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After some consideration, I'm wondering about house-ruling Wisdom completely out of my games. There are a few reasons for this:
1) The definition of "Wisdom" seems very confused. It's used at once to describe a character's common sense, intuition, interpersonal abilities, and attention to detail. Each of these things seems like it could more effectively be rolled into another stat.
"Perception" seems as though it would fit better with Constitution, particularly since all spells rendering a character blind/deaf target Fortitude saves.
"Sense Motive" would work better rolled into Charisma. Seriously, you could have an expert diplomat/liar who has NO IDEA what somebody else is ever thinking. Do you know anybody like that? Me neither. Really, any measure of common sense or intuition could be rolled into intelligence, or charisma of the "ineffable force of the universe" variety.
2) On that same theme of being ill-defined, WIS is the hardest dump stat to play because of this confusion. We have very clear images of what a low-INT or low-CHA character is like, but low WIS? Ask three people, you'll have three different definitions.
3) It's too vital a stat, hitting a lot of already MAD-classes pretty hard. Pathfinder already greatly improved upon this by rolling the Paladin's spell-casting into Charisma, so why not solve the problem for everybody?
4) I already here of a lot of people rolling Will-saves into Charisma, which flavor-wise makes a LOT more sense, being as Charisma is your FORCE of personality. Fluff-wise, it makes a lot more sense.
So my question now is, what is the detriment to ditching the stat? Why, aside from familiarity, would be a good reason to hold onto it?
After some consideration, I'm wondering about house-ruling Wisdom completely out of my games. There are a few reasons for this:
1) The definition of "Wisdom" seems very confused. It's used at once to describe a character's common sense, intuition, interpersonal abilities, and attention to detail. Each of these things seems like it could more effectively be rolled into another stat.
"Perception" seems as though it would fit better with Constitution, particularly since all spells rendering a character blind/deaf target Fortitude saves.
"Sense Motive" would work better rolled into Charisma. Seriously, you could have an expert diplomat/liar who has NO IDEA what somebody else is ever thinking. Do you know anybody like that? Me neither. Really, any measure of common sense or intuition could be rolled into intelligence, or charisma of the "ineffable force of the universe" variety.
2) On that same theme of being ill-defined, WIS is the hardest dump stat to play because of this confusion. We have very clear images of what a low-INT or low-CHA character is like, but low WIS? Ask three people, you'll have three different definitions.
3) It's too vital a stat, hitting a lot of already MAD-classes pretty hard. Pathfinder already greatly improved upon this by rolling the Paladin's spell-casting into Charisma, so why not solve the problem for everybody?
4) I already here of a lot of people rolling Will-saves into Charisma, which flavor-wise makes a LOT more sense, being as Charisma is your FORCE of personality. Fluff-wise, it makes a lot more sense.
So my question now is, what is the detriment to ditching the stat? Why, aside from familiarity, would be a good reason to hold onto it?
The biggest single issue is that CHA suddenly becomes the GODSTAT. Changing the way that stats work would require a substantial rewrite on virtually all material to some degree.
"Sense Motive" would work better rolled into Charisma. Seriously, you could have an expert diplomat/liar who has NO IDEA what somebody else is ever thinking. Do you know anybody like that?
I know many such. They can charm you into doing the stupidest thing in the world.
I know many, many people who are amazingly smart but have absolutely no common sense.
How would this affect an uneducated woodsman with no force of personality, but who can find his way in any forest and follow any game trail without even thinking twice about it? (ie: survival)
Wisdom has always made sense to me.
1. Yes Wisdom is kind of a harder to pin down than the others, but it is distinct. It is a bit more subtle than the other stats.
I don't agree with Perception based on Con, makes a lot of sense for it to be Wisdom-based. It doesn't matter how acute your vision/hearing is if you can't notice what is out of place. For regular "do you hear X or see Y" checks, using Con makes sense, but Perception also includes checks to notice that one of these runes doesn't match the others. For Sense Motive, I know plenty of people who have incredibly magnetic personalities (high Cha), but can't read other people at all (no Sense Motive). Are makes a good point about the uneducated woodsman.
2. I don't really see this issue often. Most people are loathe to dump Wis, and playing as someone who is oblivious to their surroundings and basic logic is not too difficult in itself.
3. Agreed, it is a really vital stat for a lot of things.
4. Agreed, one thing I kind of like about 4e is that saves are based on the higher of two stats (Fort -> Str & Con, Ref -> Dex & Int, Will -> Wis & Cha). I like it because logically, both stats factor into it. If you are able to predict where the fireball will land due to calculating the trajectory, shouldn't that give you a boost to avoid getting hit?
Yeah. Wisdom is kind of vague to understand. This is why I like people trying to figure out how to RP charactors with certain dumped stats: gives me a chance to try and figure out how certain stats actually work.
Basicly, think of Wisdom and Intelligence as going hand in hand. Intelligence is your book smarts: knowing why fire is hot, or how to do advanced math problems. Wisdom is your street smarts. It's how to get things done. Wise people think outside the box: they might not now exactly how many apples they have, but that doesn't matter because they know they have enough to feed their family for a week.
An intelligent person knows how to pick a lock. A wise person knows that it's easier to go around the side and find an unlocked door.
An intelligent person knows that he can feel if a fire is hot with his hand. A wise person knows it's a batter idea to check carefully, in case something is really hot.
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4. Agreed, one thing I kind of like about 4e is that saves are based on the higher of two stats (Fort -> Str & Con, Ref -> Dex & Int, Will -> Wis & Cha). I like it because logically, both stats factor into it. If you are able to predict where the fireball will land due to calculating the trajectory, shouldn't that give you a boost to avoid getting hit?
Ooh, I like that a lot. Anything that makes MAD less MAD is a good thing.
Although I did realize shortly after posting what somebody else said about Charisma becoming a god stat.
1) The description makes perfect sense to me.
I do not see how in any way Perception should be Con-based. (Also, I apparently have a great con score since I hardly ever get sick, but I am horrible at looking for things.) Also, Holy Word targets will and it deafens, blinds, paralyzes, and even kills.
Sense Motive doesn't make sense being charisma-based. You are looking at social ques and taking hints from that. (and again in my case: I'm a horrible people person, but I can decipher some ques.)
2) "Oh, there was a rock there? I didn't notice... Also, I seem to have misplaced by +5 Flaming Burst Keen Axiomatic Scimitar. Can you help me find it?" Or so I think.
3) Vital stat? Sure it helps Perception, Will Saves, Sense Motive, and some other stuff, but I hardly find it vital. With what I lack in Wisdom, I make up for by usually having a good Intelligence, and putting ranks into said skills. Saves, Cloak of Resistance +1 only costs 1,000 gp. Constitution and Dexterity are more vital stats than Wisdom usually.
4) Dunno about this, but kings often fall to evil, and they are charismatic (how else do they become kings?) Although really, not sure on this.
TL;DR I don't think anything needs changed.
Dunno if it'd become a God Stat... Well, maybe for classes that focus on Charisma, but the same can be said about Wisdom.
Right now, unless you have some kind of supernatural ability related to Charisma, it amounts to nothing more than a bonus to a few skills. There is a reason Cha is the most common "dump stat"
Making a save be based on Charisma would only make it about as good as Wisdom (Of course, Clerics and Sorcerers are a different case).
But for a class that has nothing dependant on either attribute, like Barbarians, Fighters, Rogues and Wizards, 9 out of 10 times, Charisma is dumped , Wisdom, not so much.
EDIT: Also, while I don't think Sense Motive should be Cha-based, I do think characters should e able to use Bluff to indentify lies. After all, if they are masters of deception, they probably know one or two tell-tale signs that someone is lying.