[Fire Mountain Games] Throne of Night


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Libertad wrote:
Thank you for the information. Are you one of the backers? If not, do you have any links of backer discussion, KickStarter or otherwise, confirming this?

I'm a backer. Have books 1 and 2 and all 7 for WotW.

Grand Lodge

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Just a couple of updates for those that haven't been following the KS comments:
1) Another delayed Kickstarter has sued the people behind it, and won. As such, a few people have since reported Throne of Night to the Attorney Generals. Don't know what's going to happen at this point regarding that.
2) I've made contact with the artist, Michael Clarke. He's said that things are coming along. He's done all of the art work that Gary's assigned, and continuing on more that's still getting brought to him. This including the hex maps for the books, and the giant one that's getting sent out to those of us in that tier bracket. He's not sure what's all done on Gary's side regarding book completion, but it seems that Gary's writing all of the books at the same time. Possibly for continuity purposes. Makes sense. Doing two stories at once, it's easy to get confused who's doing what and when.

In the meantime, I was telling my current GM about this project, and what's been going on, and he introduced me to a few books that might help. He used all of them for a campaign that he did before I joined the group. These books, as well as the two Wizards of the Coast came out with, that everyone already knows.
They are:
Sheoloth, City of the Drow
The Drow War books 1-3 (3.5 AP from level 1 to 30)
Plot & Poison: A Guidebook to Drow
The Tome of Drow Lore

For those of you who are not waiting, or can't wait, hopefully these references can be of service.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Frankly as long as we are getting evidence that work is still progressing (Which I would count what Kevin_video reported as) then I think reporting him to the attorney general is premature and counter productive.


Kevin Mack wrote:
Frankly as long as we are getting evidence that work is still progressing (Which I would count what Kevin_video reported as) then I think reporting him to the attorney general is premature and counter productive.

I have not contacted my state's Attorney General about this yet, but I must respectfully disagree with your assertion that this thread counts as "evidence". Will all due respect to kevin_video, I want to hear from the project owner, *directly*, via the Kickstarter notification system, with either a firm timeline for releases or an apology and an offer of a refund. At this point, nothing else would prevent me from making that phone call to the AG.


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I did not back this project, but as someone who HAS backed a number of other KS projects for PFRPG, I do agree that an official notification through Kickstarter would be a good move.

Grand Lodge

Unimportant wrote:
Kevin Mack wrote:
Frankly as long as we are getting evidence that work is still progressing (Which I would count what Kevin_video reported as) then I think reporting him to the attorney general is premature and counter productive.
I have not contacted my state's Attorney General about this yet, but I must respectfully disagree with your assertion that this thread counts as "evidence". Will all due respect to kevin_video, I want to hear from the project owner, *directly*, via the Kickstarter notification system, with either a firm timeline for releases or an apology and an offer of a refund. At this point, nothing else would prevent me from making that phone call to the AG.

I agree that I want to hear this from Gary as well. Unfortunately, he rarely speaks. If anything, it's 99.9% Michael doing it. He is pushing Gary to make another update, especially given the comments on KS regarding AG's getting involved, so hopefully soon we'll get something. A timeline would be nice, but I doubt we'll get something that concrete.

Grand Lodge

Our main PFS GM just picked up the paper copy of Heroes In The Streets, and is enjoying the new rogue archetype for Unchained. He was passing it around, and of course the first thing I'm interested in is the magic items. Because, why not? Saw the cloak of daggers. That is a pretty nifty item. Knivy Ivy needs that in her life.
Also, check out the 3.5 Magic Item Compendium. There's a few in there to help both versions of the party. I especially like the spider fang, which cuts through webbing as a move action.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

I know someone mentioned it in the Kickstarter comments, but it is worth repeating here:
WotC's (5e) Rage of Demons: Out of the Abyss, is filled with underdark goodies: fantastic encounter tables and locations, great NPCs, etc that can easily be mined for use in Throne of Night (or any underdark setting).

Grand Lodge

Sitting in bed, bored and sick, I thought I'd do a Google search of Gary and his projects. Other than the multitude of angry, upset, and frustrated posts, I came across a few closed threads. Unfortunately, they were all about this particular AP. Some groups started last February and March, very hopeful that with Book 2 coming out in April that they'd be able to keep ahead of the series. We all know how that turned out. It's unfortunate to see so many groups having moved on. Even some KS contributors have written this off, with a couple having even forgotten about the project entirely. This has the potential of doing so well. Too bad so many will never see the end. That said, I know a few groups that had the same problem with Way of the Wicked when Book 5 and 6 came out late due to Gary's computer frying, and him losing everything due to not regularly backing the files up.

Just some observations I wanted to point out. Nothing more. The sick man is mumbling out loud.

Grand Lodge

So I recently had a look at Drow of Porphyra, and it seems like it'd be a good fit for anyone doing the drow side of the game. There's a vermin domain with a spider subdomain, another variant drow with spider-like traits and alternate traits, poison feats, poison harvesting rules, noble houses with one in particular that's devoted to a spider demon lord that's never been overthrown before (until the PCs' mother is assassinated, I'm sure), faction (house) traits, and new favored class options.


Regarding Plot & Poison... this book was for 3.0, but there is an updated version for 3.5 under the title "Advanced Races: Drow" available from Green Ronin (PDF only as far as I know).

Grand Lodge

Urath DM wrote:
Regarding Plot & Poison... this book was for 3.0, but there is an updated version for 3.5 under the title "Advanced Races: Drow" available from Green Ronin (PDF only as far as I know).

Did you mean "Advanced Race Codex: Drow"?


My major concern on this kickstarter is not "will the books ever be finished?" because I have faith that they will.

My concern is "Will the books reach me when they are shipped?" I have moved since backing this Kickstarter. My address will never change, but I sincerely hope that Gary has the forethought to send out a new survey or SOMETHING to ask for updated addresses. The survey is closed, so cannot update it through KS.


kevin_video wrote:
Urath DM wrote:
Regarding Plot & Poison... this book was for 3.0, but there is an updated version for 3.5 under the title "Advanced Races: Drow" available from Green Ronin (PDF only as far as I know).
Did you mean "Advanced Race Codex: Drow"?

Yeah, that's what I get for going from memory.

Bits and pieces have been used in Paizo's products.. the Dominant and Submissive PrCs show up in Rise of the Runelords (used with modifications, but not re-printed) while one (maybe two?) of the weapons showed up in Second Darkness.

Grand Lodge

Speaking of Green Ronin, I learned that they had an Assassins Handbook back during the 3.0 days. I've managed to quick peak, and it's not bad, but it could definitely use some updating. The spells are easy enough to make Pathfinder, but I also thought giving it 9d6 sneak attack to fill in all the blanks, uncanny and improved uncanny dodge at the same levels as a rogue, and changing the bonus feats to assassin talents (ninja and rogue talents) would give it a better edge. Someone might even play it if that happened.

Other than that, I only just learned that Paizo has a Tombs of Golarion book. And funny enough, there's a dwarven tomb in there called Everforge. Introduces some duergar, and even has three potential adventure hooks if you really want to give the players something to consider. Heck, one of them even gives the drow a reason to get in there. Looks to average around CR 12-13. Probably a little deadly for a party that just finished Book 2. Not much better than that AD&D one I found. It could be played with of course, but if you want to challenge your players, or they're powerful enough to take on such encounters already, do it up.


Soooo... basically... you want them to update the Assassin and turn it into the already-existing ninja class?


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I like GR's book and have used it in my old campaigns.
However, for PFRPG, there is quite frankly a better version:

Purple Duck Games' Assassins of Porphyra (Linked to my HP's review of it.)

Best assassin-class out there. ^^


Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
Libertad wrote:
Thank you for the information. Are you one of the backers? If not, do you have any links of backer discussion, KickStarter or otherwise, confirming this?
I'm a backer. Have books 1 and 2 and all 7 for WotW.

You mean actual printed physical copies? Hmm...

Grand Lodge

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Rednal wrote:
Soooo... basically... you want them to update the Assassin and turn it into the already-existing ninja class?

The ninja class doesn't have arcane spells. The best they've got is a ki pool that mimics SLA. Overall, I'm not a fan of the fact that the assassin PrC lost them, and now you have to be part of the Red Mantis to get them. Also, this assassin class has an ability called "Killing Blow". As long as you catch your opponent flat-footed, you have a chance to kill them unless they make a Fort DC 10+damage dealt. And you get it at 2nd level. Granted it's X/day, and you have to take feats to bump it up beyond what you get over the 20 levels, but you in Pathfinder certain races could bump that up 1/6 per level as a favoured bonus.

Granted, there are 3PP feats that almost mimic killing blow, but there's a lot of prereqs to get first, and hoops you need to jump through.

Endzeitgeist wrote:

I like GR's book and have used it in my old campaigns.

However, for PFRPG, there is quite frankly a better version:

Purple Duck Games' Assassins of Porphyra (Linked to my HP's review of it.)

Best assassin-class out there. ^^

I've seen it. I'm not in love with it, but I agree that it is currently the best assassin base class out there. Even the prestige base class that PDG did doesn't quite measure up.

Thanael wrote:
Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
Libertad wrote:
Thank you for the information. Are you one of the backers? If not, do you have any links of backer discussion, KickStarter or otherwise, confirming this?
I'm a backer. Have books 1 and 2 and all 7 for WotW.
You mean actual printed physical copies? Hmm...

No, no actual physical copies yet. We're still waiting on pretty much everything. So far it's just pdf formats.

Grand Lodge

Just thought I'd put there here, but just in case Gary doesn't think to mention it, or doesn't "retrain" Ivy, now that Unchained is out, let's change her up for the first two books. Make her an unchained rogue.

As for what feat to replace the old Weapon Finesse feat, I leave that up to you guys. I was going to say choose a feat from a later incarnation of her, but there is none. It would seem Gary wants us to build her on our own. Well, alright. I guess she levels up when everyone else does too. Also, remember to change her dagger damage. Small does 1d3, not 1d4.

If Gary never updates her from rogue to unchained rogue, I'd recommend taking Piranha Strike at 3rd. Give her a bit more power.

Grand Lodge

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I just found the absolute greatest item for a dwarf campaign. If there's another source, let me know, because this is the first time I've laid eyes on it.

Source: Lords of the Peaks - The Essential Guide to Giants (3.0).

Horn of Endless Mead
A massive drinking vessel made from the horn of a dire animal or some exotic creature like a gorgon or even a dragon (for a truly rare and precious item).
The horn of endless mead is usually carved with runes or scenes of revelry, often chased or decorated with silver and precious gems. At a command from its holder (often written in runes on its surface), the horn fills with a fine quality mead (a fermented honey beverage) and remains full, no matter how much is drunk from it. Mead can be poured from the horn at a rate of about a gallon per round without ever emptying it. When the command word is repeated, the horn stops refilling. These items are often owned by giant jarls and chieftains who sometimes challenge visitors to drinking contests without telling them of the horn's magic. Some horns produce fine ale or wine instead of mead, while a few rare horns can produce two or three different beverages, depending on the command word used.
Caster level 9th; Prerequisites Craft Wondrous Item, create water; Price 8,000 gp (more for horns made of especially rare materials); Cost 4,000 gp (+ 320 XP).

Now tell me that doesn't belong in a dwarf campaign.

Grand Lodge

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I'm relatively sure that almost no one will see this post, but while searching for more dwarven adventures to tide the party over until Book 3 shows up (at this rate they'll be too high of level to even bother), I came across a 4th Ed D&D adventure from Dungeon Crawl Classics called Forges of the Mountain King. It's only a level 1-3 4th Ed adventure so by now the characters are probably too high a level to bother, or it could be too much to simply increase all of the CRs, but I think my guys are at a point that I'm just going to cheat and make all of them Mighty for a quick +5 CR. The rest will be easy to supplement. If you're even higher than that, and need immediate CR 16+, just make them all a Paragon.

As well, a person by the name of Angelo Bertolli created an original D&D (as in 1st Ed) adventure available for free online, called "Dwarven Kingdom: Dwarves of Rockwater". It's for levels 3-6. A Google search of the title will help you find it. Should be the first pdf link.

Other than that, just keep plugging away. That's about all I'm doing.

Just for fun I put in an ice forge haunt.

Another option I got reminded of was the Kobold King series from Paizo. Crown of the Kobold King and Revenge of the Kobold King, both being 3.5, meaning conversions would be necessary. It "works" because in the first one five children are kidnapped and taken beneath a cursed dwarven monastery. So, what race of the children? Well, you've got svirfneblin and elves. The PCs will have already met both. One underground, and one above ground. It's quite possible that it'd be more difficult to get drow PCs involved, but all it really takes is to let them know that the kobold king would sacrifice the children in order to get more power. I doubt drow would enjoy the idea of a kobold being superior to them in any way, shape, or form. That said, likely more for the dwarf side of the story.

Grand Lodge

Just for kicks, I've updated my blog to start discussing this AP, but it won't be talked about nearly as often as Way of the Wicked.

Grand Lodge

After experiencing it myself for the first time, part of me is wondering/hoping that Book 3 is done, but waiting for Bestiary 5 to be released so he can legally put the book out. The monsters we see in the adventure paths from Paizo aren't legally allowed to be touched for 3PP, but the bestiaries are open content. As a publisher pointed out to me: if it's on the reference site, you can use it. If it's on d20pfsrd then there's a 60% chance you can't. And also because of legality issues, you aren't open to discuss it.

Just another week, and I'll see if my theory's correct. Granted the monster(s) really should have been swapped with something else, but if it's truly the case, you can't always do that. Sometimes you can't rearrange vision.

I'm curious as to how this will come about.

That said, I got reminded of a book by Solace Games called Elves of Darkness. Not great, but lots of play for the drow side of things. Little Red Goblin Games also came out with a races of darkness PDF. I like the idea of a young drider race, and a less weak version of the derro. That said, I'd have given them the -4 Wisdom so they could afford the SR racial ability. But that might just be me. Other than that, pretty solid.


kevin_video wrote:

part of me is wondering/hoping that Book 3 is done, but waiting for Bestiary 5 to be released so he can legally put the book out...

Granted the monster(s) really should have been swapped with something else, but if it's truly the case, you can't always do that. Sometimes you can't rearrange vision.

This may be a fault of mine, but hearing this just makes me angrier. Not only is he not communicating with us, but now he's adding material which, to remain legal, will *add even MORE delays* to the project? At this point, his "vision" is getting in the way. As far as I'm concerned now, he needs to directly communicate with us ASAP with either a decent timetable to deliver the goods, or an offer of a refund.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Unimportant wrote:
kevin_video wrote:

part of me is wondering/hoping that Book 3 is done, but waiting for Bestiary 5 to be released so he can legally put the book out...

Granted the monster(s) really should have been swapped with something else, but if it's truly the case, you can't always do that. Sometimes you can't rearrange vision.

This may be a fault of mine, but hearing this just makes me angrier. Not only is he not communicating with us, but now he's adding material which, to remain legal, will *add even MORE delays* to the project? At this point, his "vision" is getting in the way. As far as I'm concerned now, he needs to directly communicate with us ASAP with either a decent timetable to deliver the goods, or an offer of a refund.

Except theres no evidence of him doing that it's just Kevin_video theorising and it's one I find extremly doubtfull.

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FYI: a new update for Throne of Night was sent today (Oct 29) regarding an 'overview' map of the entire campaign area.

Dark Archive

Yup. For those that ordered it, the poster map is available for download. 90 mb and looks pretty amazing.


NOOOOOO! It's backer only. Did he actually release the entire overview map to backers? What does it look like? What else did the update say?

Dark Archive

The basics of the update are:

- Map is completed and shows the hex maps of all 6 books and how they connect (and really does look good.)
- It will be printed and shipped with the 6 books for backers.
- E-version of the map is available for download.
- Book 3 will also include rules on using an all myceloid (mushroom people) adventure party.
- Thanks for patience.


I'm beginning to wonder if part of the problem isn't similar to David Gerrold's efforts to write "The War Against the Chtorr," where the fifth book out of a planned eight-ish has been delayed for twenty years because Gerrold writes far enough ahead that developments as he wrote the last three books kept causing him to rewrite the fifth...


Jenner2057 wrote:
Yup. For those that ordered it, the poster map is available for download. 90 mb and looks pretty amazing.

Looking forward to downloading this later tonight!


Good map.

...Two-thirds of it is underdark ocean...


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Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:
I'm beginning to wonder if part of the problem isn't similar to David Gerrold's efforts to write "The War Against the Chtorr," where the fifth book out of a planned eight-ish has been delayed for twenty years because Gerrold writes far enough ahead that developments as he wrote the last three books kept causing him to rewrite the fifth...

My opinion is that with WoTW, he just adapted a personal homebrewed campaign who happened to be good and succesful. He already had the whole story, plot and ideas done, and only needed to format them for proffesional use.. He VASTLY understimated the pressure of timelines, and the possibility to get a dryness of creativity, or find himslef stuck.

Paizo uses teams of pro designers for their APs, working coordinated, with stronger support. It's basically imposible for him to keep the pace. WotW kept the pace, because it was already done before it started, only needed a bit of fornating, stating the monsters well, etc.

And probably he's now scared and disoriented. He didn't manage failure well. And maybe have thought about giving up. He's unable to finish and unwilling to accept it.

I feel sorry for the backers.

Grand Lodge

Kevin Mack wrote:
Unimportant wrote:
kevin_video wrote:

part of me is wondering/hoping that Book 3 is done, but waiting for Bestiary 5 to be released so he can legally put the book out...

Granted the monster(s) really should have been swapped with something else, but if it's truly the case, you can't always do that. Sometimes you can't rearrange vision.

This may be a fault of mine, but hearing this just makes me angrier. Not only is he not communicating with us, but now he's adding material which, to remain legal, will *add even MORE delays* to the project? At this point, his "vision" is getting in the way. As far as I'm concerned now, he needs to directly communicate with us ASAP with either a decent timetable to deliver the goods, or an offer of a refund.
Except theres no evidence of him doing that it's just Kevin_video theorising and it's one I find extremely doubtful.

That's correct. I'm just talking out loud about my own experience where I had to wait for Bestiary 4 to come out before we could do a complete reworking on a race we were looking to convert, and was wondering if he ended up with the same hang up. It could be completely wrong, and outside the box for what's actually going on, but nonetheless I'm curious.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:

Good map.

...Two-thirds of it is underdark ocean...

I'd say 1/3

Grand Lodge

Kevin Mack wrote:
Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:

Good map.

...Two-thirds of it is underdark ocean...

I'd say 1/3

Yeah, I'd agree with that. Definitely explains why one book would be solely dedicated to just that. Massive lakes, small rivers, then massive lakes again. Hopefully someone in the party has Profession (sailor).

I am curious about the alternate race for going through this. The first book mentioned being escaped slave humanoids, or kobolds. I'd like to see that write-up be a thing.

Community Manager

Removed a few unhelpful posts and their responses. Please keep it civil, thank you.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
kevin_video wrote:
The monsters we see in the adventure paths from Paizo aren't legally allowed to be touched for 3PP, but the bestiaries are open content.

Why is that? I know there are exceptions from time to time, but aren't the monsters in the APs "usually" open content?

Grand Lodge

Steve Geddes wrote:
kevin_video wrote:
The monsters we see in the adventure paths from Paizo aren't legally allowed to be touched for 3PP, but the bestiaries are open content.
Why is that? I know there are exceptions from time to time, but aren't the monsters in the APs "usually" open content?

Not all of them. Just the ones that are in the OGL. There's a file for publishers that let you know what you can and can't use. If it's not on that list, it's a no-go.


Is this new map (hopefully) going to made available for purchase anytime soon? I'd go buy it right now if I knew where to do so.

Grand Lodge

Guang wrote:
Is this new map (hopefully) going to made available for purchase anytime soon? I'd go buy it right now if I knew where to do so.

That's actually a good question. It was originally just supposed to be a full poster map for the backers. It'd be cool is everyone could buy it.

EDIT: Yeah, it says on there "Kickstarter exclusive" for the poster map. I wonder how long that'll stay the case.


kevin_video wrote:
Guang wrote:
Is this new map (hopefully) going to made available for purchase anytime soon? I'd go buy it right now if I knew where to do so.

That's actually a good question. It was originally just supposed to be a full poster map for the backers. It'd be cool is everyone could buy it.

EDIT: Yeah, it says on there "Kickstarter exclusive" for the poster map. I wonder how long that'll stay the case.

prob til someone just outs it and posts it online ;-0

Grand Lodge

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So I was ready for a scenario with my group to do above ground, but they decided they wanted to go underground for a bit (seriously, players can be so aggravating at times). Thankfully, I had the Purple Duck Games Forgotten Encounters - Underground on my external drive, and was able to use that. I got this back in 2011. Totally forgot I even had it (typed "Underground" in the search bar). Turns out that there's a few one-shots that you could use for Throne of Night. Namely "A Cry for Help" and "The Empty Throneroom". They're not that high of CR, but a few templates, class levels, and/or increased numbers can fix that really fast.


Grollub wrote:
kevin_video wrote:
Guang wrote:
Is this new map (hopefully) going to made available for purchase anytime soon? I'd go buy it right now if I knew where to do so.

That's actually a good question. It was originally just supposed to be a full poster map for the backers. It'd be cool is everyone could buy it.

EDIT: Yeah, it says on there "Kickstarter exclusive" for the poster map. I wonder how long that'll stay the case.

prob til someone just outs it and posts it online ;-0

Any chance of a glimpse of at least a thumbnail? I'd like to organize my surface world to match. And if the thumbnail is big enough I'll make it my new wallpaper.

Grand Lodge

Plug, plug. My new book came out today.

It's already the 6th. I'm hoping that this means an update of a release soon.


This has possibly been the most frustrating single occurrence in twenty years of gaming for me. Sadly I was too late for the Kickstarter, but a friend mentioned it about 18 months ago and I bought book 1 and 2 very swiftly (I think right as 2 was released) and have LOVED the campaign.

Then I actually did the research.

I don't have the heart to tell my players, and they are quickly marching into book 2...I want to run this campaign to conclusion but lose more and more faith about it ever happening.

If anyone would like to share a peak at that world map, it would be cherished. If it is released, I would buy it in a heartbeat.

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