Heya Folks,
This is my first post on the boards. While I've done my research on this topic, I'm still finding it difficult to pick a feat which just became open for me. I'm currently playing a sword and board TWF human 1 fighter/6 paladin of Iomedae.
Somewhere around the divine bond (5 or 6ish) I was able to get a griffon as the mount. The DM allowed me to switch the build to the chevalier archetype. This opened up a feat, because I had taken mounted combat at level 5 and it then became a free feat added to my list. Here is what I have right now:
Str 20 (+2 belt)
Dex 20 (+4 from Book)
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 18 (+2 bump from Desna)
Feats:
1 Weapon Focus Longsword, TWF, Improved Shield Bash
3 Double Slice
5 ?????
7 Shield Slam
Chevalier free Feats:
Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack
The longsword the paladin carries is an object familiar. I've narrowed my feats down to three. I'm open to suggestion beyond that. I'm just trying to figure out one that will work best.
1. Focused Study: ARG was not out when the campaign started and the DM gave me permission to rework the character to add that in. It's a great story feat, because I'm playing the character similar to a witch hunter in Warhammer (yes I know Inquisitor would have worked better). It would allow me to put skill focus in Sense Motive and Intimidate or Perception or Diplomacy by next level.
2. Longsword Specialization: This gives me a +2 to damage with my main weapon, but I get nothing for the shield. Because of it being an object familiar I can take the specialization.
3. Power Attack: Everything I read says this feat is a "must have", but I'm not entirely convinced. By next level I'd be taking a -5 to hit with both weapons and gaining +6 to damage. It works REALLY well against creatures I smite and situationally when I just hit with the longsword, but isn't a -5 too huge a penalty to burden for normal full attack?
I'm just looking for any suggestions on what to take. I've bounceed it around and I just can't decide. If there is something else I should take, feel free to throw it out there as well. Thanks for all the help.
As far as I know all books other than 3.5 books are allowed. We had real trouble with balancing those out. They are allowed, but on a VERY rare basis.
Originally I made the character with a scimitar focus, because personally I just love the crits. However the DM gave the character an item familiar that is a longsword and it matches the goddesses preferred weapon. Story wise it works, but power wise the scimitar would have been better. The sword is currently only +1, bestows the alertness feat when held, and has 10cha,10int,10wis (well 12 in one of those, but I don't know which one)
Right now the character has a light mithral shield of bashing +1. I'm not opposed to doing something different, but I can't see it working out with needing to keep the longsword. (Not to mention the character can upgrade his own longsword)
Can you re-organise to take Shield Slam at 5 and then take Improved TWF at 7th?
First of all, take Power Attack. Why? It dovetails with your Smites. Also, unlike your shield, you can use it on Standard actions, when you're at no to hit penalty.
Realize that Smite affects ALL your attacks. So, You'd be at -1/+13 damage...when you get to full attack.
Also realize that you have the option NOT to attack with your shield. You also have the option to use two hands on your long sword. If you two hand your longsword, you'll be at +2/+15!
THink of your shield as being optional...you'll want it for a lot of fights, but not all fights. A quick Draw shield would be a good investment...charge/close with the enemy, two hand smash the enemy, and then quick draw your shield to get your AC back.
You should probably never start a fight with your shield equipped, if you are not fearing an ambush. CLose with the enemy, give them a big chop, and then equip it.
Specialization is probably not worth it for you. Extra Channel Energy, or Controlled Channelling, or an Extra Mercy, might be, however.
==Aelryinth
Just curious, but why do you have an object familiar?
It was given to the character as induction in to a knighthood. Pretty cool story.
Actually, I'd ignore Power Attack as you have done. On average, -1 to hit for +2 damage actually doesn't affect your DPR much at all. Against some high ACs it even reduces it. Most of the time it's only worth doing with a two-handed weapon and Furious Focus.
Changing things around to take Shield Slam at 5 and ITWF at 7 is really not a bad idea at all. I was going to wait and pick that up at 9, but going early is not a bad idea.
Power Attack is definitely the way to go for two handers for sure. Aelryinth put a good perspective on the whole power attack though. It's definitely situational, but it can pack some real punch in those limited times. It makes you more flexible.
Are you going for DPS or are you the tank/wall?
Since you went sword and board but went TWF it's sorta blurred...
What role do you expect this guy to play?
Changing things around to take Shield Slam at 5 and ITWF at 7 is really not a bad idea at all. I was going to wait and pick that up at 9, but going early is not a bad idea.
Power Attack is definitely the way to go for two handers for sure. Aelryinth put a good perspective on the whole power attack though. It's definitely situational, but it can pack some real punch in those limited times. It makes you more flexible.
This is true, but you have Smite for those occasions as well. Power Attack is gravy, but for a Sword & board TWFer you need to take the shield feats and the TWF feats first. That full attack with smite will make up for any deficiency in your initial single strike.
He is going to devote a lot of feats to something he isn't going to get to use a lot.
TWF requires a full attack. It's the DM that decides when you get to make a full attack.
A Paladin's damage comes from his Smites, and he MUST be able to do significant damage on a charge.
A TWF Paladin is going to be burning all his feats on something that will make him situationally awesome and other times just bleh.
Get Power Attack. Not every enemy is going to be smitable. Not every attack is going to be part of a full attack action. You'll have bonuses to hit and this is how you spend them.
Then, start considering some defensive feats. After all, you still have to get Shield Master, and the flavor one you mentioned, and extra channeling, and isn't there a channel to smite feat? Heh.
Paladins win with fights, and they slog through the rest with Power Attack.
==Aelryinth
@BltzKrg242
To be perfectly honest with you I wasn't sure what I was going for. The research I did suggested that I play a two handed paladin or archer paladin. Those two seem to be the most optimal for damage. It just sounded more fun to be a knight that fights with sword and bashes his enemies with a shield. I thought briefly about a fighter and ranger, but decided paladin fit the character story better.
My original plan was to wield scimitar and shield. By level 11 he might be able to swing a +5 bashing shield and with shield master it would really kick some rear end. Add in a keen scimitar and I would be adding in awesome criticals as well. ROLEplay always comes first, however, and the story just changed on me. It's not necessarily a bad thing and the story is quite interesting. I switched the focus from scimitar to longsword and trudged on.
Is it worth it to change out the weapon focus for power attack? Right now I'm thinking I'll go with the focused study. You can't complain too much about getting a feat that will offer you 3 skills focuses in the long run. Sense Motive and then what? Diplomacy? Intimidate? Ride? Perception? Can't decide. The unfortunate part is that would make my feats look like this:
9 ITWF
11 Shield Master
13 Power Attack
That seems to be a long time to wait for power attack. Aerlyinth is right though, the character does seem to be not very strong in regular combats as opposed to other characters, but he rocks against the BBEG's.
Don't worry about ITWF. It won't come into play enough and the -5 to hit means the increased miss chance makes it not worth a feat.
If you are lucky enough to get a full attack off, you get a bunch of extra damage from your shield bash with no penalty. I'd save ITWF until you have nothing else you want.
Get power attack now. It comes into play whenever YOU want it to come into play. That's very, very useful.
You're a chevaliar. It's a given you'll have Ride. As an adventurer, you want Perception. From there, do you want to be able to assess people, or negotiate with them? Look at the party and take whatever role works best. Remember you do have a high Charisma, but not so much wisdom. Do you NEED Skill Focus do be a decent diplomat?
Funny thing about Shield Master. Your OTHER weapon still has the -2 to hit once you take it. So, are you going to make your shield your primary weapon on a full attack, so you can get the attacks without penalty?
Seems weird, doesn't it?
==Aelryinth
oh, and I should probably point out that you are a spellcaster, and you know, you could always take an item crafting feat.
Like, I dunno, craft arms and armor, to get your weapon, shield and armor for half price.
See, the funny thing about a shield is you can enhance it as a weapon AND as armor.
Even funnier, if you have Shield Mastery, you could, say, have +5 Defending spikes on your shield, use them all on defense, and if your shield is a +5 shield, you get BOTH...+5 defender from it as a weapon, and it's still a +5 weapon, drawn from Shield enhancement.
This is the Uber Shield...+5 Large Spiked Shield of Bashing, w +5 Defender spikes. That's +12 of AC hanging on your arm, and a +5 Shield w 2-12 dmg base. 108,000 gp. At level 20, that shield could be +10/+10 for 300,000 gp...higher then your Item familiar!
:) The joys of being a shield user!
Oh, Btw, I believe there's a set of gloves out there that give ITWF if you have TWF.
==Aelryinth
He is going to devote a lot of feats to something he isn't going to get to use a lot.
TWF requires a full attack. It's the DM that decides when you get to make a full attack.
And why would he never get to make a full attack? You say the DM decides, but actually it's the situation, and I have seen few fights where the fighters never get a chance to full-attack.
I would say there are maybe one or two situations where he won't get the oiption to full attack, but most he will.
A Paladin's damage comes from his Smites, and he MUST be able to do significant damage on a charge.
Smite is significant damage all on it's own. Nothing does damage if you miss the attack, though, and Power Attack increases the odds that you will miss.
A TWF Paladin is going to be burning all his feats on something that will make him situationally awesome and other times just bleh.
For a paladin, bleh is good enough.
Get Power Attack. Not every enemy is going to be smitable. Not every attack is going to be part of a full attack action. You'll have bonuses to hit and this is how you spend them.
Do not get Power Attack unless you are using a two handed weapon, then you need Power Attack and Furious Focus. It otherwise adds nothing to DPR.
Then, start considering some defensive feats. After all, you still have to get Shield Master, and the flavor one you mentioned, and extra channeling, and isn't there a channel to smite feat? Heh.
Paladins win with fights, and they slog through the rest with Power Attack.
Paldins don't need power attack to unload awesome damage. The best way for them to maximise on smite is either as an archer or TWFer.
Is it worth it to change out the weapon focus for power attack?
No! +1 to hit is effectively +2 to damage on every attack inthe long term. Power Attack is...well, it applies -1 to hit for +2 to damage, so go figure. If you are two-handing a weapon, go for Power Attack, sure, but right now you are committed to sword & board.
For a fighter, who has the spare feats, Power Attack is a good sideline to TWF if he's going the TWF route. For a paladin, who doesn't have the feats, it isn't. Max out on attacks and you max out on smite damage.
You're trying to mix in personal experience as a justifier.
1) The DM lets a Melee make full attacks. Nothing smart stands there and eats a full attack, especially from a Smiting Paladin. The majority of non-archery combat rounds are spent as charges and standard actions...and you've got to be able to perform in those instances.
2) A Paladin has full BAB, high Str, a good weapon, and, if smiting, ANOTHER substantial bonus to hit. Especially if he's only getting one attack, Power Attack is fine.
3)Bleh is bleh. Fighting neutrals for d8 +8 dmg is bleh. Actually, non-smiting for d8+8 is bleh. Power Attacking for d8+14 looks a lot better.
4) Furious Focus is a stand-in for Vital Strike on SA's. It's a different argument. Power Attack has been used to up damage FOREVER for Melees. Power Attack lets you convert Bardsong, Haste bonuses, Prayer, Bless, Heroism, Charge, Flanking, Higher Ground and flat-footed bonuses into extra damage. Melee characters rapidly get to the level where they auto-hit stuff of the appropriate challenge level, and Power Attack converts those 'extra' bonuses straight to damage.
Statistically, if you have +20 to hit, and the opponent is AC 20, you should power attack, because you'll then be at +18, and miss on the 1 you would miss on anyways...meaning damage is going to go up. If you are at +25, you're wasting tons of to hit on melee damage. Statistically, you want your main attack to go off at 95%, and maximize the damage thereon, iteratives to follow. Otherwise, you're wasting bonuses to hit.
5)Smite is a Paladin's sneak attack. It's also highly situational, and limited in uses per day. Against Neutrals, against mooks, the Paladin uses Power Attack to up damage without spending precious smites.
6)If you have high enough bonuses to hit, usually from Strength, there are plenty of builds that swap out Weapon Focus, although it's not as much a Pathfinder thing. Since Paladins don't get free TH raises, like a fighter or a barb, I'd keep it.
Weapon Focus gives +5% damage. That's not +2 damage until you're doing 40 pts of damage. The Power Attack for PF is actually statistically a better tradeoff until your base damage is massive...and at that point, your To-Hit is usually so high you can afford to use it, anyways.
7) Smite includes a substantial To Hit Component, which is often overkill. Convert that bonus to Power Attack damage and go to town, and nova the BBEG even more effectively.
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A level 8 Paladin with 20 str and 20 cha, +2 weapon, is +15 to hit, +16 w Weapon Focus, +5 when smiting.
His damage with a longsword is d8+7. If we have a target AC of 20, I'm going to use 12 avg damage for ease.
80/55% on full attack = 135% of 12 dmg, or 16ish.
WIth Power Attack, 65/40 of 18 dmg, or 105% of 18, or 19.
On single attack, 80% of 12 is 9.6, 65% of 18 is 12.
Power Attacking is STATISTICALLY better in both cases.
Dabbler, I think you were using 3.5 Power Attack, which at -1/+1 is close to break even if one handing. In PF, Power Attacking is almost always the way to go.
=+Aelryinth
The other reason Power Attack is a "must have" for a lot of fighters is that it's a prerequisite for several feat trees (Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder). If you don't want anything in those trees, it's less of an issue.
Also, you still get the 1.5x benefit with Power Attack just by putting two hands on any 1-hand melee weapon. However, with your shield, that's not going to be applicable very often.
For additional shield feats, you might take a look at
Saving Shield (give your allies +2 AC--very paladin-esque and no pre-reqs)
Shield Focus (increase bonus on any shield by +1)
Shield Specialization (+ 2 AC vs critical confirmation rolls and add your shield bonus to CMD--this has Shield Focus as a pre-req)
There are also the "Equipment Trick--Shield" feats if you want to get fancy with it, but I'm not sure if those are legal in your game.
For additional shield feats, you might take a look at
Saving Shield (give your allies +2 AC--very paladin-esque and no pre-reqs)
Shield Focus (increase bonus on any shield by +1)
Shield Specialization (+ 2 AC vs critical confirmation rolls and add your shield bonus to CMD--this has Shield Focus as a pre-req)There are also the "Equipment Trick--Shield" feats if you want to get fancy with it, but I'm not sure if those are legal in your game.
Just a short note.. For Shield Specialization, the character would have to take another 3 levels in fighter first...
Saving Shield DOES seem very Paladin-esque but you have to be adjacent, which should be unusual in combat when trying to flank, etc. I'm not sure that it would come up often?
You're trying to mix in personal experience as a justifier.
1) The DM lets a Melee make full attacks. Nothing smart stands there and eats a full attack, especially from a Smiting Paladin. The majority of non-archery combat rounds are spent as charges and standard actions...and you've got to be able to perform in those instances.
I'm sorry, if this isn't personal experience can you cite sources? I don't see many creatures with acrobatics or Spring Attack, so when you grind up to said creatures they either hit once and run (provoking AoO) or they full-attack you back. Either is an iffy case, either can leave them on the down-side of the exchange of blows. It is not automatically better to run away from something full-attacking you, sometimes it's better for you to full-attack them back.
Unless your paladin also takes Quickdraw on top of Power Attack and Furious Focus he can't fight two handed effectively and then switch to full attacking with TWF/sword & board. You may as well have just said: "Don't bother with TWF, you will never use it" which really isn't very constructive.
2) A Paladin has full BAB, high Str, a good weapon, and, if smiting, ANOTHER substantial bonus to hit. Especially if he's only getting one attack, Power Attack is fine.
Yep, and mechanically, you lose in hits what you gain in damage with Power Attack unless you use a two handed weapon, and even then it's not that fantastic without Furious Focus. Maths don't lie.
3)Bleh is bleh. Fighting neutrals for d8 +8 dmg is bleh. Actually, non-smiting for d8+8 is bleh. Power Attacking for d8+14 looks a lot better.
It looks a lot better, but it's only worth more damage against a low AC target, against a high AC target it actually delivers less DPR.
4) Furious Focus is a stand-in for Vital Strike on SA's. It's a different argument. Power Attack has been used to up damage FOREVER for Melees. Power Attack lets you convert Bardsong, Haste bonuses, Prayer, Bless, Heroism, Charge, Flanking, Higher Ground and flat-footed bonuses into extra damage. Melee characters rapidly get to the level where they auto-hit stuff of the appropriate challenge level, and Power Attack converts those 'extra' bonuses straight to damage.
Your chances to hit have to be 95% or better before those bonuses factor in, or wielding a 2-hander with Furious Focus before the numbers tilt your way.
Statistically, if you have +20 to hit, and the opponent is AC 20, you should power attack, because you'll then be at +18, and miss on the 1 you would miss on anyways...meaning damage is going to go up. If you are at +25, you're wasting tons of to hit on melee damage. Statistically, you want your main attack to go off at 95%, and maximize the damage thereon, iteratives to follow. Otherwise, you're wasting bonuses to hit.
What about iterative attacks...oh sorry, I forgot, you don't believe in full attacks. Well those of us that do find that landing the extra blows is worth losing out on a little damage per blow.
5)Smite is a Paladin's sneak attack. It's also highly situational, and limited in uses per day. Against Neutrals, against mooks, the Paladin uses Power Attack to up damage without spending precious smites.
I agree, Power Attack will go through mooks faster, but then Paladins excel at boos-fights, anyone can fight mooks so it doesn't matter so much.
6)If you have high enough bonuses to hit, usually from Strength, there are plenty of builds that swap out Weapon Focus, although it's not as much a Pathfinder thing. Since Paladins don't get free TH raises, like a fighter or a barb, I'd keep it.
Weapon Focus gives +5% damage. That's not +2 damage until you're doing 40 pts of damage. The Power Attack for PF is actually statistically a better tradeoff until your base damage is massive...and at that point, your To-Hit is usually so high you can afford to use it, anyways.
No, it doesn't. You don't hit, you don't do damage. Statistically I've found +1 to hit is worth +2 to damage no matter what your damage total is, because you score more hits. If you full-attack, you get an extra 5% per hit. You get an extra 5% chance of a crit confirm with each hit. It all adds up.
7) Smite includes a substantial To Hit Component, which is often overkill. Convert that bonus to Power Attack damage and go to town, and nova the BBEG even more effectively.
Again, it's only worth it on one strike per round, and it's only worth it if you two-hand anyway. Your chances to hit have to be 95% without the smite bonus to hit before it's worth doing, and on a foe that easy to hit you aren't bothering to smite.
The one exception to this is when you are fighting something with DR. However, for the paladin this is not such a problem as smite ignores DR, and anything with substantial DR is likely to be the kind of thing he'd smite anyway.
I forgot I had made this thread. It's nice to look back and see where my character was and where he is now. I can't believe it's been almost a year since the last person posted on this. Thanks for everyone's help BTW. It was very helpful in making my decisions.
The character has just attained 15th level and I'm having a rough go on deciding what feat to take.
Someone mentioned above that my paladin is a spell caster and he is not. The Chevalier archetype gives you a really cool mount, but you lose the ability to cast spells.
Somehow our story got REALLY big along the way. The knighthood my character joined decided they would attempt to release the Whispering Tyrant. With the Worldwound active and Lastwall continually fighting the orcs, the numbers fighting had just plain dwindled. Lastwall was fighting a losing battle. The majority of the knighthood thought if they could release the tyrant and control him then they could get more crusaders their direction to deal with the threat in Belkzen. This logic backfired. My character and the group rebelled against this decision and the entire party was killed, but resurrected 7 years later to find Ustalov and Belkzen completely under Tar Baphon's control. Lastwall was under attack when the group was resurrected. Lastwall eventually fell. The group fled south in attempts to garner support and create another crusade of some sorts. The group rebuilt a temple in Cassomir in the country of Taldor. It was an old temple to Aroden. I'm probably going way too deep for asking about a feat...
Here is what I have. What do you think I should take on or off my list?
14 pal /1 fighter
str 24
con 16
dex 20
int 12
wis 10
cha 24
for 23
ref 18
wil 18
weapons:
+3 Holy Flame Longsword
+4 Mithral Shield of Bashing
uber awesome griffin mount.
feats the character has
1 Focused Study (Sense Motive,Diplomacy)
1 Two Weapon Fighting
1 Improved Shield Bash
3 Power Attack
5 Double Slice
7 Shield Slam
9 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
11 Shield Master
13 Leadership (I normally never take this as its cheese, but it worked with building a temple and increasing efforts for the war)
15??????
The character is pretty tough, so I don't know that he needs any more combat type feats, but improved critical longsword or bashing finish aren't bad options.
I could take endurance. It seems rugged and lets the character wear armor while sleeping.
I could take iron will. With the thought of fighting someone as crazy difficult as the whispering tyrant. An extra +2 would give him a 20 to will, which would be helpful.
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You said you didn't need more combat feats, and then listed some combat feats. I might suggest Channel Smite for fun. Too bad you cannot grab Unsanctioned Knowledge.
You said you didn't need more combat feats, and then listed some combat feats. I might suggest Channel Smite for fun. Too bad you cannot grab Unsanctioned Knowledge.
I guess I should word it differently. I'm not against a combat feat. I just think he is pretty tough already. I'm just trying to figure out what would be best for him and see what people might have for suggestions. I'm having a tough time deciding.
I'll take a look at the channel smite feat and unsanctioned knowledge to see what they are. Thanks for all your help.