our character.
The one advice I can give you that you can really use to your benefit is : talk to your DM - after all you already did tell him what's on your mind, and it's a smart move - and try to resolve this situation with him. I think you're placing him in a difficult situation vis-a-vis the other players.
Just my 2,5 cents, YMMV, I'm not in your shoes, etc.
Cheers
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I think you should be allowed to do it. I would also use mind blank to prevent divination spells from being used against you. If you have any outsider friends have them hold onto the body will also help.
really? all this over a sorceress who seems to attract baddies?
Death isn't the answer. she is infinitely replaceable. and the rogue has no way to trap her soul anyway. at least without a custom item or a really expensive scroll.
if she is bait for attracting baddies, the PCs (assuming a good party) should try and take out the "brain bug". not the sorceress. if you saw starship troopers, you would know what i mean.
to take out a hive, the most efficient way is to eliminate the queen of the hive for she is the central brain that all hive members rely upon to function.
if it weren't for the infinitely replaceable factor. it would be a case of "Kill Marta so we can destroy Ratatosk's core"
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She is also feeding them vital intel according to the PC. Her being silenced is reasonable, and he will bring her back to life. If it was permadeath then I would understand, but at this level death isn't really all that significant. The GM could rule that the soul does not want to return, but that is on the GM at that point.
a trapped soul still has it's senses. i doubt slaying the source of the intel would stop the soul from perceiving the intel in the first place. if anything, i imagine it would be a portable body that is easy to kidnap.
Unless it's left somewhere there's nothing to see, such as being placed in a bag of holding/portable hole/lead box. Which have all been recommended. Repeatedly.
The party's level 17. They have had access to this stuff for months at least.
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Reading between the lines, it seems to me the possible underlying issue is LESS the need/desire to kill the NPC, and MORE that the OP fears that the GM's motivation is borne from the desire to play favorites with his wife, even if it means screwing over the rest of the party/PCs.
This therefore is more of a meta-issue with a player-GM relationship problem.
And this leads me to the classic advice: DON'T RESOLVE OUT OF GAME ISSUES IN CHARACTER. That just leads to bitterness and tears and campaigns imploding horribly.
It may not be fun, but you need to have a chat with your GM about this fear and work it out, adult-like, with civil conversation. Having a chat with your fellow players about their take on the problem might also be a good idea.
ETA: And ninjaed by james maissen, who said it more concisely and clearly than I did.
Do you know for sure she is feeding information to the bad guys? Has something specifically in-game revealed that to the group? Or was she just kidnapped and cloned?
As a PC I'd be wondering how to use her connection with the aliens as my lynchpin to defeating them instead of taking her out of play and possibly wrecking my chance at victory....or at least wary of the possibility. I'm going to agree with previous suggestions of a misinformation campaign using the NPC.
I know this may be bordering on metagaming, but if the GM is so hell-bent on keeping the NPC in question around, there must be a good reason other than its a PCs squeeze. Find it in-game. Otherwise, I'd fully expect my DM to let me live with the consequences of getting rid of a story-linked NPC.
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In the last game she was 'kidnapped' however she took with her all the parties valuables that weren't on our person, crippled our transport (airship), and she built a monster with the bad guys specifically designed to kill us with detailed knowledge of our weaknesses and magical items.
Why don't the other PCs and/or players (excepting the enamored one) want to get rid of this NPC as much as you do?
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Your DM needs to de-villianize his DMPC. You two need to sit down and talk this over like adults.
It's a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to assume that people coming here for advice haven't spoken to their group otherwise, as most when pressed admit they don't. So well done on you for heading us off at the pass there =) It is generally a safer bet on the forums to assume they haven't though.
Welcome, by the way.
it's more than an NPC. it's a cohort in everything except name. would you like it if another player tried to kill your familiar, animal companion, etc? same scenario applies to killing cohorts.
that's why i said cohort in everything except name. just because the wife's character didn't take leadership doesn't mean her cohort isn't her cohort.
some DM awards often mimic the effects of free feats granted by the story-line. such as cohorts handed out without spending a feat.
it may not technically be a class feature, but considering how long she has been around. the cohort is a cohort whom has had at least a year to bond with the party and if remember, grew up under the party's care as a ward before marrying a PC. that's the roleplayers equivalent to the leadership feat. and even if you aren't targeting the character specifically. targeting a close friend of that character (even an NPC spouse) can be seen as the same as declaring a feud against that character. and doing so might cause a lot of unwanted inter-party conflict.
just because you can get an absurdly high bluff bonus doesn't mean the party won't find out. a heal check can identify the cause of death, and you may have trouble dealing with the party once the conflict starts. an ally that has been an intimate friend for several years of game time, raised from childhood by the group, should not be something so disposable.
the moment player characters and their NPC allies become disposable, is the moment immersion drops.
if you are so worried about the intel. hiding the girl in a shelter run by a friendly contact of yours does more good than killing her. it accomplishes the same objective. but with less hostility.
the character is an NPC?
so are cohorts, familiars, animal companions and bonded mounts.
or as above, you could look for a way to sever her connection from the villain.
Sleep-walker, I think you should be able to do this, but the idea of keeping it a secret from the rest of the gaming group is just abhorrent to me. Also, keeping it from the rest of the PC party could be bad too. I see all kinds of ways this could go wrong.
I get that you want the reveal, but are you sure none of the other players are going to be offended when they find out? If a party member is trying to keep something from me, I would rather fail my Sense Motive and have to pretend I didn't know then not be allowed one. Your character is probably going to have to lie constantly. If you can win every time, that is fine, but the players should be aware that they can call BS on you. There is a big difference in lying to other PC's than there is in lying to an NPC. Is this common in your group? People keeping secrets from the rest of the party? If not, I wouldn't start. Small secrets are forgivable, but this sounds huge.
In game, I won't point out the ways your plan could fail or succeed. I don't have all the facts. I will throw out that you had better be very thorough. If you do this without party consent and get caught, you have just made the situation worse. You guys are facing a Big Bad from the sounds of it. Can you risk throwing complete disunity into the party? The odds are in your favor. The rewards sounds huge. The consequences of failure could be staggering. I would share my plan with the rest of the party, explain she will be very safe in the gem, and hope they agree with you.
Well, that is my two copper. Now I am going to read your GM's thread. This is an interesting situation!
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I'm confused about your DM, not you. I haven't read the other thread, so I apologize for jumping in without a clue of your DM's perspective.
First things first, a DM's job is as a story teller and Facilitator. I see WAY TO MANY DMs who feel their job in the game is to be the anti-hero to the campaign. To any DMs reading this, YOU CANNOT "WIN" DnD, you are not a player and thus have no stake in "winning". Any scenario you setup where you care more about "your" NPCs than you do about the players is a scenario you are actively courting pissing off your players.
Don't get me wrong, I've made the mistake. Even at 37 after 20 years of DMing campaigns I STILL have to check myself almost EVERY TIME I run a campaign not to get TOO involved in the life bar of my anti-hero.
Back to your scenario: The DM has created an NPC, linked that NPC to your ultimate enemy, given you the task of beating this ultimate enemy, fed you enough information to make you believe this NPC is working against you (intentionally or unintentionally) and he expects this NPC NOT to meet it's death at the party's hands?
Here, again, he is a story facilitator. If this NPC is truly a linchpin and he's painted himself into a corner with the NPC he can't get out of, and he truly doesn't want you to kill this NPC then I suggest following the DM's advice. Sounds like an excellent time for the NPC to reveal all of her secrets (or most of them) in an EXCELLENT dialog about her experiences when she was kidnapped with hard evidence why she's either not expendable or not working for the enemy.
If she can't do that, if this just doesn't work, any good DM worth his salt has to be willing to follow the story. I was playing in a Cthulhu campaign once that pretty much reproduced the "alien" story...at least to some effects. At the end of the campaign someone was going to die by letting hundreds of thousands of volts of electricity pass through them. My character had the technical skills the DM was counting on to save the REST of the party while the classic hero character was supposed to be the sacrificial lamb. Unfortunately earlier in the campaign my character had decided through events that happened to her that she was tired of being the "last survivor" (think Ripley from Alien) of these alien massacres so she sacrificed herself to save the rest...thereby damning all of them to death (no one saw the DM's plan till later).
Thing is, the DM let this happen. He didn't try to step in and change things, he didn't try to talk me out of frying myself, he didn't reveal part of his plan and say "now let's reconsider". He facilitated the story and allowed what he knew to be the worst possible ending to happen...because that's what you DO as a DM.
While I appreciate everyone saying "If the DM is trying to keep this NPC Alive there must be a reason." If he's not revealing the reason and simply pleading with the party to not kill the NPC there's something broken with the story.
And if the DM can't handle the fact that it's his wife's love interest in the campaign that's about to get whacked, and his wife can't handle her love interest getting whacked by the DM / Another player, you ALREADY have several strikes against your campaign.
* You have an NPC that is immortal. No matter what ever happens in the campaign you all KNOW the NPC will never die. It doesn't take long for the party to come to grips with this fact and abuse it to the death of the campaign.
* You have "protected players", if sending the NPC in as fauder doesn't work, send HIS WIFE IN as fauder...have her stand in front and tank the Terrasque. If he's not willing to kill his wife's lover NPC he's CERTAINLY not willing to kill his wife's character.
Explain to your DM that his story is going off the rails at this point. The only thing you can do as a DM to protect something like this from happening in your campaign is Deus Ex Machina...and doing so is ALWAYS the first step to an unbelievable, and thus very distracting, campaign.
The fact that he DM has already given you all the tools and THOUGHT THROUGH these things (lead protects from divination...who the hell has THAT house rule who hasn't already pre-supposed this kind of thing happening, etc.) leads me to believe he's simply playing favourites.
Explain to your DM he either needs to come up with a good, in game, reason or you're shivving mommy's little lover spy at the first available opportunity :)
the two of you need to read each other's threads. only then can you understand each other on the same wavelength.
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Just to add, I have a huge amount of respect for my DM and I do not believe he is playing favourites. I don't believe it is particularly relevant that the NPC is romantically linked to his wife's PC, if it were linked to another PC I believe the situation would be the same. I don't believe he would have an issue killing his wife's pc any more than killing any other PC.
I don't believe the NPC is immortal, I believe the DM has her death scene in mind and has had for a long time. I just don't want to play the scenes which lead up to that death scene. I would rather act now and save her life (in the long run). "In order to save the village it became necessary to destroy it"
I do believe the DM is attached to the NPC. In a campaign where most of the villains are personality less bugs, he loves his recurring villains and NPCs.
Here, Again, I have a problem with this. (My current players who may read this will be rolling their eyes when they see this because it's a complaint I've had with my own active campaign, giving you advice and actually following it are two different things, and the first is MUCH easier than the second).
It sounds like your DM has pre-written the ending. It would save you BOTH a lot of trouble if he'd simply have everyone put down the dice and read you his pre-written ending.
He has the death scene of an NPC already in mind? Then the events leading up to that death scene must already be there also. How much of this campaign is little more than "Ok, you're now going to do this...please roll for it?"
That's the difference between the DM being a story FACILITATOR and the DM being a story TELLER. He (and I, many times) needs to be reminded that he's not reading a book to you, he's creating a story with you, and in that his ending, while quaint, is IRRELEVANT. That might be what he works toward in the story, but he cannot and SHOULD NOT *STOP* you from enacting an alternate ending he hasn't come up with.
I think that's the crux of the issue you two are discussing...you're going off the beaten path with a story he has pre-conceived. At this point, I agree with the others on the thread, it's time to get your DM's permission to go read his thread and get your viewpoints straightened out.
I just don't see how you could get away with it.
She is a high level caster... that has been kidnapped before. More then likely she will have defenses against most tactics you could employ. I posted on the other thread just a few of those tactics that are quite common for a high level caster.
There are spells that make it almost impossible to kill a caster. Contingency combined with several divination spells make it near impossible to get the drop on her. And after being a victim once its totally possible that she would have these up.
You will need to talk to your DM if you wish this to go off without a hitch. Otherwise you will more then likely be caught. And then there will be a in game rift in the party right before the final fight in your campaign.
Talk to your DM. This my post, his post TMZ stuff will only lead to ruin.
the infinite supply of clones is enough of a reason to call an NPC immortal. especially when you can handwave and bypass any of the following.
1. bypass the time required to grow each clone
2. bypass the financial costs to construct each clone
3. bypass the believable limit and have just as many as you need
4. have the freedom to choose whatever clone you wish
5. bypass the negative levels of being born into a clone
6. completely transfer the current memories and consciousness to the clone instantaneously upon death
7. bypass the financial costs to equip, clothe, and feed, each clone
8. bypass the physical therapy requirements of each clone.
also, cloning requires one of two things
1.a really high level arcane caster who either knows the spell or has it prepared.
or
2. really advanced technology that is usually more common in Sci Fi settings than Fantasy. and even then, is prohibitively expensive. even if the chemical components of a human body can be bought on a child's allowance.
I'm glad I'm not your GM. I had a game end due to a similar issue.
As a player? If you pulled something like this I'd have refused to play with you again. But then, we don't allow evil PCs in our games.
And yes, this is an evil action.
So, why don't you present your problem to the other PCs in game and come up with a solution?
"Look, IMO, she's a threat to us, the world, and herself. What can we do about it?"
From all you've said, though, it would appear they don't see it that way.
Your call.
A better solution? Set the trap to the mind-bug, freeing her from it's influence.
If your GM is trying to save a character from you, I am guessing it is probably for one of two reasons.
-If the character is a fundamental element in an unfolding plot, I would expect that you see some pretty nasty shock waves from the death or divine intervention to foil your plans.
-If he is simply trying to keep a party cohesive, you should really sell the party on the idea first before creating a potential schism in the group. "It's what my character would do" isn't really a good excuse for antagonistic antisocial behavior, if everyone played by that style the antisocial characters would never have been part of the party in the first place. I am not saying you do fall into this last group, just trying to imagine why such a disagreement would be present.
Why aren't you using her to feed disinformation to the enemy?
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If all of the players were on-board then keeping the mole mis-informed would be an option. The mole is in a relationship with a PC who will not agree to such a plan.
And that's retarded. I'd also gamble the wife of the GM is perfectly happy to leverage that status in and out of game. There is a complete (and unhealthy) meta-level going on here, where the GM is catering to his wife and the wife is protecting the DM's storyline. And the other players are supposed to sit on their hands and allow it.
Sleep, I am literally BEGGING YOU to share with the forum, or at least message me how this situation gets resolved. I am betting all in the GM does you wrong.
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Seriously, do not do this. Although the leadership feat may not be involved the NPC is a cohort in all but name. Do not PVP. Especially do not PVP the GM's wife.
If the GM is plotting against you it's because you're being a jerk to his wife. If you try to push this you will either get kicked out of or cause the complete break up of the gaming group because the GM is rightly going to put his real world marriage first.
If you can't handle this leave the group.
If a GM sets up a campaign so that months of collective story-telling amounts to a mental-masturbation exercise for his spoiled wife, he's a s#$$ty GM... no matter how good the stories are. NO PLAYER... SHOULD EVER... have to sit on their hands and sacrifice all agency because the GM has rigged the story to hinge on a pet NPC... that belongs to his wife is even worse.
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I'm glad I'm not your GM. I had a game end due to a similar issue.
As a player? If you pulled something like this I'd have refused to play with you again. But then, we don't allow evil PCs in our games.
And yes, this is an evil action.
So, why don't you present your problem to the other PCs in game and come up with a solution?
"Look, IMO, she's a threat to us, the world, and herself. What can we do about it?"
From all you've said, though, it would appear they don't see it that way.Your call.
A better solution? Set the trap to the mind-bug, freeing her from it's influence.
It's not evil to refuse to bare your throat to the evil.
It's not evil to refuse to bare your throat to the evil.I'm glad I'm not your GM. I had a game end due to a similar issue.
As a player? If you pulled something like this I'd have refused to play with you again. But then, we don't allow evil PCs in our games.
And yes, this is an evil action.
So, why don't you present your problem to the other PCs in game and come up with a solution?
"Look, IMO, she's a threat to us, the world, and herself. What can we do about it?"
From all you've said, though, it would appear they don't see it that way.Your call.
A better solution? Set the trap to the mind-bug, freeing her from it's influence.
And if, say, Dumbledore had slit Harry's throat right away, Voldemort would never have returned and hundreds of people would still be alive. Including Snape. And Neville's parents might never have been torutred to insanity, giving him a normal life. Hey, it's only one orphaned child.
Am I saying the DM's playing a Harriet Potter here? I don't know. I'm just saying slaughtering or imprisoning someone (even in a game) because they may be a threat later is evil.
I'm saying find another way.
I can think of so many ways this could go bad, even if he succeeds.
She's trapped in the gem with only the mind-bug for company? Stockholm Syndrome. Once released, she becomes just exactly the threat he thinks she is now.
When released/resurected, you get the bug, not her, the spell permanently melded them and the bug is in control.
She's got a lover in game? If the other character is male she's pregnant. Remember Alien?
And even if everything goes just right and the group defeats the big bad without any aid the NPC might have been slated to provide (GM providing the needed quality elsewhere for the PCs to use), what hapens when he releases her?
'Oh, I lied and trapped her in a soul gem. Sorry, spouse PC and the rest of the group for all the emotional stress when you thoght she'd betrayed us all and run off. But it all worked out in the end, didn't it? I was right...why are you all looking at me like that?'. ::ooc::yes I told the DM and...why is your wife walking out?::/ooc::
Good thing the 3 year long campaign is over.
Oh, and just as a side comment, I mentioned these two threads to my hubby, including the GM's wife PC being the NPCs lover. His comment? That makes sense, GM playing a character married to someone else's chracter would be weird.