Can a character with Gunsmithing use it to make cannons?


Rules Questions


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Ultimate Combat wrote:


Benefit: If you have access to a gunsmith's kit, you can create and restore firearms, craft bullets, and mix black powder for all types of firearms. You do not need to make a Craft check to create firearms and ammunition or to restore firearms.

Crafting Firearms: You can craft any early firearm for a cost in raw materials equal to half the price of the firearm. At your GM’s discretion, you can craft advanced firearms for a cost in raw materials equal to half the price of the firearm. Crafting a firearm in this way takes 1 day of work for every 1,000 gp of the firearm’s price (minimum 1 day).

Crafting Ammunition: You can craft bullets, pellets, and black powder for a cost in raw materials equal to 10% of the price. If you have at least 1 rank in Craft (alchemy), you can craft alchemical cartridges for a cost in raw materials equal to half the price of the cartridge. At your GM’s discretion, you can craft metal cartridges for a cost in raw materials equal to half the cost of the cartridge. Crafting bullets, black powder, or cartridges takes 1 day of work for every 1,000 gp of ammunition (minimum 1 day).

Restoring a Broken Firearm: Each day, with an hour’s worth of work, you can use this feat to repair a single firearm with the broken condition. You can take time during a rest period to restore a broken firearm with this feat.

Special: If you are a gunslinger, this feat grants the following additional benefit. You can use this feat to repair and restore your initial, battered weapon. It costs 300 gp and 1 day of work to upgrade it to a masterwork firearm of its type.

Sorry if this has been addressed before, but I couldn't find anything about it. A gunslinger in my S&S group wants to craft cannons. Is this normally possible with the gunsmithing feat? Can he essentially pop them out at half-price (3k gp) without making checks? Are cannons considered "early firearms" and therefore assumed to be available to someone familiar with such weaponry in Golarion?

Thanks a lot for any help, folks.


Nothin'?


Where are the rules for cannons found? Because I suspect that you're wandering into custom rules territory. But I don't know for sure.

I could propose house rules, but there's no point if there's already rules for cannons.


Cannons are in Ultimate Combat. I'm mainly looking for a RAI or generally-accepted ruling on this, or at least some feedback from others, since the RAW never explicitly acknowledges siege firearms, and it seems fishy to allow it.


Cannons are not firearms, they're Siege Engines (also found in UC).

Siege Engines can be built with Craft (Siege Engine). Given that Cannons cost 6,000 gp, they would take years to craft using normal craft rules. Best thing to do if you want PCs to be able to build cannons is house-rule it.


Quantum Steve wrote:

Cannons are not firearms, they're Siege Engines (also found in UC).

Siege Engines can be built with Craft (Siege Engine). Given that Cannons cost 6,000 gp, they would take years to craft using normal craft rules. Best thing to do if you want PCs to be able to build cannons is house-rule it.

Check p. 101 of UC. It lists "siege firearms" separately from "siege engines", and also says that they do NOT use Craft (Siege Engine), but Craft (Firearm) instead. I was with you until I saw this, and since then I'm just confused.

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Sounds like a character with the gunsmithing feat can do it for 3000 gold pieces and 6 days of work with no skill check.


moon glum wrote:
Sounds like a character with the gunsmithing feat can do it for 3000 gold pieces and 6 days of work with no skill check.

Yeah, RAW makes it sound that way, but I wonder if that's what Paizo intended. It's be nice to get a dev's input on this. Six days and no training to crank out a cannon seems strange.

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Scissors Lizard wrote:
moon glum wrote:
Sounds like a character with the gunsmithing feat can do it for 3000 gold pieces and 6 days of work with no skill check.
Yeah, RAW makes it sound that way, but I wonder if that's what Paizo intended. It's be nice to get a dev's input on this. Six days and no training to crank out a cannon seems strange.

Well one question to ask yourself.

#1. If it isn't RAI, would allowing it make the game more fun for the party?

If you find that #1 is yes then allow it. Thats just my $0.02


The Gunslinger in my Kingmaker campaign is making them. I think cannons of any cailber are basically large guns anyway.


Valmoon wrote:

Well one question to ask yourself.

#1. If it isn't RAI, would allowing it make the game more fun for the party?

If you find that #1 is yes then allow it. Thats just my $0.02

^ Words of wisdom. I'll probably reduce the crafting time (as per Gunsmithing) to make it take 6 days instead of 1-2 YEARS, but I'm going to require checks for it using Craft(Firearms), as per the table in UC, since I feel like cannons should not be a trivial thing to make, even to someone who knows guns.

Thanks for your input folks.


Scissors Lizard wrote:
moon glum wrote:
Sounds like a character with the gunsmithing feat can do it for 3000 gold pieces and 6 days of work with no skill check.
Yeah, RAW makes it sound that way, but I wonder if that's what Paizo intended. It's be nice to get a dev's input on this. Six days and no training to crank out a cannon seems strange.

The training is represented by the feat! Can't be a gunsmith with out experience smithin' guns.

Though six days is awful short! Unless the gold represents paying people to help?


I'm not saying it's easy, but a cannon isn't exactly a complex machine. It's a slightly specific shape for a tube. I might require an extra couple of days setting up the smithy/forge if it hasn't been used for making cannons before. I'd expect it to be a bit of a custom set up.


Scissors Lizard wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:

Cannons are not firearms, they're Siege Engines (also found in UC).

Siege Engines can be built with Craft (Siege Engine). Given that Cannons cost 6,000 gp, they would take years to craft using normal craft rules. Best thing to do if you want PCs to be able to build cannons is house-rule it.

Check p. 101 of UC. It lists "siege firearms" separately from "siege engines", and also says that they do NOT use Craft (Siege Engine), but Craft (Firearm) instead. I was with you until I saw this, and since then I'm just confused.

But on p. 160, cannons are listed as ranged siege engines, not siege firearms. In fact, there are no siege firearms, as a weapon classification it doesn't exist. Not to mention that the DCs listed on that chart contradict the DCs given in relavent sections.

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