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For the sake of this question let's assume a Ninja level 12 with all of the above feats + TWF. I won't be including any modifiers from Strength or Dexterity to either attack or damage...
The Ninja also has two "Master Tricks"; Invisible Blade (greater invisibility) and Unarmed Combat Mastery (Unarmed strikes deal damage as Monk -4 levels, or 1d10 damage).
On a full-attack the Ninja would get 3 attacks made at +9/+9/+4 (the -2 from TWF cancels out the +2 from being invisible). I'm trying to wrap my head around the damage. Due to greater invisibility each attack should gain Sneak Attack as the opponent is denied it's dex bonus against all of them. So is the damage;
1d10 +6(Knockout Artist) +12 (Sap Adept) +12d6 (Sap Master)
The bonus damage from Knockout Artist & Sap Adept are untyped so I assume they stack??? I also don't see anything specifying this damage as Precision based - so does it get multiplied on a Critical Hit? I'm reasonably certain that the additional damage dice gained from Sap Master are not multiplied, but less so with the other two feats...
Prerequisite: Sneak attack class feature, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit: When you use your unarmed strike to deal nonlethal damage and sneak attack damage to an opponent denied his Dexterity bonus to AC, you gain a +1 bonus on the damage roll per each sneak attack damage die you roll.
Prerequisite: Sneak attack +1d6.
Benefit: Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage, you gain a bonus on your damage roll equal to twice the number of sneak attack damage dice you rolled.
Prerequisite: Sneak attack +3d6, Sap Adept.
Benefit: Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage to a flat-footed opponent, roll your sneak attack dice twice, totaling the results as your nonlethal sneak attack damage for that attack.
I'm sorry of this question has been previously asked/answered... I'm at work and our computers are sooo slow it freezes when I try to use the search function...
Presuming my assumption on damage may be wrong I would appreciate being shown where in the rules I go off the rails with my comprehension!
Cheers,
You seem to have it right, I think sap master + sap adept together might add another + 12 damage. Since sap adept works whenever you apply sneak attack damage and sap master adds your sneak attack day age again.
I might be reading too much into it though. Your basic math all seems solid.
For the sake of this question let's assume a Ninja level 12 with all of the above feats + TWF. I won't be including any modifiers from Strength or Dexterity to either attack or damage...
The Ninja also has two "Master Tricks"; Invisible Blade (greater invisibility) and Unarmed Combat Mastery (Unarmed strikes deal damage as Monk -4 levels, or 1d10 damage).
On a full-attack the Ninja would get 3 attacks made at +9/+9/+4 (the -2 from TWF cancels out the +2 from being invisible). I'm trying to wrap my head around the damage. Due to greater invisibility each attack should gain Sneak Attack as the opponent is denied it's dex bonus against all of them. So is the damage;
1d10 +6(Knockout Artist) +12 (Sap Adept) +12d6 (Sap Master)
The bonus damage from Knockout Artist & Sap Adept are untyped so I assume they stack??? I also don't see anything specifying this damage as Precision based - so does it get multiplied on a Critical Hit? I'm reasonably certain that the additional damage dice gained from Sap Master are not multiplied, but less so with the other two feats...
Prerequisite: Sneak attack class feature, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit: When you use your unarmed strike to deal nonlethal damage and sneak attack damage to an opponent denied his Dexterity bonus to AC, you gain a +1 bonus on the damage roll per each sneak attack damage die you roll.
Prerequisite: Sneak attack +1d6.
Benefit: Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage, you gain a bonus on your damage roll equal to twice the number of sneak attack damage dice you rolled.
I'm sorry of this question has been previously asked/answered... I'm at...Prerequisite: Sneak attack +3d6, Sap Adept.
Benefit: Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage to a flat-footed opponent, roll your sneak attack dice twice, totaling the results as your nonlethal sneak attack damage for that attack.
1) Why Sap Master?
It only works when target is Flat footed not denied dex.This makes it useless except in 1st round of combat.
2) You are limited to 1d10 +6(Knockout Artist) +12 (Sap Adept)
1) Why Sap Master?
It only works when target is Flat footed not denied dex.
This makes it useless except in 1st round of combat.
Or unless you have some means of rendering an opponent flat-footed. Shatter Defenses is a personal favorite.
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1) Why Sap Master?
It only works when target is Flat footed not denied dex.
This makes it useless except in 1st round of combat.2) You are limited to 1d10 +6(Knockout Artist) +12 (Sap Adept)
Perfect - I thought it seemed "too good". I missed that part about being flat-footed. So basically it's only beneficial during a surprise round or as you mentioned, the first round of combat (assuming the Ninja wins initiative).
Am I correct in my assumption that the untyped damage from Knockout Artist & Sap Adept stack? Any thought as to whether or not it's precision damage or otherwise not multiplied on a critical hit?
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Or unless you have some means of rendering an opponent flat-footed. Shatter Defenses is a personal favorite.
That's true - but it's a hefty feat investment to be able to pull it all together...
1) TWF, Human Bonus). Weapon Finesse
2) Trick: Improved Unarmed Strike
3) Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
4) Trick: Combat Trick (Sap Adept)
5) Sap Master or Dazzling Display
6) Trick: Vanishing Trick
7) Dazzling Display or Sap Master
8) Trick: ?
9) Shatter Defenses
10) Master Trick: Invisible Blade
11) Improved TWF
12) Master Trick: Unarmed Combat Mastery
Looks like it could come together by level 12 with 1 Ninja Trick to spare... Of course you could delay Weapon Finesse until later and take it as a "Rogue Talent" or gain Weapon Focus as a Trick...
I guess it works in theory - I'll have to build it up to see if it could work in a game (or if it would be worth it even)
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You seem to have it right, I think sap master + sap adept together might add another + 12 damage. Since sap adept works whenever you apply sneak attack damage and sap master adds your sneak attack day age again.
I might be reading too much into it though. Your basic math all seems solid.
Good catch. If you're rolling 12d6 with Sap Master it stands to reason that the bonus from Sap Adept jumps to +24. Same goes for knockout artist (up to +12).
So now, by RAW the damage from those sources looks like;
1d10 +12d6 (Sap Master), +24 (Sap Adept), +12 (knockout artist).
That seems absurd to me. I realize it's situational, but I'm wondering if perhaps the feats are not supposed to interact this way?
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personally, i read RAI the part of sap master pointedly saying you roll twice and add that total instead of saying you roll double sneak attack dice, to mean it doesn't work that way
For Example, you are reading it to count as 24 dice for applying sap adept. Instead of that, could I only apply 6 dice(which are doubled to twelve) still getting 1d10 +6d6(sap master), +12 (Sap Adept) +6(Knockout Artist) and use 6 levels of various rogue/ninja talents/feats that require sacrificing dice with those *ghost* dice?
If you say yes, my only question is, "When and where is your next game, cause i'm bringing my Skulking Slayer with a Greatclub to it and making all those dice into d8s on a charge..."
EDIT:(and yes, he has shatter defenses for after the charge if they're still standing)
Thank you for the reply - this is exactly the kind of discussion I'm looking for - if I'm inferring something that isn't there I want to know about it.
I'm not reading it as 24 dice. I'm reading it as follows;
1. 6d6 (base sneak attack damage).
2. "Roll your sneak attack dice twice" - Sap Master... Okay so now we are at 6d6 + 6d6 = 12d6
3. +24 - Sap Adept "you gain a bonus on your damage roll equal to twice the number of sneak attack damage dice you rolled". Okay, I rolled 12 dice in step 2. Double 12 you get 24...
4. +12 - Knockout Artist "you gain a +1 bonus on the damage roll per each sneak attack damage die you roll". Okay so that's +12.
So that's how I'm arriving at my totals. I know the math is correct if we assume that I have read and interpretted the rules as written correctly.
I'm not certain I have read and interpretted the rules correctly. I have a gut feeling I've glossed over the spirit of the rule (which is more important to me then RAW).
Cheers,
D
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Here is an update from James Jacobs on this subject. His explanation clearly illustrates how the order of my application of the feats in question skewed the math.
IF you had a ninja 12 and those three feats... when you sneak attack with a nonlethal bludgeoning weapon, you would do so like this:Roll your attack normally. Then add your sneak attack damage. Your sneak attack is a 6d6 attack, and therefore Sap Adept adds +12 damage (twice the total number of sneak attack dice). Your sneak attack damage is now 6d6+12.
Then Knockout Artist kicks in, granting you another +6 damage. You're now doing 6d6+18 damage on a sneak attack.
Sap Master only doubles the sneak attack dice—it doesn't double your level's total amount of sneak attack dice allowed for your level, and THAT is what Knockout Artist and Sap Adept look for.
Therefore, in the end, with all these things working together... you're doing sneak attack damage of 12d6+18. It IS a lot of damage, though. It's that Sap Master attack that really puts it over the top though.
Now that I know exactly what the damage output is I'll build this character up to see if it's viable for game play. I think it will be "too many eggs in one basket" sort of thing where it will be very powerful in certain campaigns and dreadfully poor in others.
Now that I know exactly what the damage output is I'll build this character up to see if it's viable for game play. I think it will be "too many eggs in one basket" sort of thing where it will be very powerful in certain campaigns and dreadfully poor in others.
Constructs and undead are both immune to nonlethal damage, so it might be worth asking your GM if those are going to be common enemy types.
Did the Sap Master feat change as well?
And going this route with underhanded is nice for surpirse round attacks, but a lot of trouble to pull off somehow.
With this interpretation of the feat and the differentiation between flat-footed and denied DEX im disappointed in the feat.
While it does good damage, its still only nonlethal, what makes the list of immune foes larger, and you also have to get your sneak attack, what just became more difficult because you already invested a lot of feats.
Also hitting unarmed is not the most easy thing in this game.
Kind of ranting.
Rogues are not broken, but the possibilities always get limited or cut down, don´t know why.
I had a character using this feat chain, bludgeoner, a slingstick and invisible blade to great advantage. Perhaps we played that wrong.