Limp Lash Question


Rules Questions

Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

If I have the whip like energy attached to someone and they move more than 20 feet away from me, what happens?

Can I have the spell release the creature but still have the whip in hand?
Is the whip forced out of my hand?
Does the spell end?

The spell.


Spall pasted below for ease.

In most cases, the creature will be paralyzed, and cannpt move by itself. If somehow moved by someome else, beyond the range, my interpretation is that the spelll ends.

School necromancy; Level sorcerer/wizard 2, witch 2

CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a dead wasp)

EFFECT
Range 20 ft.
Target 1 creature
Duration special (see below)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes

DESCRIPTION
You create a dark whip-shaped field of energy that wraps around an enemy’s neck, leaving everything except his head paralyzed until you let go of the whip or it is destroyed. You must make a ranged touch attack with this spell. If you strike your target, he takes a 1d6 penalty to his Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution each round. This penalty cannot reduce any attribute to less than 1, and once any of these attributes reaches 1 the target collapses and his body, except his head, becomes paralyzed. While paralyzed in this way, the target retains full use of his senses, including the ability to feel pain, and can speak (including casting spells with only verbal components). The whip has a maximum length of 20 feet, 15 hit points, and a hardness of 5. The spell ends immediately if you let go of the whip or it is destroyed. When the spell ends, all penalties the target took from this spell also end.

Section 15: Copyright Notice - Pathfinder Player Companion: Goblins of Golarion
Pathfinder Player Companion: Goblins of Golarion. © 2011, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Author: James Jacobs, Hal Maclean, and Richard Pett.


Tandriniel wrote:

Spall pasted below for ease.

In most cases, the creature will be paralyzed, and cannpt move by itself. If somehow moved by someome else, beyond the range, my interpretation is that the spelll ends.

School necromancy; Level sorcerer/wizard 2, witch 2

CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a dead wasp)

EFFECT
Range 20 ft.
Target 1 creature
Duration special (see below)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes

DESCRIPTION
You create a dark whip-shaped field of energy that wraps around an enemy’s neck, leaving everything except his head paralyzed until you let go of the whip or it is destroyed. You must make a ranged touch attack with this spell. If you strike your target, he takes a 1d6 penalty to his Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution each round. This penalty cannot reduce any attribute to less than 1, and once any of these attributes reaches 1 the target collapses and his body, except his head, becomes paralyzed. While paralyzed in this way, the target retains full use of his senses, including the ability to feel pain, and can speak (including casting spells with only verbal components). The whip has a maximum length of 20 feet, 15 hit points, and a hardness of 5. The spell ends immediately if you let go of the whip or it is destroyed. When the spell ends, all penalties the target took from this spell also end.

Section 15: Copyright Notice - Pathfinder Player Companion: Goblins of Golarion
Pathfinder Player Companion: Goblins of Golarion. © 2011, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Author: James Jacobs, Hal Maclean, and Richard Pett.

It is my opinion that the writer worded this spell really badly. Drop the bolded section entirely and the wording both makes sense (ie not paralyzing the subject twice - once initially and once again after ability damage), and the spell isn't utterly broken (20 ft range hold monster with no saving throw or duration limit. Yes, that's a 2nd level spell...).

Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

To clarify the spell, the target isn't paralyzed until one of the ability scores is dropped to 1 by the penalties. That means that the subject can still move and attack for a couple rounds while being targeted. Remove the first sentence completely and most of the confusion is gone.

But my question still stands. What happens when the target moves more than 20 feet from the caster while they are being targeted?


The way it's written, and given that it has hardness and hit points, make it seem like it should be a physical barrier to the target moving more than 20 feet away.

It doesn't give the grappled condition, so the only way to escape it would be killing the caster, or damaging the whip.

Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

So you are saying the target shouldn't be able to move further than 20 feet from the caster while the effect of this spell? As much as I like that, I am not sure that would be balanced.

What about allowing someone to make a CMB check to move? That seems balanced.

That doesn't really answer the question though. If someone moves out of that 20 foot range while under the effects, is the caster forced to let go, can the caster have the lash release the target to keep the spell going, or is the lash destroyed?

Grand Lodge

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pad300 wrote:
Tandriniel wrote:

Spall pasted below for ease.

In most cases, the creature will be paralyzed, and cannpt move by itself. If somehow moved by someome else, beyond the range, my interpretation is that the spelll ends.

School necromancy; Level sorcerer/wizard 2, witch 2

CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a dead wasp)

EFFECT
Range 20 ft.
Target 1 creature
Duration special (see below)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes

DESCRIPTION
You create a dark whip-shaped field of energy that wraps around an enemy’s neck, leaving everything except his head paralyzed until you let go of the whip or it is destroyed. You must make a ranged touch attack with this spell. If you strike your target, he takes a 1d6 penalty to his Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution each round. This penalty cannot reduce any attribute to less than 1, and once any of these attributes reaches 1 the target collapses and his body, except his head, becomes paralyzed. While paralyzed in this way, the target retains full use of his senses, including the ability to feel pain, and can speak (including casting spells with only verbal components). The whip has a maximum length of 20 feet, 15 hit points, and a hardness of 5. The spell ends immediately if you let go of the whip or it is destroyed. When the spell ends, all penalties the target took from this spell also end.

Section 15: Copyright Notice - Pathfinder Player Companion: Goblins of Golarion
Pathfinder Player Companion: Goblins of Golarion. © 2011, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Author: James Jacobs, Hal Maclean, and Richard Pett.

It is my opinion that the writer worded this spell really badly. Drop the bolded section entirely and the wording both makes sense (ie not paralyzing the subject twice - once initially and once again after ability damage), and the spell isn't utterly broken (20 ft range hold monster with no saving throw or duration limit. Yes, that's a 2nd level spell...).

Hold monster has a will save and a duration....it works just like hold person except works on any type of creature.....

HOLD MONSTER
School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; Level bard 4, sorcerer/wizard 5
Components: V, S, M/DF (one hard metal bar or rod, which can be as small as a three-penny nail)
Target one living creature
This spell functions like hold person, except that it affects any living creature that fails its Will save.

Here is hold person

HOLD PERSON
School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; Level bard 2, cleric 2, sorcerer/wizard 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F/DF (a small, straight piece of iron)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one humanoid creature
Duration 1 round/level (D); see text
Saving Throw Will negates; see text; Spell Resistance yes
The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A winged creature who is paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can't swim and may drown.

Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

Except that it takes 3 to 4 rounds to paralyze the target, gives penalties to ability scores, and is easier to avoid. Outside of that, it is like Hold Monster without a save.

Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

Okay, my interpretation is below. Someone please let me know if it sounds passable.

It calls out only two ways to end the spell, dropping the lash and breaking the lash. This seems to suggest that the target can't just move away to end the spell, to do that they have to sunder, disarm, stun the caster, or some similar action. Moving away from the caster should at least require some kind of check, like a CMB check. Moving with a successful check moves the caster as well, who could choose to release the lash if he would be moved into a hazard.

Does that sound balanced?


Erhm, I read it initially as it starts by paralyzing, but it is somewhat easy to counter, as long as there is an ally of the victim: move the subject, or damage the whip.

Reading the above I agree that it would make sense having it NOT being a paralyzing spell from the beginning. Instead, it is cast on the BBEG in order to make him waste actions attacking thhe whip, move around getting AOO, or continue to fight, but with penalties. If he has bad spellcraft, he might even continue to fight the main tank.

I think it works as written, having a great effect if used together with melees.


And if someone could possibly smack a ray of enfeeblement on the BBEG, then I think we are good to go :-)

Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

Tandriniel wrote:
And if someone could possibly smack a ray of enfeeblement on the BBEG, then I think we are good to go :-)

Imagine an Empowered Maximized Limp Lash. A -9 penalty to all three physical ability scores each round!

I actually opened a combat with a ray of enfeeblement and exhausted a BBEG, then used limp lash on him while the party attacked. The fight didn't last long.

To be honest, this spell should probably be a 3rd level spell. Just look at it.
- No save.
- Affects THREE ability scores.
- Can paralyze the target.
- The duration is "Until destroyed or let go."
- Can be cast well before combat and held onto until needed.
- You can cast more spells while using this one.

Of course it does have some big drawbacks.
- It takes three to four rounds to paralyze most targets.
- The lash isn't that hard to sunder.
- Spellcasters typically have really low CMD.
- The range is 20 feet, and can put the caster in danger.
- The spell ends if the caster is stunned, disarmed, or forced to let go.


CalebTGordan wrote:
Tandriniel wrote:
And if someone could possibly smack a ray of enfeeblement on the BBEG, then I think we are good to go :-)
Imagine an Empowered Maximized Limp Lash. A -9 penalty to all three physical ability scores each round!

Actually it would be a 1d3+6 penalty.

Liberty's Edge

2 level spell, relatively easy to get it quickened. If you use a quickening rod you can cast 2 of them in a round and while the spell is the same the source is a different casting of the spell, so there is a good argument about the effect staking.

If your GM rule that they aren't stacking, use a ray of enfeeblement.

Spell discarded as it is too powerful for its level.

Previous discussion about Limp lash

Most dragon have dex 10. 2 round of a maximized lash. 3 of a normal one.

Equip the whole party, with the exception of the DPS guy, with high level wands of wimp lash. The dragon will have to use all of his attacks simply to sunder the whips, leaving the DPS guy free to kill him (with the added benefit that he would have reduced hp most of the time).

A creature with a single powerful attack? It will keep it busy chewing the whip the whole time.

Awful spell.

Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

Ahhh. I blame my bad search skills for not finding that discussion. Thanks!

Liberty's Edge

As you can easily see I was in it. A I disliked the spell even then ;-)

It can be fun when used once in a encounter, it become terrible when in the hands of the players for a campaign.
Think what Ravindork could do with it. [shudder]

Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

I can tell my GM isn't really enjoying it either. I am considering offering him a few suggestions on how to alter it so that it is a bit more acceptable.

- Change it to a 3rd level spell
- Have it affect only Strength and Dex, not Con.
- Or, have it affect one physical score of the casters choice.
- Make it clear in the wording that the target can move past the 20 foot mark, and that doing so will end the accumulation of penalty but not suppress what has already been taken.
- Allow sundering past that 20 foot mark.
- Have the spell end if the target moves past the Medium spell range.
- Change the 1d6 to a straight -4. This removes the possibility of adding maximize and empowered to the spell.

While I wouldn't make all of these changes, any one of them would certainly make the spell more acceptable and balanced.

Liberty's Edge

By the way: to sunder something you must be capable to attack the weapon wielder, not the weapon. So you can cast the spell, give the target a penalty of 1d6 in Str, Dex and Con and then move/fly away.
The penalty will last as long as you devote a hand to wielding the whip.

Enjoy the thought.


Honestly, them not being able to move more than 20' away isn't a hindrance. You the caster being bound within 20' of this thing that you 'might' incapacitate with some lucky dice rolls is a downside.

It doesn't prevent the target from attacking you, or dispelling the lash, or attacking the lash, until you manage to reduce a stat to 1.

I'd say remove the Con penalty, if your DM's dislike is that it reduces HPs of people without them getting a save, or make it concentration duration.

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