| 6 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. |
I see so many people really gimping this ability.
I have seen a lot of people rule that instead of the (x2 strength)
They are ruling that your two handed damage is changed from 1.5xdmg for to 2.0xdmg.
How are you coming to this conclusion? It doesn't say it changed it to 2.0x for two handed. It says it doubles your strength when making an attack with a two handed weapon. Simple.. Easy..
Stop nerfing ability's that do not need to be nerfed.
You changing this ability is hurting the fighter do his job effectivly. He gives up alot for mostly that one ability and yet you are taking it away. Why!? for what what?
Fighters are not the most powerful class. Hell, they really gotta buckle down and do their homework to keep up int he later lvls. Let them have their glory for once.
What do you think? Why do you use the 2.0 instead of the strength?
There is a reason why it is like that. The makers are not idiots.. sure things slip through the cracks sometimes but this ability is not one of them.
I would love to hear your opinion on it. Regardless if we disagree or not.
thanks again.
I see so many people really gimping this ability.
I have seen a lot of people rule that instead of the (x2 strength)
They are ruling that your two handed damage is changed from 1.5xdmg for to 2.0xdmg.How are you coming to this conclusion? It doesn't say it changed it to 2.0x for two handed. It says it doubles your strength when making an attack with a two handed weapon. Simple.. Easy..
Stop nerfing ability's that do not need to be nerfed.
You changing this ability is hurting the fighter do his job effectivly. He gives up alot for mostly that one ability and yet you are taking it away. Why!? for what what?
Fighters are not the most powerful class. Hell, they really gotta buckle down and do their homework to keep up int he later lvls. Let them have their glory for once.
What do you think? Why do you use the 2.0 instead of the strength?
There is a reason why it is like that. The makers are not idiots.. sure things slip through that are idiotic sometimes but this ability is not one of them.
I would love to hear your opinion on it. Regardless if we disagree or not.
thanks again.
At 3rd level, when a two-handed fighter makes a single attack (with the attack action or a charge) with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls.
This needs clarification in terms of stacking. Many argue that since the bonus implemented with the attack is a Strength Bonus (and you already include your Strength Bonus to attacks), that you pick the higher bonus, not consolidate them as such a bonus does not stack with itself; you can't have a +4 Strength Belt and a +2 Strength Ioun Stone stack together, so why should the modifiers for the damage stack? It's not rule-bending or downplaying the class at all, it's how the rules for modifier stacking is implemented.
*Edit*
On a side note, I can tell this class feature will work very well with the Vital Strike feat...
I dont understand what you mean by stacking.
So if you have an 18str(+4)then also havea belt of strength(+2)
Your strength total is +5.. +5 is doubled to +10 using overhand chop
So you are now +10 strength.. then you add your 1-1/2 for two handed dmg.
+15dmg.
Its not that hard.
So.. simply double your strength bonus and add your 1-1/2 for two handed dmg. and that's it.
If it was the other way and you changed your two handed dmg from 1.5 to 2.0 it would really kinda blow and wouldn't be worth the loss of all your ability's.
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That actually sounds like a buff, unless you're multiplying the dice for normal attacks (which is incorrect anyway - it's always your Strength bonus that's multiplied).
Let's assume the following:
- That you have 18 strength (+4)
- That you are Power-Attacking and your Power Attack is -1/+2.
- That your weapon of choice is a Greatsword
Without overhand chop -
2d6 + (4 * 1.5) + (2 * 1.5) = 2d6 + 9
With Overhand Chop (adding to Strength only):
2d6 + (4 * 2) + (2 * 1.5) = 2d6 + 11
Now, if you multiplied both the overhand chop and power attack (which would be nice, but is unfortunately incorrect):
2d6 + (4 * 2) + (2 * 2) = 2d6 + 12
We use 2x instead of 1.5x because that seems to be the designer's intent.
And, with this ability and the vital strike chain, with power attack and furious focus, our party's fighter is pretty much one-shotting anything we can send against him.
I guess I'm not clear on what you are proposing as the "right" way to use this ability. Are you suggesting that a fighter should be dealing 3x strength with a two-handed weapon? Are you suggesting that he double his actual strength score, then use the modifier? (Note: this would make the party's fighter have a strength of close to 70, for a modifier of +30 before multiplying.) Are you suggesting that the fighter uses both 1.5x and 2x his strength modifier (effectively 3.5x his normal strength modifier)?
How are you using this ability?
I see it this way.
Assuming +4 strength
Without power attack"
+8STR
+4 Two handed 1-1/2
= 2D6 +12 DMG Without power Attack.
With Power Attack.
Same as Above
+12str +3PA = 2D6 +15 with Power Attack
I simply use it how it is read.
It is a single powerful attack.
Can you abuse it? sure.. but you can abuse alot of things that are way worse than this ability
EDIT: So i am assuming if you do it my way.. dmg is increased by 25%?
And what kinda crazy str scores are you talking about? what lvl is he? lol
Yet another way to misinterpret the ability is that you add 2x Str bonus to your existing damage. So you get 3.5x Str bonus.
However if you think the designers meant it any other way than 2x Str bonus instead of 1.5x Str bonus you are bonkers.
You're probably the only person ever who understood that ability in that way.
How hard would it have been to say "you get 2.0xdmg instead of the normal 1.5 when using a single attack using a two handed weapon"
If their intention was to change the dmg on Two handed weapons from the normal 1.5 to a 2.0 they would have said it.
I still stubbornly think my way is fine until someone proves me wrong.
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It is intended to replace the 1.5x damage bonus with a 2.0x damage bonus.
At lower levels, where a fighter likely only has a +3 or +4 strength bonus, this increases the bonus damage by about +2 (+4->+6, +6->+8). This difference only increases as the fighter gains levels, and the Greater Power Attack ability further increases it.
Dealing 3x or 3.5x Strength Mod. damage is too much to be correct. I won't argue the point, because I'm fully expecting a "will only accept dev. response" post, at which point either it will be FAQ'd and answered with my above answer, or a dev. will respond with that same answer.
Admittedly, I can see both worlds of thought for either one. I personally believe the intention was to have you add 2x instead of 1.5. I think if the text read:
At 3rd level, when a two-handed fighter makes a single attack (with the attack action or a charge) with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls instead of 1-1/2 times his strength.
it would be much more clear. Or, for the other school of thought:
At 3rd level, when a two-handed fighter makes a single attack (with the attack action or a charge) with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls. This is done before applying 1-1/2 times his Strength for wielding a sword two-handedly.
I have no issue with the second one. Especially since most martial classes try to go for a full-attack anyways, this will be a good add in for when you can't full attack. Probably goes well with Vital Strike. But I still think a full attack will be better either way.
I guess I stumbled onto one of those discussions where everyone has their own opinion and no amount of discussion will really solve it unless an actual DEV makes a comment.
And Yes the way I have it you would be dealing 3.5xsStr on a single attack because that is the way it was written.
Having it only give you .5 percent more seems really weak and not worth the investment in the archtype.
EDIT: Now that I think about it I kinda think they should have made the ability give you 2.5x for Two Handed Strikes.. then i think everyone would be happy.
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Ok, what he means is this. Say you have the following:I dont understand what you mean by stacking.
So if you have an 18str(+4)then also havea belt of strength(+2)
Your strength total is +5.. +5 is doubled to +10 using overhand chop
- A Strength Score of 18 (+4)
- A Belt Of Strength, granting you a +4 Enhancement bonus to Strength
- An Ioun Stone of Strength (+2), granting you a +2 Enhancement bonus to Strength
Your final Strength score would be 22, not 24, as bonuses of the same type do not stack with one another (however, if you were enlarged and received a +2 Size bonus to Strength, your strength would become 24). For references, see PRD - Basics and D20PFSRD - Common Terms - Bonus
Similarly - your normal two-handed damage bonus is a Strength bonus of 1.5 times your Strength. With Overhand Chop you gain a Strength bonus of double your strength.
That particular ability could certainly benefit from a sentence or two to clarify this though.
Honestly, you're expecting a bit much from 3rd level ability that replaces Armor Training 1
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And Yes the way I have it you would be dealing 3.5xsStr on a single attack because that is the way it was written.
Having it only give you .5 percent more seems really weak and not worth the investment in the archtype.
What is written is that the fighter "adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls". Since similar bonuses don't stack and require you take the highest bonus, and since the fighter already adds 1.5x his Strength modifier to the original damage rolls with his weapon, then he now adds 2x this bonus instead.
And to counter the last statement, yes it is. Our group's 17th level THFighter was winning combats pretty much alone, just by full-attacking, sundering and Vital Striking like a mad man with his earthbreaker.
While I do believe the intent is to us 2x instead of 1.5x, there is no text to indicate if they meant "instead of" or "in addition to".
The ability is only replacing armor training 1. I think if the ability was meant to do 3.5x strength mod in damage it would come at a higher level than it does.
edit: As written it is a bonus, and bonuses don't stack. So if you are already getting 1.5 bonus naturally the 2x bonus would just take its place. Doing 3.5 str mod damage would happen all the time at level 7 also, except for the first attack, and I am sure that was not the intent.
Backswing (Ex): At 7th level, when a two-handed fighter makes a full attack with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls for all attacks after the first. This ability replaces armor training 2.
You loose all your armor training and your weapon training. :) Regardless
Davor .5 is 50% man.
In regards to stacking.. If it adds to your strength and everything can be used legally without cheating then you double it.
If you have an 18(+4) with a Belt of str (+4) and your large (+2)
you have a +7 total.
This : 7x2 for OC = 14 + 1-1/2 for TH = 21 DMG
VS
7x2 for TH = 14
21 (the way it is written) VS 14 (what some people assume)
big difference I give you.. but still.
I just use the rule how it reads until they change it or a dev answers.
If so many people feel strongly about the alternative way I very may well be wrong and im fine with that. I just wish they typed what they meant.
Uh, math interlude...
.5 DOES indeed equal 50 percent.
However, .5 percent is a big difference. In decimal form, that's, like, .005. That's something like 100 times weaker.
[/math]
Now that we have been bouncing it around. I think I'm just going to house rule a straight 2.5 replacing the normal 1.5 for two handed.
.5 doesn't seem a powerful enough to me for all that you give up.
2.0 to weak
3.5 to strong
2.5 just right.
I will bounce around the topic from time to time and see if a dev can clear up the ruling.
thanks for the discussion guys I really do appreciate your thoughts.
You loose all your armor training and your weapon training. :)
The two-handed fighter keeps weapon training, it just only applies to two-handed melee weapons.
Correct, I had meant you look your weapon training for non two handed weapons.
Thanks Talynonyx for the correction.
You loose all your armor training and your weapon training. :) Regardless
Davor .5 is 50% man.
My point was that as you level up you get stronger abilities, and my other point was that allowing that much extra damage for armor training which is "ok" seems out of line. I think they would have made it an untyped bonus instead of they wanted it to stack. As an example they could have said "You gain a bonus equal to 2 times your strength modifier..." That way it is mathematically 3.5, and it is clear that the bonus does not overlap, but does stack.
I agree with ya Wraithstrike. I understand where you are coming from.
Especially when it comes to having a low lvl ability being so powerful.
The fact is the ability was not well written. We are left to do whatever we think is right with it at this point until an errata comes out or dev makes a solid comment on the issue.
It's just one of those things.
I paid a crap load of money for these books and yet I still have to work out stupid little things like this.
lol.
Hopefully we can get a dev comment on the issue and clear this up before the players get to epic.
I FAQ'd it.
By RAW it does not stack, but I can understand you wanting it to work differently. I have never seen a fighter have a problem doing damage however, and I am sure the class can outdamage the core fighter with a 2 handed weapon, and of course it should. Does the extra damage make up for the lost armor training? I don't know, but I do know that not all trade outs are equal for many archetypes. The bard as an example gets weaker in most people's opinions with many of its archetypes.
A lot of archtypes are not equal I agree. However I cant really say how much of a hindrance Two Handed Fighter archtypes No armor training will play in the future.
Lets face it.. 90+ percent of all Archtypes suck and are worthless to a party of people that want to be winners.
If you want to be that quirky character with strange abilities then go for it but in my campaigns people tend to want to be as strong as they can be.
I think most of this comes from having players that are very knowledgeable on the rules and can min/max the s%*! out of any character you put them in. I am not talking ridiculous rule bending min/max but just optimized builds. They know what they want to do and do it.
when you have players like that a lot of the martial class's fall towards the wayside simply because they don't have as much potential.
I make it fun for everyone but I would hate to see my fighter player get discouraged or feel like he is the weakest of the party.
Thanks for FAQ Odraude.
EDIT: you think this ability is bad.. Don't get me started on the carnage a summoner can do.
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90+% of archetypes are bad? You're gonna have to prove that one. It's true that there are some useless ones, and some classes have it worse than others (/cough CLERIC /cough), but there are some great archetypes out there. Fighter probably has some of the best, followed by Cavalier, Ranger, Druid.... there are some GREAT archetypes.
No one ever brings up the next ability:
Backswing (Ex): At 7th level, when a two-handed
f ighter makes a full attack with a two-handed weapon,
he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls for
all attacks after the first. This ability replaces armor
training 2.
It uses the same wording as Overhand chop. So you are fine giving this guy 3.5 str on 3 attacks (w/ BAB +16). My vote is 2x NOT added to the 1.5x. But I FAQed as well.
No one ever brings up the next ability:
Backswing (Ex): At 7th level, when a two-handed
f ighter makes a full attack with a two-handed weapon,
he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls for
all attacks after the first. This ability replaces armor
training 2.It uses the same wording as Overhand chop. So you are fine giving this guy 3.5 str on 3 attacks (w/ BAB +16). My vote is 2x NOT added to the 1.5x. But I FAQed as well.
I brought it up earlier. :)
I brought it up earlier. :)No one ever brings up the next ability:
Backswing (Ex): At 7th level, when a two-handed
f ighter makes a full attack with a two-handed weapon,
he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls for
all attacks after the first. This ability replaces armor
training 2.It uses the same wording as Overhand chop. So you are fine giving this guy 3.5 str on 3 attacks (w/ BAB +16). My vote is 2x NOT added to the 1.5x. But I FAQed as well.
missed that :), but after another threat (MaNYsHot & fuLL AtTack) I just cannot seem to read all them. :)
*It's 50%, not .5%, which is actually pretty substantial.
It's actually only a 33% increase.
(2-1.5)/1.5 = .333...
But it is still pretty substantial.
This is the way I understand the ability.
Let's assume the following:
- That you have 18 strength (+4)
- That you are Power-Attacking and your Power Attack is -1/+2.
- That your weapon of choice is a Greatsword
Without overhand chop -
2d6 + (4 * 1.5) + (2 * 1.5) = 2d6 + 9With Overhand Chop (adding to Strength only):
2d6 + (4 * 2) + (2 * 1.5) = 2d6 + 11
Since the power attack bonus is str bonus to damage, would that be x2 vs x1.5 also?
Since the power attack bonus is str bonus to damage, would that be x2 vs x1.5 also?
Power Attack isn't affected by Overhand Chop.
Since the power attack bonus is str bonus to damage, would that be x2 vs x1.5 also?
No. Power Attack is just an unlisted type of bonus damage. It has clauses within it that scale the bonus damage it gives to that of using 2h weapons and off-hand weapons just the same as a Strength Bonus with a weapon, but it's something separate.
Since this question of Overhand Chop has been brought up, please check my stats.
This character is a 6th-level Two-Handed Fighter with a 17 Strength.
Do these two attack routines look right?
Greatsword w/Overhand Chop & Vital Strike
+11 attack; ((2d6+9)/19-20x2 +2d6); 8#; slashing
(+3 Str x2) +2 Weapon Specialization +1 Weapon Training
Greatsword w/Power Attack, Overhand Chop, & Vital Strike
+9 attack; (2d6+15)/19-20x2 +2d6; 8#; slashing
(+3 Str x2) +2 Weapon Specialization +1 Weapon Training +6 Power Attack
Ya, I'm sure that the "double strength bonus" is in place of the normal strength bonus.
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He adds double his STR bonus.
Instead of 1.5 x his STR bonus (which is the normal benefit).
He doesn't add double TIMES 1.5 TIMES STR bonus.
It's either/or.
You only get Overhand Chop when you make a single attack, using an attack action or a charge. If you make more than a single attack, you don't get it. You don't get it when making multiple attacks, and you also don't get it on AoOs.
You only get Backswing when you make multiple attacks with the full attack action, on attacks after your first. If you don't make multiple attacks, you don't get it, because it doesn't apply to the first attack you make. This normally means you're only getting a better damage bonus (again, x2 STR instead of x1.5 STR, not (x2) x (x1.5) x STR), on your iterative attacks, which are less likely to hit anyway.
I can provide you only RAI and my best efforts at a plain English expression of in the RAW. I looked back at my original turnover text, and it was not changed in editing so they have conveyed the rules text to you as I wrote it.
I am not the official FAQ-giver, though I did write the fighter section of the APG, so I can give you my unofficial interpretation. If your question is for PFS or some other RAW scenario, you'll need to wait for an official answer if you feel the rules are unclear.
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*It's 50%, not .5%, which is actually pretty substantial.It's actually only a 33% increase.
(2-1.5)/1.5 = .333...
But it is still pretty substantial.
I was referring to the increase in the damage based on your original strength modifier (an extra 50% of the original), not overall increase in damage... I think.
Since this question of Overhand Chop has been brought up, please check my stats.
This character is a 6th-level Two-Handed Fighter with a 17 Strength.
Do these two attack routines look right?
Greatsword w/Overhand Chop & Vital Strike
+11 attack; ((2d6+9)/19-20x2 +2d6); 8#; slashing
(+3 Str x2) +2 Weapon Specialization +1 Weapon TrainingGreatsword w/Power Attack, Overhand Chop, & Vital Strike
+9 attack; (2d6+15)/19-20x2 +2d6; 8#; slashing
(+3 Str x2) +2 Weapon Specialization +1 Weapon Training +6 Power Attack
You have an extra +1 to attack in there. 6(BAB)+3(Str)+1(WT)= +10. If you have a masterwork weapon, or Weapon Focus, or something like that, then it looks correct to me.
For comparison, a full-attack would be +11/+6 (2d6+7) so you're gaining 5 damage in exchange for using a full-round action and only when both attacks hit.
Level 7 attack routines for comparison (also assuming masterwork or WF):
Full-attack greatsword w/Backswing: +12 (2d6+7) +7 (2d6+9)
Attack-action greatsword w/Overhand Chop & Vital Strike: +12 (4d6+9)
Now the full-attack gives you 7 more damage, but again, at the cost of a move action and a possible miss.