So the cleric player of my group(just about to start RotRL after about 2 months of delays)has just discovered wands of clw, and he's basically obsessed with them. I explained my experience with them (none of my players have really used them before) and told him they're mainly for out of combat healing.
Then it struck me that after he acquires one the party will probably be at full health after each encounter. The thought of having the fighter and the barbarian back at full health after each encounter hasn't sat well with me.
So I'm pretty sure the player will use the wand after every encounter and the wand will run out of charges fairly quickly, and he wont be able to afford another one without compromising other equipment at low level. But at high level money wont be a problem.
Just unsure what to do on the situation, the only other person I know that has dm'd said he had to ban them from his 3.5 campaign because it got ridiculous that the PC's were at full HP at every encounter.
I'm sure there's threads everywhere about this, but I couldn't find one that exactly fit what I need to talk about, and I need this info fairly quickly.
That is normal. Although if they're trying to save charges, they might say, "Only three hit points down - I'll survive."
If you want people to be injured at the start of an encounter, then either deny them wands (and possibly clerics as well), or throw encounters at them in such rapid succession that they don't have time to heal by wand. But this makes the game considerably harder.
Yes, a wand of clw can be used to get the entire party back to full hp between each encounter. But if that's the only healing the party uses, then they'll be burning through those wands very quickly (especially at higher levels). This tactic also doesn't lend itself well to situations where the party needs to move on quickly (for whatever reason).
You can use drain or curse effects, those can't be removed via cure wounds.
| 13 people marked this as a favorite. |
Step 1: Play
Step 2: Ask everybody if they're having fun
Step 3: If yes, go to Step 1. Else, spend your time watching Netflix or something.
My players could fill an efficient quiver full of wands of clw for all I care. If they keep coming back session after session wanting to play the next part of the adventure path and we're all having a great time, that's good enough for me.
Wouldn't worry about it. As you say they'll run out of charges pretty quick and depending on where they are they probably won't be able to just walk down the block to get a new one. If you're running the game just see how the encounters go and if you need to make things more difficult to keep the sense of danger up throw in another troll or dire corbies or what have you. This item is a pretty standard purchase at low levels and while it definitely helps doesn't drastically alter the challenge of the game either.
Healing everyone up to full health after each fight isn't a very efficient use of resources. Wands will be more affordable at higher levels, yes, but there will also be a lot more HP to heal, and they'll run out of charges a lot faster.If your cleric insists on topping everyone back up to full after each fight, your group will go broke quickly.
You could throw the occasional 15-minute adventuring day at them to emphasize this. Give them one or two stronger encounters in a day, let the cleric blow all the wand charges, then no more fights fot the rest of the day. On a day like this, using the wand to heal everyone back up to full isn't efficient, since the cleric can use his renewable resources (spells and channels) to top the party up just enough that they're back at full after a night's rest; the wand was essentially wasted. Once a few wands have been wasted and the group is counting coppers to get enough for a new one, they might realize they should be a bit more conservative with consumable resources.
|
Don't ban wands; they allow clerics to do something besides heal in combat. Plus, why the stigma against healthy characters? If the party has the resources they are entitled to use them. Depending on the combat, wands can be run through fairly quickly, but they're leaps and bounds better than trying to buy potions.
Well, with channel energy, and the casting of a clw or two, there is a good chance the party would be almost up to full health anyway. The wand will mostly allow the cleric to use his spells for more exciting things. Also, a clw from a wand heals about 5.5 hp per use. This many be very effective at low levels, (when the wand is expensive) but a drop in the bucket by the time you get to mid levels. Using the wand also takes time, makes noise, and can be disarmed or sundered if used in combat.
Make sure that the players know they can't just stroll into any hamlet or trading post and buy a clw wand from the bin. At 5th level they could get craft wand, and make a new one each day, but it isn't free, takes a day of work, and by those levels might get used up by the barbarian alone.
This is part of the tricky balance of consumables. If it starts to feel like the players are abusing it, cut back on their funds, and give them some high priced items they need to save for.
PS for parts 3 and 4 of RotRL, you will be giving your players wands of csw, and those will be getting drained fast!
EDIT: Geeez, I get a cup of coffee while typing, and it's like a ninja swarm up in here
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You could just charge 3 gold per Hit Point and be done with it. I like to call this phenomenon "GP Damage."
Players will do anything to start every fight at full strength, and it would be very foolish of them to do anything else.
Designing adventures without this assumption tends to exacerbate the "15-minute adventuring day" problem.
EDIT: Really, "do nothing" is your best solution. Many, many games work like this and no one bats an eye. Or, if you don't like the dance of paperwork and wand charges, consider giving large amounts of healing for free. The players will still start every fight at full, and you won't have to worry about GP damage.
If your cleric insists on topping everyone back up to full after each fight, your group will go broke quickly.
Not in my experience. It's around 3gp per hit point healed. That's 100 hit points for the price of a Cure Moderate Wounds potion. You can use wands for the majority of your out-of-combat healing, with the occasional cleric channel when injuries are spread evenly.
Generally speaking it's best to heal up pretty fully immediately after a battle by whatever means are available. There's not much advantage to waiting until nightfall before healing.
|
Many good suggestions. Also remember that intelligent enemies may retreat after facing significant threats, instead of fighting to the death. A little post-battle recon by said enemies would reveal the use of the wands, thus making them a target for theft at a later date.
Really clever enemies may even follow along stealthily, wait for the party to engage another threat, and then jump them when the wands come out for the post-battle healing. Wands can be disarmed and snatched up, thus becoming a resource for the bad guys.
Thankfully he isn't neutral/evil Cleric that prefers to use wands of infernal healing. They are slower to use but have more efficient gold to healing ration (fixed 10 hp per 15 gp instead of 1d8+1, for an average of 5.5 for 15 gp).
I'm almost certain that the player will burn through the wand like crazy. I'll explain to him about more in depth about the effects of burning all his money on wands.
I don't really expect him to listen though, he is amendment on using the wands during combat, ever after I explained in detail why it isn't a good idea and that he should use cure spells and channel in combat.
But whatever. I'll talk to him about it, and if then he still decides to make stupid choices that's his call.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Really not sure what the concern is about.
This is a common, and expected tactic.Having someone steal the wands sounds like a bad solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
Talos is just encountering it for the first time. It's something all new players have to come to grips with eventually. We've given him our advice, now he will decide how it suits his playstyle.
I'm almost certain that the player will burn through the wand like crazy. I'll explain to him about more in depth about the effects of burning all his money on wands.
I don't really expect him to listen though, he is amendment on using the wands during combat, ever after I explained in detail why it isn't a good idea and that he should use cure spells and channel in combat.
But whatever. I'll talk to him about it, and if then he still decides to make stupid choices that's his call.
(I apologize if my tone is curt, I really do mean to be helpful)
I'm not sure what he's doing qualifies as a stupid choice.
Not going into every fight with as many HP as possible seems to me to be a stupid choice. Especially since it is a no-waste proposition, where the recovered HP will still be there in the next fight if they haven't been lost again (in which case you needed them to win). Contrast this with 50 or so unused HP trapped in a wand in the backpack of a dead cleric.
Talos, is there a single reason that you can think of not to use the wand to recover as many HP as possible?
EDIT: I'd like to make it clear that I am extremely unhappy with constant wand healing as the status quo, and I have houseruled it out of my game as well. I just took a different approach, because if I removed the source of healing, players would just rest up to full between each encounter. And that would be just as annoying, IMO. I advise you to part with the notion that players will plow forward into a dungeon, ever closer to the hardest fights, with fewer and fewer HP.
Talos is just encountering it for the first time. It's something all new players have to come to grips with eventually. We've given him our advice, now he will decide how it suits his playstyle.Really not sure what the concern is about.
This is a common, and expected tactic.Having someone steal the wands sounds like a bad solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
Haha, Thank you. It's something I've never encountered before, I'm not really into making decisions uninformed. I'm just trying to sort out all possible problems before the campaign starts, and something I know nothing about is fairly high on that priority list.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And then there's the roleplaying consideration: The PCs have been wounded. They have a magic stick of feel-better. Wouldn't you use it? Under what conditions would you say: "No thanks, I prefer to trek further into the smelly dungeon and face the undead monstrosities with a bleeding gash on my leg."
Perhaps you want them to say this, but you'll have to work hard as a GM to create an environment where that makes sense.
I'm almost certain that the player will burn through the wand like crazy. I'll explain to him about more in depth about the effects of burning all his money on wands.
I don't really expect him to listen though, he is amendment on using the wands during combat, ever after I explained in detail why it isn't a good idea and that he should use cure spells and channel in combat.
But whatever. I'll talk to him about it, and if then he still decides to make stupid choices that's his call.
(I apologize if my tone is curt, I really do mean to be helpful)
I'm not sure what he's doing qualifies as a stupid choice.
Not going into every fight with as many HP as possible seems to me to be a stupid choice. Especially since it is a no-waste proposition, where the recovered HP will still be there in the next fight if they haven't been lost again (in which case you needed them to win). Contrast this with 50 or so unused HP trapped in a wand in the backpack of a dead cleric.
Talos, is there a single reason that you can think of not to use the wand to recover as many HP as possible?
EDIT: I'd like to make it clear that I am extremely unhappy with constant wand healing as the status quo, and I have houseruled it out of my game as well. I just took a different approach, because if I removed the source of healing, players would just rest up to full between each encounter. And that would be just as annoying, IMO. I advise you to part with the notion that players will plow forward into a dungeon, ever closer to the hardest fights, with fewer and fewer HP.
I should clarify by stupid choice I meant him using wands instead of cure spells or channel in combat. To quote him "why would I use cure and channel when I can use the wands". Even after thoroughly explaining the pros and cons of using exclusively wands for in combat healing he said he's still going to use wands in combat.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I should clarify by stupid choice I meant him using wands instead of cure spells or channel in combat. To quote him "why would I use cure and channel when I can use the wands". Even after thoroughly explaining the pros and cons of using exclusively wands for in combat healing he said he's still going to use wands in combat.
Whether or not this is a poor choice depends entirely on how he uses those spell slots.
The cleric is not a healbot, it is one of the best classes in the game. If the player knows this, and it attempting to use the wand to help the party survive and his spells to help the party win, he is most definitely making the right decision.
There is a school of thought which holds that using cure (and often channel) in combat is something of a sin. I don't think the matter is that extreme, but there is a grain of truth in it. Actively healing in combat is often one of the least helpful things a cleric can do. You just have to read past the stereotype of clerics as healers.
EDIT: Oh, he's using the wand in combat? Nevermind. That is foolish; barring some great knowledge unseen to me.
Whether or not this is a poor choice depends entirely on how he uses those spell slots.The cleric is not a healbot, it is one of the best classes in the game. If the player knows this, and it attempting to use the wand to help the party survive and his spells to help the party win, he is most definitely making the right decision.
There is a school of thought which holds that using cure (and often channel) in combat is something of a sin. I don't think the matter is that extreme, but there is a grain of truth in it. Actively healing in combat is often one of the least helpful things a cleric can do.
I see your point. However I hope you can see how I considered it stupid to be using actions to switch out to a wand then spend x many rounds healing x many pc's, then switching back to his weapon. When one channel could solve it all in 1 round (kind of a generalized situation I know).
And his attitude has not been I'll use wands to keep my spells for other things, and I might use a channel or cure if it comes to it. He's made it clear that he never going to use these two features, which his is choice and he is free to do so, but I didn't think it was the greatest idea.
EDIT: Oh, he's using the wand in combat? Nevermind. That is foolish; barring some great knowledge unseen to me.
I'm glad we cleared that up, I'm not against the cleric wanting to use wands so it doesn't just turn into "*sigh* ok I'll switch it out for a cure spell". I just wasn't sure if the campaign is assuming that in encounters fairly close to together, the PC's will be slightly physically beat up, not just have expended resources.
EDIT: Oh, he's using the wand in combat? Nevermind. That is foolish; barring some great knowledge unseen to me.I'm glad we cleared that up, I'm not against the cleric wanting to use wands so it doesn't just turn into "*sigh* ok I'll switch it out for a cure spell". I just wasn't sure if the campaign is assuming that in encounters fairly close to together, the PC's will be slightly physically beat up, not just have expended resources.
My understanding is that most parties have a cure wand or three at all times, as much as they can afford. The only way you'll ever keep them from healing to full between encounters is to impoverish them, or string encounters together without time to heal in between. (both things you should actually consider doing on occasion, but not all the time.)
This is why my approach has been to just auto-heal most damage between encounters (the "Strain-Injury Variant" here on the forums) because I could care less about GP damage and wand charges. The whole thing is very dull to me, I'd rather move on to the next encounter.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
With all the relatively cheap ways of healing available to PF characters (and 3.x before that with the ubiquitous 'lesser vigour') the one resource they never run out of is hit points. Given the number of healing wands that the PF adventure paths contain this is clearly accepted and maybe even intended by the writers. I don't much like it having been brought up in original D & D where once your cleric ran out of batteries, everyone died, but it's not that it doesn't work.
I think it's a long term consequence of MMORPGs in which once you're out of combat, everything resets.
Something you need to look at -
That Wand of CLW takes a Cleric of 5th level that has the Feat: Craft Wand. Which then takes resources and a full day to make.
This is no real problem for PC to make if they have the feat but can be a problem for NPC. As clerics of that level usually have other duties to preform.
So while there can be Wands of CLW out there for the PC to buy. You can limit how many are out there that they can buy and at what price.
I've thought about this but I've not really thought about a number just yet. I sincerely doubt Sandpoint has stockpiles of wands of clw. So at low levels his access to them will probably be fairly limited.
I am playing a defensive cleric in a 14th lvl 3.5 campaign. We use wands of cure mod after every encounter and works fine. I only use my healing spells in combat when the fighter or duskblade get full rounded or a mass cure spell when the party gets hit by a really bad AoO. Wands outside of combat are awesome. '
As a note: The cleric SHOULD NEVER BUY HIS OWN WANDS!!!Make the party buy them collectively. This not only helps out the cleric allowing him to spend money on things HE really wants and helps you as a DM cause your beat sticks will take longer to get that +10 weapon they have been drooling over.
Also think about this: CRs of encounters aren't based upon the party being at 75% hps. The game is sort of built around characters not being down hit points when an encounter starts - it's hard to see this as a problem, at least from the developers standpoint.
That is just smart adventuring. If they were around in the real world I am sure the military would have them, at least the special forces unit. I like your players. I wish I could trade you for some of the ones I have had in the past.
-----------------------------------------------------
PC:I don't care about traps.
moments later
PC:I am almost dead. Can someone heal me?
I'll echo others, and simply say it's more a problem of economics (think "supply and demand") than of gameplay. Up the toughness of the encounters just a little, or let them spend their gold on "Magic Healing Sticks".
Now, from a lore perspective, I've never liked people handing-off CLW wands to the party Cleric. I play a Cleric in PFS and it's annoying albeit practical. It's presumptuous to assume a Cleric of Torag would see one's wounds as worthy of His healing might. If you want me to come along, the group needs to learn to put their faith in the Forge Father, don't they?
If you want healing spells to be a bit more "divine" in nature, and less like using a screwdriver, then you might consider changing the world so that Divine Magic is only sold to members of that particular faith, and that there ARE NO wands or potions of Divine Magic.
"The divine healing of Sarenrae is only usable by a devout and trained member of her faith. Would you like to join our church? There's coffee and donuts...?"
EDIT: Oh, he's using the wand in combat? Nevermind. That is foolish; barring some great knowledge unseen to me.I missed that part too. I think using the wand in combat has it's place, but not as the go-to option.
I missed it also. In that case he is just being inefficient. Make him deal with his bad decisions.
We added a house rule that you could spend a full minute casting your Cure spells to maximize them for free. It's stretched resources much further, and gives the players another choice - do we spend time getting the biggest bang for healing, or are we under a time limit, or do we have buffs that are going to expire? Its worked well. I like them being at full health at the start of each combat. I'd want to be. Spells and consumables might be used, but hit points should always be maxed when possible.
I'm currently playing a lowish level cleric that was built to be good at other things then melee. There are many rounds that I can't contribute in a very meaningful way to combat (usually saving my better spells for more serious encounters). Bopping the barbarian with a clw wand wouldn't be a bad option in many instances.
We added a house rule that you could spend a full minute casting your Cure spells to maximize them for free. It's stretched resources much further, and gives the players another choice - do we spend time getting the biggest bang for healing, or are we under a time limit, or do we have buffs that are going to expire? Its worked well. I like them being at full health at the start of each combat. I'd want to be. Spells and consumables might be used, but hit points should always be maxed when possible.
Spells and Consumables regenerate. Hit Points don't after a certain point.
As an Adventurer, I'd enjoy being at my peak, because that's the most enjoyable part of being an adventurer. You think I'd enjoy being an Adventurer having that big gash across my chest or have that temporary AIDS disease that mummy gave me, the whole time I go out and adventure? Hell no.
It's also wise for a character to be at their tip-top shape whenever they can, because the opposition can rear its ugly head at any given moment. (AKA, the moment the DM wants to give the PC's something to fight.)
My DM uses automatic average rolls for cure wands, so as to speed things along.
We all appreciate it.
I decided to go with average (unconventionally rounded up) on wands and potions too. It saves lots of rolling.
At low levels it is really costly to keep the party up all the time with wands. At high levels its actually needed. Go ahead and look how much the average CR 12 monster does in one round of full attacks. A level 12 character can easily do 100 damage in a round. Its a game of rocket tag at that point and you NEED to stay at full before every encounter if you can help it.
At low levels it is really costly to keep the party up all the time with wands. At high levels its actually needed. Go ahead and look how much the average CR 12 monster does in one round of full attacks. A level 12 character can easily do 100 damage in a round. Its a game of rocket tag at that point and you NEED to stay at full before every encounter if you can help it.
Expressed more positively;
Don't worry that the players won't be challenged if they start every fight at full strength. Real challenges are baked into the game, and they will clobber a full strength character down to nothing just around the time they start to think they're invincible. As GM, you just need to have the courage to pull the trigger.
Curing wands can be good at low level. it sure beats players wanting to take 8 hrs rest every couple of encounters. Remember that hey are pretty fragile anyway so it's not a bad thing for them to start every encounter at full hp otherwise you'll have a high death count.
Also, they're likely to burn through other resources pretty quickly anyway- even the barbarian can't rage indefinitely.
that said, I try to keep a tight rein on how accessible magic items are. 1st and 2nd level characters in my games are more likely to have to rely on potions of clw. wands aren't likely to show up or be affordable until closer to 3rd and they may not be fully charged.
|
|
There's nothing wrong with curing to full hp between encounters by expending wand charges, spells etc. Hp damage is one way to affect a party. Feel free to try the following:
Hit them while they heal. Standing around being whacked with a happy stick takes time, time enough that reinforcements should barge in and start stabbing the PCs.
Hit them with ability damage. Ability damage is slow to heal and requires more resources to fix quickly. A fighter at 100 hp does just as much damage as a fighter on 10 hp. But a STR 10 fighter feels the difference compared to a STR 20 fighter.
Buff your enemies occasionally. Giving monsters Max hp isn't going to break anything and gives those monsters more time to drop the PCs sometimes.
Let it go: people play the game to feel kickass. Let them kick ass.
really? is the OP upset about PCs being at full health every fight?
750 GP per wand which has 50 uses before it burns out. later on, they will need like a dozen wands per encounter. even more if you have a large party.
wand of infernal healing (or lesser vigor w/ 3.5 edition stuff) is cheaper, but slower.
and when you consider how much time is spent healing between encounters, travel becomes a whole lot slower.
slower travel means you spend more time at the same level due to taking longer to adventure.
EDIT: Oh, he's using the wand in combat? Nevermind. That is foolish; barring some great knowledge unseen to me.I missed that part too. I think using the wand in combat has it's place, but not as the go-to option.
We all missed it, because it wasn't there.