I'm not certain why this is...but the gaming industry seems to be one of the few industries where retailers receive their product on (or in some cases after) the street date. Most other entertainment related industries have the product in their back room prior to release and ready to be put on the shelves by the start of business on the street date.
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I'm not certain why this is...but the gaming industry seems to be one of the few industries where retailers receive their product on (or in some cases after) the street date. Most other entertainment related industries have the product in their back room prior to release and ready to be put on the shelves by the start of business on the street date.
I suspect it's because most other industries are big enough that if you breach street date, they can deploy a phalanax of lawyers to dsestroy you.
There's also probably an element of most gaming stores being independant single traders, a lot run by people who are enthusists first, business people second, quite often a distant second (note I said a lot, not all, and I didn't assign a negative connitation to the ratio)
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By the way, something like this could be sent directly to Vic.Wertz@Paizo.com or Customer.Service@Paizo.com.
-- david
Papa.DRB
My flgs (Dragon's Lair in Austin)wound up receiving only a brick of huge boosters, and nothing else, and seemed less than pleased.
Hum looks like online retailers got their orders filled by alliance. I swear that distributors product filling policies have done more to hurt gaming than almost anything else.
Our FLAG recieved one brick of standard boosters and no huge boosters at all. They also did not get any of the Rune giant. It was not even close to their order. I was on tap for a major buy but had to settle for only a few boosters.
That's quite irritating. Who knows what the issue is - maybe those shops are all going to receive a batch several weeks late. Nonetheless, it's a disappointing impression to be giving.
Support your FLGS is a phrase that gets said a lot on these forums. Well Red Cap's Corner is my FLGS and I went in yesterday with a few crisp, ATM fresh, twenties ready to buy at what I had intended to be the first of several 4 paks from my FLGS only to hear this story.
So now I am supporting my FLGS and adding my voice!
In the end it's Paizo's name and brand on the product and if customers and retailers are unable to access the products due to some third party's mismanagement of their own business then it reflects poorly on Paizo and all the hard work you guys do is for nothing.
Please look into this issue so I can give you and my FLGS more of my money.
Thanks!
Paizo, I think it's time to swing a big stick and make your presence known.
If it's swung I doubt they will do so in public.
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A lot of this is Alliance not ordering enough, because other stores miss the preorder deadline. This happens for many reasons, but in our area it's mostly because of the bad sales reps Alliance has.
The owner of the store I work for asked his rep every week if he could preorder the RotRL minis yet, and was told no until 2 weeks before the street date. And at that point he told the rep to preorder 2 cases 2 rune giants and 2 of anything else on preorder (I told him there would be 3 things) and the rep told him the standard boosters and rune giants were all that was on preorder. Also, there were issues with the fact that alliance was only selling the standard boosters by the brick, but the giant was only by the case, so a bunch of stores in my area ordered 2 standard booster skus and 2 runes giants, and got the two bricks of standard boosters and not rune giants, because they had not ordered 8 bricks....
Alliance is also notorious for not sending product to their distribution centers in enough volume to cover preorders.
I had a similar issue with my FLGS. They were sold out in days because they received only a portion of what they ordered, and I missed out on buying any.
My flgs (Dragon's Lair in Austin)wound up receiving only a brick of huge boosters, and nothing else, and seemed less than pleased.
Hmmm. That doesn't bode well for its offspring, Dragon's Lair here in San Antonio.
Although I prefer to order from Paizo or support the Lair, in this case I'm glad I decided to take advantage of the much lower bundle price at popularcollections.com. The standard case/huge case/rune giant are scheduled to reach me on Friday.
Chief Technical Officer
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I completely understand not wanting to open the floodgates for early shipment, but could you please, please, please authorize distributors to ship products to arrive the day before their street date?
We are completely fine with distributors doing that. (I do know that sometimes, lead times just don't allow that, though.) If it happens regularly, you might want to just make sure your distributor knows the actual number of days it takes for you to get your deliveries, and ships accordingly.
Pathfinder Battles
As Lisa mentioned, we're looking into it, but I do know a few things. WizKids prints to order, and if retailers order late, Alliance allocates the product. I have to say that I don't really blame WizKids for printing to order; if I were in their shoes, I'd do that too... at least until I've had enough releases in a line that I'm comfortable making my own predictions. I also understand why Alliance allocates instead of does first-come, first-serve; I'm not sure I'd personally do that, but I do get it.
WizKids, as I'm sure you know, is exclusive with Alliance, but despite that fact Heroes & Monsters was available from other distributors (at a crappy wholesale rate, but available nonetheless), and I was told that that was because you guys had required it as part of your contract with WizKids. So, disheartened at having my order cut so dramatically by Alliance, I called up other distributors to see if I could get more product at a crappy discount, only to be told that WizKids decided only to print enough product this time around to fulfill their obligations to Alliance, Paizo, and their own direct orders. In essence, WizKids said "sure, other distributors can buy it from us, but shucks, we just don't have any to sell to them." And seeing as I got such a tiny percentage of my order, I can only assume they tried so hard to cut out other distributors that they didn't print enough for Alliance this time around either.
This is really our doing. For H&M, Paizo did indeed offer product to non-Alliance distributors, but only for that set, and here's why:
Normal WizKids sales go like this: product goes straight from China to Alliance's warehouses, and from there to retailers. H&M sales through other distributors went like this: from China, to Paizo's warehouse, to the distributor's warehouse, to retailers. That extra leg meant not only one more party that needs to increase the cost to the next link in the chain, but also one more domestic shipping charge, which—on a product that comes in huge cases—is pretty significant.
Basically, we spent a lot of effort and cost in sales and shipping, only to just about break even on those distro sales. Couple that with the fact that—as you mention—it meant retailers were getting crappier margins than they would through Alliance, it wasn't really making anyone particularly happy, so we stopped offering it after that set.
Frankly, this experience taught me exactly why it makes sense for WizKids to be exclusive with Alliance: if stuff were going from China to WizKids to multiple distributors—which is exactly what it did before they went exclusive—the same problem would exist. By cutting out that extra step, WizKids, Alliance, and the retailers all get to have decent margins.
...it honestly sounds like the shortage was intentional, which is a real shame.
Believe me, WizKids doesn't like leaving money on the table any more than anyone does. I'm confident that this is about a product line that's ramping up—that the bulk of the retailers didn't realize how much they really wanted until after the preorder deadline had passed, and that screwed everyone.
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Chief Technical Officer
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The owner of the store I work for asked his rep every week if he could preorder the RotRL minis yet, and was told no until 2 weeks before the street date. And at that point he told the rep to preorder 2 cases 2 rune giants and 2 of anything else on preorder (I told him there would be 3 things) and the rep told him the standard boosters and rune giants were all that was on preorder.
I can't vouch for what your store's rep might have said, but I personally observed that Alliance's database listed both regular bricks and huge bricks as preorder items several months ago.
The owner of the store I work for asked his rep every week if he could preorder the RotRL minis yet, and was told no until 2 weeks before the street date. And at that point he told the rep to preorder 2 cases 2 rune giants and 2 of anything else on preorder (I told him there would be 3 things) and the rep told him the standard boosters and rune giants were all that was on preorder.I can't vouch for what your store's rep might have said, but I personally observed that Alliance's database listed both regular bricks and huge bricks as preorder items several months ago.
Do people still talk to reps to make orders these days? I thought everything was computerized.
I know my FLGS does most things by computers but when I place a custom order (which is pretty much every other Thursday) if there's something I'm requesting that they're not sure about they'll just call up their distributor rep directly.
As to everyone's problem. That sucks and I feel for ya. I`m in Atlantic Canada and I pretty much have to custom order half the things I buy when it comes to gaming, and even then we usually get most products (even pre-ordered) one to two weeks after street date release. I'm still waiting on my copy of Magnimar, City of Monuments and they ordered from their distributor the week before it supposedly released. Still, I`m incredibly thankful my FLGS puts a lot of emphasis on the "F".
Weirdly enough though, regarding the minis (my store placed a full order just for me) - they arrived on time and in full. I'm shocked. I hope this works out for everyone else soon.
Cheers,
Tony
I completely understand not wanting to open the floodgates for early shipment, but could you please, please, please authorize distributors to ship products to arrive the day before their street date?We are completely fine with distributors doing that. (I do know that sometimes, lead times just don't allow that, though.) If it happens regularly, you might want to just make sure your distributor knows the actual number of days it takes for you to get your deliveries, and ships accordingly.
Pathfinder BattlesAs Lisa mentioned, we're looking into it, but I do know a few things. WizKids prints to order, and if retailers order late, Alliance allocates the product. I have to say that I don't really blame WizKids for printing to order; if I were in their shoes, I'd do that too... at least until I've had enough releases in a line that I'm comfortable making my own predictions. I also understand why Alliance allocates instead of does first-come, first-serve; I'm not sure I'd personally do that, but I do get it.
WizKids, as I'm sure you know, is exclusive with Alliance, but despite that fact Heroes & Monsters was available from other distributors (at a crappy wholesale rate, but available nonetheless), and I was told that that was because you guys had required it as part of your contract with WizKids. So, disheartened at having my order cut so dramatically by Alliance, I called up other distributors to see if I could get more product at a crappy discount, only to be told that WizKids decided only to print enough product this time around to fulfill their obligations to Alliance, Paizo, and their own direct orders. In essence, WizKids said "sure, other distributors can buy it from us, but shucks, we just don't have any to sell to them." And seeing as I got such a tiny percentage of my order, I can only assume they tried so hard to cut out other distributors that they didn't print enough for Alliance this time around either.This is really our doing. For H&M, Paizo did indeed offer product to non-Alliance distributors, but only for that set, and here's why:
Normal WizKids sales go like this: product goes straight from China to Alliance's warehouses, and from there to retailers. H&M sales through other distributors went like this: from China, to Paizo's warehouse, to the distributor's warehouse, to retailers. That extra leg meant not only one more party that needs to increase the cost to the next link in the chain, but also one more domestic shipping charge, which—on a product that comes in huge cases—is pretty significant.
Basically, we spent a lot of effort and cost in sales and shipping, only to just about break even on those distro sales. Couple that with the fact that—as you mention—it meant retailers were getting crappier margins than they would through Alliance, it wasn't really making anyone particularly happy, so we stopped offering it after that set.
Frankly, this experience taught me exactly why it makes sense for WizKids to be exclusive with Alliance: if stuff were going from China to WizKids to multiple distributors—which is exactly what it did before they went exclusive—the same problem would exist. By cutting out that extra step, WizKids, Alliance, and the retailers all get to have decent margins.
...it honestly sounds like the shortage was intentional, which is a real shame.Believe me, WizKids doesn't like leaving money on the table any more than anyone does. I'm confident that this is about a product line that's ramping up—that the bulk of the retailers didn't realize how much they really wanted until after the preorder deadline had passed, and that screwed everyone.
Thanks for that insight. Makes things a little clearer.
Any chance you'd explain why allocating makes sense for Alliance? (without expressing any view as to whether it's good or bad).
From the armchair, I reckon I'd fill the orders of those stores who preordered by the deadline and send those who missed out the catalog and preorder deadline for the next set.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Any chance you'd explain why allocating makes sense for Alliance? (without expressing any view as to whether it's good or bad).
From the armchair, I reckon I'd fill the orders of those stores who preordered by the deadline and send those who missed out the catalog and preorder deadline for the next set.
If you have enough product to fill 95% of your orders, for example, then allocating each customer to 95% of their individual order will make sure all of your customers are somewhat happy and none of them are super unhappy. So allocation seems like the best plan.
The lower the percentage, though, the less it's true: if you're giving all of your customers 10% of what they ordered, they'll *all* be unhappy, so if you want *any* of your customers to be happy, maybe it's better to give the first 10% of your customers everything they ordered and leave the 90% who ordered late out in the cold. It's kind of hard to say "no" to customers, though...
But if you make a policy that says "sometimes we allocate, and sometimes we don't," people will likely be confused and angry when it doesn't play out the way they think it will.
So if most of your allocations are minor, maybe it makes more sense to have an allocation policy; if most of your allocations are major, maybe it makes less sense.
I'd just like to point out that I have seen multiple small gametores have problems with alliance. Most of these problems involved alliance reps in one way or another. Maybe Paizo should mention preorder deadlines at the end of a minis blog sometime around the deadline?
Any chance you'd explain why allocating makes sense for Alliance? (without expressing any view as to whether it's good or bad).
From the armchair, I reckon I'd fill the orders of those stores who preordered by the deadline and send those who missed out the catalog and preorder deadline for the next set.
If you have enough product to fill 95% of your orders, for example, then allocating each customer to 95% of their individual order will make sure all of your customers are somewhat happy and none of them are super unhappy. So allocation seems like the best plan.
The lower the percentage, though, the less it's true: if you're giving all of your customers 10% of what they ordered, they'll *all* be unhappy, so if you want *any* of your customers to be happy, maybe it's better to give the first 10% of your customers everything they ordered and leave the 90% who ordered late out in the cold. It's kind of hard to say "no" to customers, though...
But if you make a policy that says "sometimes we allocate, and sometimes we don't," people will likely be confused and angry when it doesn't play out the way they think it will.
So if most of your allocations are minor, maybe it makes more sense to have an allocation policy; if most of your allocations are major, maybe it makes less sense.
That's fair, I guess. I'm probably too harsh, but I'd be more inclined to fulfill those who ordered in time (like the OP's store) rather than inconvenience them in the interests of keeping some more casual stores happy. I figure it's a mistake they'll make once.
.Of course, that's assuming Alliance provided clear, timely information as to how it would all work. I have no idea if that's the case or not. The lack of availability of huge boosters makes me wonder whether, for this set in particular, it wasnt clear that ordering "one standard case and one case incentive" meant you were missing out on some of the minis. I'd find that disappointing, since it might make WizKids think there is very little demand for huge minis when, in fact, there might just be a lot of unmet demand due to ordering confusion.
I gave up on my FLGS stores, they never have anything in on time and its always gone before I get there, so I usually order through Amazon or Noble Knight any more. My nearest store is over 45miles away anyhow.
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My flgs (Dragon's Lair in Austin)wound up receiving only a brick of huge boosters, and nothing else, and seemed less than pleased.
I shop there, and I can say right now this displeases me a great deal. I had intended to go and buy 2-3 regular boosters and 1-2 Huge boosters...and now, based on what I'm reading here, this means I'll need to go elsewhere for regular boosters.
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I'd just like to point out that I have seen multiple small gametores have problems with alliance. Most of these problems involved alliance reps in one way or another. Maybe Paizo should mention preorder deadlines at the end of a minis blog sometime around the deadline?
Just a plus one to this idea, both sets of minis I have tried to preorder from ,y various flgs, giving them both ample preorder time. In both cases they were not even aware of the product or a preorder deadline. For H&M it worked out, but for Rune Lords the store got enough std boosters bricks for its order, but they got exactly one huge booster, not one brick, one booster period.
I have never had a problem with Minature Market. I usually pre-order. I got my Rune Lord case on Friday.
Part of the problem is the Disti is doing it wrong. Alliance themselves should be anticipating customer demand and ensuring that they have warehoused sufficient product. It's not up to WizKids to anticipate demand.
If Alliance's customers tend to drag their heels and order too late, then Alliance has some data regarding what their sales should be. They should recognize that as a distributor, part of your role is to sit on excess product for a reasonable time after introduction and... distribute it. Yes, you might have to discount product after the initial excitement draws down, but you set your pricing accordingly.
There's this just-in-time mentality that some distributors have that just doesn't serve them or the stores they sell to.
ZERO of this is related to Paizo though.
That's a reasonable point too, I think. Hopefully that's partly due to it being a new (and therefore high risk) product line where they don't have much information as to how it will sell. With luck, they'll get better at estimating "late preorders" as more sets are released.
WizKids does very well with other minis ie Heroclix.
Was that to me? I was referring to Alliance taking the risk, not Wizkids. From what I gather, Wizkids just produce however much gets ordered, so there's pretty negligible risk there (although I suspect they also produce a few as replacements in case of breakage in transit).
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I would expect that the popularity of each line has a reasonable amount of variance. Although they're all 'miniatures' the market distinguishes (I would guess) pretty strongly between the various product lines. I'm buying a few hundred minis from each PFBattles release but dont even look at Heroclix - no doubt there are many who are the exact opposite. Presumably Alliance also stock miniatures from a whole bunch of producers besides Wizkids.
I could imagine it being a real drag on a distributor's business if they splashed out on a bunch of stock which then never shifted.
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CEO
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One other thing to remember, this is still a very new product line. WizKids is still figuring out what the demand is for Pathfinder Battles minis. The worst thing for a publisher is having a new line of products and not knowing how many to print. You are basically taking a shot in the dark. Sometimes you underprint. Sometimes you overprint (the worst thing possible). And sometimes you nail it. In this case, it seems that WizKids underprinted. Which means there is more demand than they anticipated. Which is good for the long term success of the line. Bad for the near term implications.
Remember, we had this problem with the Core Rulebook. We vastly underestimated the demand on launch and had to reprint before we even got done shipping books to the distributors. And THAT was our huge product launch. When you are dealing with something new, it is hard to guesstimate numbers.
Just some thoughts from the other side...
-Lisa
Lisa,
If it is the case that WizKids underprinted, would they do another print run?
Lisa,
If it is the case that WizKids underprinted, would they do another print run?
That is always a difficult question. Since there are certain minimum thresholds you need to reach when doing a production run.
I'll give an example with smaller numbers.
Say the demand for a product is about 1,200 items. Minimum print run size is 1,000 units. Producer isn't certain how well the item will do, so only prints 1,000 units. Those sell out immediately, and there is 200 units of demand left. But printing 1,000 more units to sell 200 is like losing money. On the other hand, had they known originally what the demand was like, they could have printed 1,500 units at a slightly better cost.
So the short answer is, probably not. Not unless they think they only managed to reach ~50-60% of existing demand.
Yes, that is why I was asking. Where I am not intimately familiar with numbers (percentages) on what is needed in ordering, I do know that these (miniature) sets are by no means ‘green’ print runs (like the hardcover books). It’s usually one print run, and that’s it.
That is why I ask if it was determined the print run was well short (and I’ve seen several posts indicating their FLGS had very little received), would WizKids do another one.
To be honest, it’s not going to affect me directly. I have a total of three cases coming and that will be plenty to cover my needs. But I hate to see those who come into the game later on and would like H&M, or RotRL minis and they are very rare and hard to get a hold of. I understand they are in a business and looking to make profit, but coming from the consumer standpoint it would be nice where someone could still buy H&M/RotRL boosters, or find a Warchief Ripnugget without paying $40.
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CEO
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Lisa,
If it is the case that WizKids underprinted, would they do another print run?
They very well might. That is something that they are going to have to figure out for themselves, as they take all the risk on reprinting. I know they are considering it. I guess we will have to wait and see.
-Lisa
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Chief Technical Officer
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OK folks I used to work for a major defunct distributor back in the nineties and given the margins that distribution usually work on for a profit they can't afford to over order product.
Yep. Not only do distributors work with very slim margins, but one of their key values to publishers is that they already shoulder the risk of retailers who don't pay on time—or at all. The distribution tier of our hobby is just not equipped to take substantial inventory risk.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I'd just like to point out that I have seen multiple small gametores have problems with alliance.
They're by far the biggest distributor, so whenever you hear a retailer complaining about their distributor, odds are good it's Alliance. I'm confident that they're not any worse than any other distributor in any significant respect. Indeed, Paizo is one of their biggest suppliers *and* one of their biggest customers, and while there are occasional bumps in the road, they're pretty good to work with.
Also, some retailers do cover their own mistakes by pointing upstream; it's easier than admitting to a customer that they didn't order enough, or forgot to order at all.
Maybe Paizo should mention preorder deadlines at the end of a minis blog sometime around the deadline?
We don't even know what Alliance's ordering deadlines are—we order directly from WizKids, and the order deadline we have would be different.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Vic, I am curious as to why Paizo isn't simply its own distributor? Especially considering you move such a huge amount of your other product directly from your own warehouse.
There are a few really big reasons why our industry uses distributors.
First, it means that publishers can have a handful of distributor accounts instead of a thousand or so retail accounts. That means Paizo can have a sales staff of two people, not dozens. Second, it means that when we fulfill orders, we're shipping pallets of product via freight to a handful of customers, which is way easier than shipping hundreds of different-sized boxes to hundreds of customers. (While Paizo already has that infrastructure for customer orders, we'd probably have to double the size of it if we didn't have distributors.) Note that shipping by freight is also cheaper than shipping boxes, so even though there's an extra party doing markups, that's offset somewhat by the savings in combined shipping. (Which is to say, if we sold directly to retailers, we'd probably have to offer less of a discount than we do to distributors, due to higher fulfillment costs.)
Second, it means publishers only have to worry about accounts receivable for a few established customers, whom we know have the resources to pay their bills on time. When retail stores get flaky—or go out of business entirely—distributors cushion us from that impact.
Third, it means that retailers don't have to set up accounts with dozens of different publishers—they can set up an account with one distributor and get everything they need in a single order, for a single shipping fee.
Event Coordinator - Dragon's Lair Comics & Fantasy®
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My flgs (Dragon's Lair in Austin)wound up receiving only a brick of huge boosters, and nothing else, and seemed less than pleased.I shop there, and I can say right now this displeases me a great deal. I had intended to go and buy 2-3 regular boosters and 1-2 Huge boosters...and now, based on what I'm reading here, this means I'll need to go elsewhere for regular boosters.
As someone who works at the Austin Lair, let me say: the rumors of our shortage have been greatly exaggerated :) I'm looking over at the shelf and I'm seeing probably 8 or 10 of the regular boosters right this moment.
We have both sizes in stock for now, and while we did receive fewer than we were hoping for, we are expecting more to be coming soon.
By the way, if you're ever after something that we ran out of, tell us and we'll special order it for you. We don't charge extra for special orders, you don't pay till you pick it up, and that way you won't have to pay shipping like you would getting it online. We can do that for anything currently in print or production, including minis. Neat, eh?