How do Dwarves view Abadar and Irori?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

Liberty's Edge

After Torag, Abadar and Irori are the next most popular dwarven deities. But how do dwarves interpret those two deities? Everything I've seen about Abadar and Irori is from a very human-centric viewpoint.

To start us off, I think the dwarven interpretation of Abadar may have some similarities to his Tien interpretation as the god of walls and ditches. Maybe more tunnels than ditches?

Irori I'm having trouble wrapping my head around his dwarven interpretation. Perhaps as a master craftsman? I can't think of any instances where he's specific mentioned as a human before his ascension to godhood, but it's heavily suggested.

Shadow Lodge

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I would imagine that Abadar is almost a more Dwarven-centric deity than Torag, honestly. Abadar is all about society, the city, hard work, banking, organization, doing your part and finding what part you best contribute to the whole, and the better for the people about the individual, while Dwarves, by nature, are clanish, have a love for shineies (gold and gems), and very traditional. Irori on the other hand, would likely be a good example of what Dwarves would look to avoid in a lawful sense.

Self-Perfection to a Dwarf (general) means doing everything Irori stands against. Avoidng eating good food!!!!! Avoiding DRINKING good Dwarven ALE!!!!!!!!! Building up dwarven kind, not self first. Perfecting your body as a weapon, that's a great last ditch back-up plan, but infinitly better to to have good Dwarven steel in your hands and a true Dwarven badass wears mastercrafted "Dwarven" Full Plate. Dwarves are built to carry the world on their backs and not be slowed by it, not to drop everything else and pretend that the spoon doesn't exist.

:)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Well Irori also started off as human, and his religion is much much more recent than Abadar (who may be one of the older gods in the Inner Sea, even predating Dwarves or humans). So I am not sure Dwarves would really think of him at all.

Scarab Sages

Dwarves of Golarion mentions him as one of the most worshipped gods of 'dwarves in human lands'. Can't really see it myself either.


Fluff-wise, all of the race books made me raise an eyebrow on more than one occassion. They've got some good crunch in places and that's pretty much all I use them for.

I look at the fluff in these books as being somewhere between a Paizo and third-party product; useful at times, but taken with a grain of salt.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

huh...not what I would have guessed, but then I haven't read most of the X of Golarion books

Liberty's Edge

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I like that. I feel like the typical dwarf would look at a dwarven monk and think of him as impressive, but indulgent. It's impressive to spend years training your body to be has hard as steel and your fists to strike as hard as hammer blows, but you know what else is as hard as steel and strikes as hard as a hammer? Steel armor and a hammer! All that time spent in stances and meditation could have been spent forging dozens, if not hundreds of tools for your fellow dwarves!

Also, no good can come of a dwarf jumping that high. No good.


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I could see a more collective appreciation of Irori as opposed individuals in dwarven culture. Much like removing impurities creates greater steel, tempering out the weaknesses of their clans makes dwarves as a whole stronger.

Liberty's Edge

I feel like he could find a place in the dwarven worship set as the god of knowledge and runes, be he seems to be so young in comparison to even the youngest of the dwarven gods.


Maybe the tennets of Irori could be looked upon as the care and pefection of the beard.

Then the overall love and devotion by dwarves makes so much sense.

Greg

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think Irori would be with dwarves that don't want to do that whole clan thing. If you've been exiled, or your clan is dead, Irori is a god that lets you stand on your own two feet, stop worrying about others and worry about making yourself perfect.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Caius wrote:
I could see a more collective appreciation of Irori as opposed individuals in dwarven culture. Much like removing impurities creates greater steel, tempering out the weaknesses of their clans makes dwarves as a whole stronger.

I really like this approach to the whole concept, that to dwarves irori's teaching are what turns dwarves into dwarvish steel and that what he teaches is that one should find what their place in the world is and become the best they can be within that set niche. Dwarven cities with heavy followings would look at it as everyone has a place in the community that they are meant to fill, built to fill even, and are encouraged to find where that place is and become the best at it. Meanwhile I would think of monk dwarves as having a proverb like what was said above, that they train to remove impurities in their mind, body, and soul like a master smith works to remove impurities from the metal he creates so as to become the purest form of perfection a dwarf can attain physically, I could see squads of dwarven monks looked at with awe for how they have managed to help purge themselves of issues and hang ups that catch many others off guard (some even without their knowledge) and become something that is awe inspiring. To me I think the pitch for dwarven monks would be that the power of a monk is not something a dwarf must gain through outside sources but rather something locked inside them waiting to get out. I could see a sensei comparing a normal dwarf to a lump of iron still in the mine good but useless in it's current state and waiting to be bent, shaped, and cleaned to be brought to it greatest potential.

Liberty's Edge

This is some good material.

Dark Archive

As the only Inner Sea god tied to both history and the Rune domain, Irori might be a favorite of dwarven lore-keepers and arcanists, if going with the notion that dwarven wizards are all about the rune-magic (which was the assumption in the Scarred Lands setting, at least, which was, so far, the only one to really focus on the 3rd edition opening up of arcane magic to the dwarven race).

Strength, Law, Knowledge and Rune domains (and the history and knowledge areas of concern) all work well with various portrayals of dwarven stereotypes.

Healing isn't as common, but the female dwarven gods from Roger Moore's original 'demihuman dieties' and the later Realms additions, often had a healing focus, being seen as mending flesh and forging warriors the same way their husbands repaired metal and forged weapons.

Self-perfection is the odd man out, in some ways, but it's hardly Irori's only area of concern, and expecting every follower of Irori to be all hung up on self-perfection, ignoring his other areas of concern, would probably be as narrow a focus as expecting every follower of Besmara to be a big fan of sea monsters (when most of them, being pirates, probably don't really like them much...), or every follower of Cayden to be a drunkard.

Liberty's Edge

I like that. I see wizardry as something relatively new to the dwarves. In my own campaign, they see it as "surface magic", something used by elves and men who aren't happy with what the gods are willing to give them. Its power and usefulness has convinced several dwarves to start practicing wizardry, especially those who have regular contact with the surface. Irori could be their (somewhat-new) god of arcane magic (instead of Nethys, who is both confirmed human and insane).

That's a good call on healing - there's only one minor dwarven deity that has the Healing domain.

I just mentioned this in another thread, but there's a little rule about the dwarven pantheon hidden in the fluff of Gods and Magic. It states that a dwarven priest of Torag may spend an hour tuning himself to another god in the dwarven pantheon, gaining access to their domain spells for 24 hours. Kind of neat.

Dark Archive

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brreitz wrote:
I like that. I see wizardry as something relatively new to the dwarves. In my own campaign, they see it as "surface magic", something used by elves and men who aren't happy with what the gods are willing to give them. Its power and usefulness has convinced several dwarves to start practicing wizardry, especially those who have regular contact with the surface. Irori could be their (somewhat-new) god of arcane magic (instead of Nethys, who is both confirmed human and insane).

Growing up on tales of shapeshifting dwarven 'wizards' crafting stuff like Mjolnir (Thor's hammer) and Gungnir (Odin's spear), the idea of non-magical dwarves never sat right with me, Tolkien or no Tolkien.

So when 3rd edition came out, and dwarves could be wizards, I was all 'hell yeah!'

Indeed, given the flavor of the elves and dwarves, I would have gone farther than the 3E design team went, and had elves be natural sorcerers (and bards) with a bonus to Charisma, since that, IMO, far better suits them, for their magic to be innate and a part of their blood, while arcanists among the men and dwarves are more likely to be wizards (and rune-wizards), studying till their eyes bleed to ape the magics that come so naturally to the elves. (That, of course, would be from an elven perspective. A dwarven perspective would be that elves are stuck with whatever magic tricks they stumbled upon in their youth, a slave to their lack of understanding or work ethic, while a studious dwarf has *mastered* the arts arcane, and can eventually cast dozens of spells of each level, being infinitely more versatile than an elf and its tricks.)

Quote:
I just mentioned this in another thread, but there's a little rule about the dwarven pantheon hidden in the fluff of Gods and Magic. It states that a dwarven priest of Torag may spend an hour tuning himself to another god in the dwarven pantheon, gaining access to their domain spells for 24 hours. Kind of neat.

It's not 100% clear, but I *think* the intent was that the dwarf doing this would only have access to that one domain, for the 24 hours of attunement (losing access to both of his normal domains), making this something of a give and take option, and not a free bonus extra.

It's also not 100% clear, but it's possible that this option will go the way of clerics of the Godclaw, elven pantheists (a page or so away from dwarf option, IIRC), clerics of Shimmy-Magoo, clerics of Walkena, clerics of the child-goddess in Kaer Maga, Juju Oracles, etc., etc. if James Jacobs finds out about it.

So keep it on the down low. :)

Shadow Lodge

Im pretty sure it already did. I have a list somewhere.

Ive always seen Rune and Glyph magic as especially Divine which was true until the end of 3E. I dont like that in PF, Arcane has stolen that too. But the way I see it, thats probably why the Arcanists fail to understand places like Riddleport, but Mendev's wards work so well.

:)


I'm running Runelords at the moment, and I have a dwarven priest of Irori. His backstory is that he's one of the last of a hidden brotherhood of dwarves scholars, though they've forgotten why their order was founded. I'm gonna work that back to Thassilon and Karzoug, not that he knows it.

But if there's anything dwarves can do, it's focus like a demon when they want to perfect stuff. Pretty much everything dwarves focus on doing, they do awesomely. I don't think it's that much of a stretch to work Irori into their pantheon.

Plus, runes.

Dark Archive

Set wrote:
be as narrow a focus as expecting every ... follower of Cayden to be a drunkard.

Wait, they're not?

Liberty's Edge

Set wrote:


Growing up on tales of shapeshifting dwarven 'wizards' crafting stuff like Mjolnir (Thor's hammer) and Gungnir (Odin's spear), the idea of non-magical dwarves never sat right with me, Tolkien or no Tolkien.

I like my dwarves with magic, doubly-so with runes, but there's not a d20 system for rune magic that I've dug. For a while, I had a dwarf wizard in a party who used wordcasting to represent his runecasting, which worked ok, if not great.

Set wrote:


I would have gone farther than the 3E design team went, and had elves be natural sorcerers (and bards) with a bonus to Charisma.

I can't agree with this enough.

Set wrote:


So keep it on the down low. :)

I don't even remember what this thread was about. Bards, maybe?

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