Native Outsiders and "Person" spells


Rules Questions


So I have a question for everyone. According to the spell text of spells like charm, hold, dominate, etc person it only affects creatures of the humanoid type. The thing is playable races such as Aasimars, Tieflings, Undines, etc are of the Outsider (Native) Type. So does that mean that these spells would not affect these races. Would you have to use the much higher level "monster" spells to effect them.


Correct. The immunity via type is not always a good thing for the Outsider (Native), though; Enlarge person cannot affect the party's aasimar paladin, either.

Sovereign Court

That is entirely the case. An Outsider Alchemist can drink extracts of People spells (with a material component of Soylent Green), but that's he only way they can be affected.

People Spells:
Enlarge Person
Reduce Person
Dominate Person
Hold Person
Charm Person


An exception would be an aasimar with the Scion of Humanity alternate racial trait. I think it's interesting that the native outsiders generally can't use disguise self (or a hat of disguise) to look like a humanoid—but they can look like any kind of outsider instead. So, there are trade-offs.


I suppose that is the case. This is not the first time I have run into this though. It just seems that having a first level PC that is immune to these spells can be quite powerful, and while not being able to gain the benefits of Enlarge and Reduce is a draw back, it does not seem to be enough to counter that you are immune to Dominate person. This makes these races seem almost default when you are doing a campaign which features any number of creatures with Dominate Person as a spell-like ability.

It really also does not make sense when one looks at the Advanced Race Guide's section on building new races. It only lists Outsider (Native) as costing 2 racial points, the same amount that darkvision is.

Edit: Actually it costs 3 racial points, but still seems a little low for what it does.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Aasamir can have the Scion of Humanity alternate racial trait. They can count as both Outsider(Native), and Humanoid(Human) for spells, effects, and prerequisites.


It's only protection against a few spells. To me, it seems on par with something like elven sleep immunity, and it'll probably be useful on fewer adventures than darkvision will.


tenshinoshi wrote:

It really also does not make sense when one looks at the Advanced Race Guide's section on building new races. It only lists Outsider (Native) as costing 2 racial points, the same amount that darkvision is.

Edit: Actually it costs 3 racial points, but still seems a little low for what it does.

I'd consider that a pretty overcosted ability when compared to darkvision.

In my experience, most adventurers find themselves wishing they had darkvision more often than they're targeted by one of the few spells this protects against.


Being a Native Outsider comes with free Dark Vision, so you're basically just paying 1 extra RP for immunity to Person spells.


True. That makes it spot on in terms of price :)


One thing I hadn't noticed before is that the PF Alter Self spell specifies that you take the form of a humanoid rather than a creature of the same type (as it was in 3.5).


tenshinoshi wrote:
. . . It just seems that having a first level PC that is immune to these spells can be quite powerful. . . This makes these races seem almost default when you are doing a campaign which features any number of creatures with Dominate Person as a spell-like ability.

It can be quite powerful if these spells come up a lot but that is no different than any other immunity if the circumstances are favorable. Darkvision is incredibly powerful if the party finds itself stuck underground with no available light sources for two entire levels. It's all about context. For example, Native Outsiders can also be the subject of Planar Bindings if the caster is on another plane other than the Material. That's an awkward situation if a villain finds a way to target a specific Native Outsider (the PC). Now this is barely even a weakness, unless the GM has built a campaign where the group is fighting against a multiplanar conspiracy of Conjurers. Then it could become a real problem. See, context.

Also, a lot of the Native Outsider races can't really be default choices for players if the GM doesn't allow it. Many of those races are entirely optional.


I'd say it is a huge boost. Cleric's 2nd level Hold person is very lethal provided the caster is wise enough to apply it correctly. As long as he has an ally in melee with you, he delays to right before his ally acts, casts and if you fail the save, you eat a CDG from the cleric's ally long before you get the second save that supposedly balances the spell. Even at mid levels, a couple of low powered enemy clerics will ruin your front liner's day.

Also if a cleric interrupts your action with a readied hold person, they will act again before you get to your chance for your second save.


Frankthedm, how often exactly do you run NPC clerics that use hold person on the PCs? 1/40 encounters? IF that? While I agree that certain campaigns might be heavy on that sort of thing the large majority of campaigns use monsters that have very little in the way of 'person' spells or abilities. I don't think a native outsider is that big a deal. The benefits and drawbacks tend to balance out.

- Gauss


Like I said in some campaigns these races would almost seem like default. A lot of low to mid CR enemies have dominate person as a racial spell-like ability. In a group that is all native outsider races this messes up the CR for these enemies. Suddenly a lot of delay tactics don't work.


Their inherent immunity to "person" spells also nets native outsiders an RP disadvantage. When the tiefling conjurer comes strolling in to town looking like Hellboy (or whichever fiendish hero you want), even if he is the epitome of goodness, he will not be treated as well as the human necromancer who intends to turn the whole town into mindless zombies. Same goes for ifrit or undines. Even aasimar; they just aren't normal.


Well I have gotten my answer at lease. Thanks everyone for helping clarify this rule for me.


tenshinoshi wrote:
Like I said in some campaigns these races would almost seem like default. A lot of low to mid CR enemies have dominate person as a racial spell-like ability. In a group that is all native outsider races this messes up the CR for these enemies. Suddenly a lot of delay tactics don't work.

I have not noticed a lot low to mid level enemies with that SLA. The succubus has it at CR 7, but I would not say it is common.


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The succubus has dominate person 1/day....

But I'd rather spam her unlimited charm monster then she convinces everyone in the party to accept her "gift".

I'd like to know what low-CR enemies have dominate person?
CR 7 is mid- level as far as I'm concerned.

Besides, protection from evil and circle of protection kind of stop that nonsense anyway.


Vampire spawn CR4
Vampire Base CR +2


I thought the vampire's dominate worked on everything, but I see it references dominate person.


Still not "lots"


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Wraithstrike and Darkwarriorkarg: Exactly my point. Yes, in a vampire heavy campaign it is like a 'ha ha you cannot dominate me' button. But so? PFE fixes that too.

- Gauss


Yes I might have exaggerated by saying a lot, and yes you are all right by saying that it is not really that strong of an immunity. I just found it strange that several races where Native Outsiders rather then Humanoid. I suppose it is easy enough to house rule it that "Person" spells work on these races as well.

Anyways like I said that you for helping clarify this question.


Illeist wrote:
That is entirely the case. An Outsider Alchemist can drink extracts of People spells

Is that serious? Can an aasimar alchemist affect himself with his own extract? I see no reason by reading the description.


FlorianF wrote:
Illeist wrote:
That is entirely the case. An Outsider Alchemist can drink extracts of People spells
Is that serious? Can an aasimar alchemist affect himself with his own extract? I see no reason by reading the description.

I doubt that was intended. An extract duplicates the spell it is based on, so it should work exactly as the spell does. And since the spell wouldn't work in this situation, neither should an extract of the same spell.


darkwarriorkarg wrote:
Still not "lots"

Any Serpentfolk with 1 class level, CR5. I'm running Serpents Skull, and the 10th lvl Half-Orc archer PC has a base Will save of 1 or 2. A DM's gift!

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