Magic Item Crafting: any unresolved questions?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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mdt wrote:

Here's a question :

Dragonhide : When making dragonhide armor, must all the hide come from one dragon, or can hide from multiple dragons be used to make up the armor? If it's that it must all come from one dragon, then it is impossible to make some suits of MW dragonhide armor for medium creatures (due to some dragons never reaching the biggest sizes, I'm looking at white dragons). However, if you can use multiple dragons, then the dragonhide entry doesn't give sufficient information about how many of a size you need for a given size/type of armor.

And do you need to kill the dragon? (I allowed my party druid to find shed dragon scales to make armor).

Dark Archive

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Sean K Reynolds wrote:

I consider evil outsider bane and chaotic outsider bane to be two different properties.

Evil outsider bane and evil outsider bane are the same property, though...

Thanks for the reply. As you can see from another poster's reply, whether they're separate or whether they stack or not is something you may look to clarify if this thread's subject matter is the place you're looking to do it, if not it may help to be added to the FAQ. Or not, just something I've run into over time.

You guys rock for taking time to listen and reply to your customers. It is greatly appreciated.


Ian Eastmond wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:

I consider evil outsider bane and chaotic outsider bane to be two different properties.

Evil outsider bane and evil outsider bane are the same property, though...

Thanks for the reply. As you can see from another poster's reply, whether they're separate or whether they stack or not is something you may look to clarify if this thread's subject matter is the place you're looking to do it, if not it may help to be added to the FAQ. Or not, just something I've run into over time.

You guys rock for taking time to listen and reply to your customers. It is greatly appreciated.

As for stacking... I am not a dev but what I view it as is a third option.

Evil outsider Bane and Chaotic Outsider Bane both have a +2 Hit and Damage bonus which does not stack as they are both a Bane bonus. The extra dice however do stack. So a "+5 Orc bane, Human Bane" would hit a half orc as a +7 sword and do 4 additional dice of damage.

So basically there are at least 3 possibilities for bane stacking.


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Oh, another thing:

Can you upgrade unique magic items? For example, turning a sword of subtlety into a +2 short sword with the properties.


Cheapy wrote:

Oh, another thing:

Can you upgrade unique magic items? For example, turning a sword of subtlety into a +2 short sword with the properties.

Or adding extra spells to a Staff of the Magi :)

Silver Crusade

Sean, it seems to me that that the DEV's for pathfinder hate staffs.
If you compare Staffs to wands wands hold 50 charges and staffs only hold 10 charges. Staffs are bigger than wands and there for should hold more magic potential than wands. Staffs IMO should hold 50 charges
be reloadable and use the casters stats and feats

Staffs are realy just a spell holding device so instead of having wacky formulas for caculating the price for a staff that take advanced degrees in mathamatics to figure out staffs should be priced a fixed price forleast staffs that can hold 1st thru 3rd level magic greater staffs that can hold 1st thru 6th level sells and big Khuna staffs that hold st thru 9th lebvel magic.

each spell level should take one charge and each meta magic feat that a caster whishes to use takes one charge for example a Maximized fire ball would take 6 charges on a staff for a bg boom.

This would make staffs much more viable IMO for Pathfinder what do you think?

Contributor

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Lou Diamond wrote:
Sean, it seems to me that that the DEV's for pathfinder hate staffs.

This sort of statement isn't helpful, BTW.


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Lou Diamond wrote:
Staffs are bigger than wands and there for should hold more magic potential than wands.

This is one of the silliest things I have ever read.

'Cuz obviously, magic is somehow based on physical limitations - which is why a tall wizard can cast more spells than a short wizard.

Silver Crusade

Sorry Sean, my phraseology was unkind. It seems to me the Devs take certain iconic things and make it very hard to get/use them. I can not figure out why this happens. 95% of all pathfinder material is 5 star quality the remaining 5% confounds me. Could you give us a little background on how the staff rules came to be? I think this might be helpfull so we could see behind the veil of how staffs came to be.

Could you and the other DEVS make some more class speific magic items
you guys come out with some whiz bang classes like the Magus, Inquistor and Witch but don't support them with magic items to make them real cool and since the PLayers in PFS can not craft items it kind of leaves it up to you guys to come up with cool magic items.

Silver Crusade

Princeimrahil, you are compareing apples and oranges storing magic in a device is about the magic potential of a device stafffs hold more magic potential than a wand that is why a staff can hold higer level magics than a wand. a good example is the Harry Dresden show when Harry is only useing a minor magic he uses his blasting rod but for major magics he uses his staff look at the amount of runes on his staff compared to his blasting rod and you can easily see the diffrence in magic potential of the two devices.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:


{snip}

Thanks for the reply Sean. I appreciate it.

JohnBear

Contributor

Lou Diamond wrote:
Could you give us a little background on how the staff rules came to be? I think this might be helpfull so we could see behind the veil of how staffs came to be.

That was something Jason decided on, I'll point him at this thread and see if he has anything to say about it.


Lou Diamond:

3.5 vs PF Staff comparison:

* Caster level, Ability Score and Feats: Both use the caster level, Ability score, and Feats of the user if superior to the staff's.

* Costs:
PF: Paizo simplified the math by using 400gp instead of 375gp as the base multiplier. 3.5 and PF both use the following pricing elements: The second spell is 75% and Third+ spells are 50% and increasing the charges required to use a spell decreasing the cost of that spell.

* Charges: 3.5 Staves could not be recharged. PF Staves may be recharged but for this the charges went from 50charges (3.5) to 10charges (PF).

Summary:
Except for being rechargable and the number of charges dropping from 50charges to 10charges the staff has not changed.

However, the usage did change. Staves went from an overpriced Wandlike (consumable) peice of equipment that was a to an item that gives you an extra spell boost in an emergency and never goes away (is not consumable).

I like this change.

Minor disagreement:
The main point of disagreement I have is that you can only charge it 1charge per day (trickle charge effectively). This is too limiting imo and I would houserule it out as 'charge it up as fast as you can' in my own games so long as my players did not go nova with it constantly. If they abused it by going nova I would put it back to 1charge/day charge time.

- Gauss


How to calculate CL for an item.

What is the CL of an intelligent item that casts spells, that have a level dependant effekt?


Can I make a wondrous Spellcraft +10 item, and subsequently craft magic items wearing that item?

(I think this is a problem btw)


I have one big question that relates to this. Although not MIC rules, it's been mentioned in this thread and often comes up in the forums and relates to among other things MIC.

The question is: Are these two lines no longer relevant?

PRD, Getting Started wrote:
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Spell-like abilities function just like spells, but are granted through a special racial ability or by a specific class ability (as opposed to spells, which are gained by spellcasting classes as a character gains levels).
PRD, Magic wrote:

Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.

It seems about every new ruling on SLA's I see seems to treat those lines as irrelevant - if they no longer should be assumed correct, has there been any errata? It would be good if it came to pass.

Basically, what I've seen of the written rules, spell-like abilities work just like spells unless otherwise specified. What I've seen when it comes to specific questions (metamagic rods, item crafting and so on) it seems to work differently unless otherwise specified. The one exception I've seen is the ruling on Augment Summoning to work on SLA's, which further confuse me - why is Augment Summoning considering SLA's spells, but item creation is not?


Tandriniel wrote:

How to calculate CL for an item.

What is the CL of an intelligent item that casts spells, that have a level dependant effekt?

I can answer this:

Intelligent Item Rules wrote:
caster level for these effects is equal to the item's caster level.

While the intelligent item rules doesn't specify what the caster level of certain items are, you can take a look at the base item, or simply base it off, whoever created the item.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Particularly curious question. Can you use the Craft skill to craft the components necessary for making a magic item? You take 450gp worth of diamonds, then grind them down, polish them, annoint them with magically significant oils, place marks that nonmagically damage the yet enhancing the natural magical channels, etc; creating a final product of 1350gp worth of diamonds to be used in adding glamour to armor. It would drastically increase the time necessary to make a magic item, but it would in exchange make the initial monetary investment much easier to handle.


Thanks for taking the time to ask this:

I have the following questions:

1) How ofter per week to you laugh/cry at all the crazy stuff that this community thinks of? :-)

2) Could you please put in some clarification on the limitations?

Item Requires Skill to Use: Some items require a specific skill to get them to function. This factor should reduce the cost about 10%.

Item Requires Specific Class or Alignment to Use: Even more restrictive than requiring a skill, this limitation cuts the price by 30%.

I've seen players that try to claim they can make a wondrous item only usable by LG Elf Rangers and it should get a 90% discount. Obviously the answer there is "No", but some clarification on that as well as perhaps some recommendations on the use of those limits. I've also seen cases where people try to apply the 30% to every item they make just to get the discount.

3) Can each end of a double weapon be enchanted differently, can I have a quarterstaff that is +1 flaming on one end and +5 shocking on the other end?

Thanks again,
-AK

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
AzureKnight wrote:

I've seen players that try to claim they can make a wondrous item only usable by LG Elf Rangers

I actually charge extra for restrictions like that. They add 10-30 percent to the cost.


Azure, they can, but not at any discount. Possibly at an increase too.

Grand Lodge

I have assumed that an intelligent item could not cast spells with the range of personal on its wielder (casting a shield spell the benefits that wielder instead of benefiting the item). Is this correct?

I have also assumed that intelligent items could cast touch spells on a wielder that is holding or wearing the item. Is this correct?

Are there any restrictions on placing magical abilities on items based upon slot or slotless status? For example, could you duplicate the abilities of a Luckstone on a Ring (for less gold than creating the slotless Luckstone)? Another example - could you add the abilities of a Ring or Amulet to a Helmet instead? I'm assuming the answers are yes to these questions but think it might be helpful to explicitly state this.

Thanks for this thread. Cheers!

Grand Lodge

Are there limits to the gold value of player crafted magic items? I'm thinking of the old epic rules limiting items over 200,000gp to epic crafting.

Grand Lodge

Do items that that modify ability checks (pale green prism Ioun stone) modify initiative as a dexterity check?

Grand Lodge

How would you price the following bonuses?

- morale, luck, insight, competence, or sacred/profane bonuses to attack
- morale, luck, competence, or sacred/profane bonuses to damage
- insight or sacred/profane bonuses to checks
- insight or sacred/profane bonuses to saves

Grand Lodge

Are use-activated abilities priced on the Spell level x caster level x 2,000 gp formula typically activated as a free action like the Boots of Speed?

Command word activated abilities (priced on the Spell level x caster level x 1,800 gp) are typically activated as standard actions. Is there an alternative formula for abilities activated as a swift actions?

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Assuming non-caster characters that possess the appropriate item creation feats -- Are items crafted with the Master Craftsman feat strictly limited to only the craft skills explicitly named in the Core Rulebook [such as the skill craft (weapon) for crafting magic weapons] or would variants of the craft skill such as a craft (mithral) be viable for crafting any item made of mithral such as weapons, armor, or rings?

Grand Lodge

For a roughly scepter or club sized or shaped item such as the Hanbo weapon, would it be possible to add both the powers of a staff and the powers of a rod to the same object?

Must a magic staff or magic rod actually be shaped like a scepter, mace, club, or quarterstaff conforming to the Core Rulebook descriptions of these classes of magic item or could a character craft an item shaped like an orb, book, sling, or any other shape and still be enchanted with staff-like or rod-like powers?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

What happen when you add powers to an item that has a higher Caster Level than your current spellcaster level?

To make an example, a 3rd level wizard want to add invisibility to a major cloak of displacement (the minimum CL of the cloak is 5 as it use displacement, a 3rd level spell). What happen when he tries?

- he can't enchant it because the item CL is higher than his.

- he can enchant it but he must "overcast". If that is true, what is the DC? He get a +5 to the DC for each level he is missing? Or only once? Or, as the CL is not a prerequisite, he don't need to increase the DC for missing a prerequisite?

- he enchant it adding invisibility at his CL and the cloak will have two powers with different CL (5 for the displacement effect and 3 for the invisibility effect).

- he can enchant it at his CL but the CL of the spell is boosted to the item CL.

Keep in mind that his can generate some serious problem with weapons, as an example if you are adding powers to a weapon with a +3 enhancement bonus it has a CL of 9. Plenty of weapon powers have a CL of 8 so whatever your ruling is it will have a serious impact on weapons and armor enchanting.

Sovereign Court

Can you put metamagic rod powers on a Wondrous Item?

Sovereign Court

Not so much a question, but more of a request:

Can we have a non-generic name for an item to record on our character sheets for keeping track of "crafting materials?" Am I or am I not required to visit a vendor to purchase "crafting materials" between crafting things, and how do we measure/record what is obtained from said vendor(s)?

Otherwise if I want to craft things between visits to a vendor while out adventuring: do I just arbitrarily turn loot into crafted items by using an eraser & a pencil to empty my bag of holding's bounty of masterwork armor & weapons by removing the entry on my character sheet and replacing it with Wands of Cure Light Wounds (or whatever else is in need of crafting)?

On that note: can we have a spell or craft method defined/explained for converting loot into "crafting materials" while we're stuck in a dungeon for weeks or months?

Note:
...I tried to proofread that. I hope it makes sense.


Virgil wrote:
Particularly curious question. Can you use the Craft skill to craft the components necessary for making a magic item? You take 450gp worth of diamonds, then grind them down, polish them, annoint them with magically significant oils, place marks that nonmagically damage the yet enhancing the natural magical channels, etc; creating a final product of 1350gp worth of diamonds to be used in adding glamour to armor. It would drastically increase the time necessary to make a magic item, but it would in exchange make the initial monetary investment much easier to handle.

This would be bad due to the spell Fabricate which will take all the extra time out of it. The example I like to use is a Staff of Wishes which would take 1,250,000 in Diamond Dust (Beyond level 20 Wealth by level). With Fabricate they could get that with a little less then 420k in raw diamonds (within level 20 Wealth by Level).


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Please clarify what is considered as "the creator" of the item.

For example, to create a Cloak of Elvenkind, it says "the creator must be an elf". Can you use the cooperative crafting rules and have an elf Wizard help you meet the prequisite, and therefore bypassing needing to add the +5 DC (in not being an elf)?

Contributor

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Baroh Steelcleave wrote:

Not so much a question, but more of a request:

Can we have a non-generic name for an item to record on our character sheets for keeping track of "crafting materials?" Am I or am I not required to visit a vendor to purchase "crafting materials" between crafting things, and how do we measure/record what is obtained from said vendor(s)?

I've been wanting to expand upon that aspect of the game for a long time now, and that's definitely in the book.


I'm very excited to see the fruits of this labour.


I think they may be going for something a tad more general than that.

Silver Crusade

Deleted the post. I'm also interested in the acquisition of crafting materials. If your game doesn't have a "magic mart", where do you get this stuff? If I buy crafting materials to enchant a sword with holy, can I later decide to use those materials to make winged boots having found a more urgent need? Not looking for quick answers, just things I've always wondered as I play alot of crafter characters.

Note: would my specific item question go into the rules forum?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Probably already asked, but I am in kind of a hurry this evening:

- Can a wielder of a Ring of Sustenance get a second 8-hour period ( or fraction thereof ) into his workday to circumvent the quartering his output would suffer during an adventuring day?


Restricting an item to a single class is actually a 30% discount.


Buri wrote:
Restricting an item to a single class is actually a 30% discount.

Ah yes, it'd be great to get some extra language specifically about this and players trying to use it to reduce the cost to ... not much at all.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Buri wrote:
Restricting an item to a single class is actually a 30% discount.

Not if it's an item that could normally only be used by said class.

In my games. restrictions ADD cost, not substract it. The only time I ever allow a restriction to deduct cost is when it restricts the PLAYER.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Baroh Steelcleave wrote:

Not so much a question, but more of a request:

Can we have a non-generic name for an item to record on our character sheets for keeping track of "crafting materials?" Am I or am I not required to visit a vendor to purchase "crafting materials" between crafting things, and how do we measure/record what is obtained from said vendor(s)?
I've been wanting to expand upon that aspect of the game for a long time now, and that's definitely in the book.

Hopefully it's something simple and abstracted for ease of play, like what our group does:

We simply write "magical crafting supplies (worth Xgp)" on our character sheets, where X is how much we spent on it. It's usually worth its weight in gold.

It's basically like carrying around your gold savings while looking forward to making that shiny new item, except the transaction has already been made and you can begin your progress the moment you have a bit of quiet time (even if stranded in the middle of nowhere).

That way crafters aren't nearly as screwed when they have lots of time on their hands, but don't often get into a settlement.


Some things I would like to see expanded in the new rules.

1. One-shot/use magic items. How to make them, cost, use, and how long they last before the magic runs out of them from the time they are made.

Ideas I am thinking about are things like a band-aid that gives one point of healing using the zero level cleric spell Virtue.

If your healer or other party member is down and out, a patch you can put on the forehead that uses Stablize to keep them from dying till you can find the time and/or help to heal them.

For wars/traps one shot landmines that use fire or ice spell damage.

2. Info on the metal that is made using black blood that was only one of two lines in one of the new books. What is it? How is it made? Cost of the metal and how it can be used to make magical items?

3. Not a part of the rules you are working on. But some time down the road how about new magic items we can use around the home, such as cookiing to flavor, color the food. Also along with this would be magical items to that would help with non-magic npc/pc on the job work.

Thanks to everyone above me for asking many of the other questions that I had about making magic items.

Scarab Sages

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Baroh Steelcleave wrote:

Not so much a question, but more of a request:

Can we have a non-generic name for an item to record on our character sheets for keeping track of "crafting materials?" Am I or am I not required to visit a vendor to purchase "crafting materials" between crafting things, and how do we measure/record what is obtained from said vendor(s)?
I've been wanting to expand upon that aspect of the game for a long time now, and that's definitely in the book.

As a player, after visiting a large town and discussing with my DM, I've often written on my character sheet, 1000gp worth of materials to craft _____.

A question. Say I wanted to craft a Blessed Book (craft cost, 6250gp). If I buy 1000gp worth of material, can I spend 4 nights around the campfire (2hrs a night) crafting. Then, next time I come to a major town, procure another 1000gp worth of raw materials and spend another 4 days crafting. Once I reach the magic number of gp and days, do I have it? Or do I need to procure all the materials first and then start crafting?

Short version, can a character do partial crafting?


Stick me in the group that would love it if JB came in and explained how the Staff rules came to be.


A commonly house-ruled idea is to allow monster parts to substitute for crafting materials (or sometimes to use alongside crafting materials). Some thoughts along those lines would be interesting. (I know, that's not really a question.)


magnuskn wrote:

Probably already asked, but I am in kind of a hurry this evening:

- Can a wielder of a Ring of Sustenance get a second 8-hour period ( or fraction thereof ) into his workday to circumvent the quartering his output would suffer during an adventuring day?

I think your question is actually two.

First: Can you increase the amount of time you are crafting past 8 hours a day if you are not required to sleep as much (from an item such as a Ring of Sustenance)?

CRB p549 wrote:
The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit.

Thus, no he cannot get a second 8hour period.

Second: If you are adventuring is the extra time provided by a Ring of Sustenance also half effective? (Note: It is not 1/4, it is 1/2.)

CRB p549 wrote:
If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours’ worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night.
CRB p549 wrote:
If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks. This work is generally done in a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or shrine. Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress ( just as with the adventuring caster).

My personal take: The second quote is not a restriction. It is in fact a means to enable adventurers to craft while adventuring. If said adventurer is able to find a place that is not distracting or dangerous (as per the third quote) and has (up to 2) 4hour blocks of the day remaining then he can craft normally. A Ring of Sustenance can help make this happen (still needs to find a distraction free environment to get time that is not halved.).

- Gauss


Was just looking at Scrolls, and the "time required to craft" guidelines are atrocious.
2 hours for 250gp or lower - 1 day/1000gp
Wonderful, so how long does it take to craft a scroll that costs more than 250gp but less than 1000gp?
What about 1400gp? 2700gp? 3500gp?

Edit - Honestly, ditto for all crafting. A wand with a 4th level spell takes 21 days to craft? That'll likely take multiple adventures to complete, assuming minimal down-time. What good does a crafting feat do me if I never see the results in time to use it?
9th Level Wizard Player - "I start crafting my Staff of Power now."
GM - "Good! You'll actually be able to afford it, according to WBL, by the time you're done!"

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

I have a question about crafting times. Is it intended that spells with expensive material components should make their items take longer to craft? For example, a wand of stoneskin is 12500gp more expensive than a wand of dimension door. Should it really take 13 more days to make? That extra cost has less to do with the "magic itemness" of the wand and more to do with being needed for 50 castings of the spell, so it seems a bit odd to include it in the crafting time.


Craft Wand wrote:
Benefit: You can create a wand of any 4th-level or lower spell that you know. Crafting a wand takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. To craft a wand, you must use up raw materials costing half of this base price. A newly created wand has 50 charges.

Emphasis mine. "Base" is the keyword. As Stoneskin is a 4th level spell, the base cost of a wand of Stoneskin is 21,000gp (or 24,000gp if a Sorcerer crafts it). The cost of the expensive material components is just extra expense.

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