I'd probably never use the actual memorization peroid. It's far easier for me to just say "Ok guy, take a half-hour to regain your spells." and be done with it. I really don't see why that sort of micro-management is needed for mechanical application. Also, I can imagine the "in-character" griping that'll follow when the cleric and wizard never bother to help clean up camp and leave those duties to the rogue and fighter (or other non-spellcasting characters).
Fighter: (yawn) "We weren't attacked last night, thank the Gods! I needed that full nights sleep. Who's cookin' breakfast?"
Rogue: (looking annoyed) "Who do ya think?! Us, your moron. That overbearing cleric and esteemed high wizard are too busy prepping for the day to actually do any real work around here. Salty biscuts and some hard tack for breakfast again."
The thing is, it isn't 'half an hour'. In 1e, it could be six or seven hours, easily. Add that on to the time you had to rest, which went up as your spell levels increased, and it put some real limits on what Magic-Users could do day-to-day.
Right, which I feel is stupid to have to keep track of that stuff. It's minimalistic micro-management in the game (from trail rations, hustle/over-land travel rules, and encumbrance) that is attempting to do something it's better left off not trying (ie. simulationism). They should employ the K.I.S.S method of this stuff for the most part in the PHB/DMG and then, if they really want to add this stuff in, could do so at a later date. I don't think I've ever used the Encumbrance rules outside of "This statue, worth 500 gp, is 350 lbs. Your not carrying it on your back."
As for limits, this shouldn't be where it's implemented on magic-users. Again, this is where I just disagree with the whole intent of the designed system. Placing arbitrary limits on magic-users that still penalize the whole party is just as bad as them using up their spells and then wanting to rest, thus furthering the 15-min. workday element of daily resource management.
So 5E certainly looks interesting so far. The playtest packets so far show a suitably rules light system for the Grognards, I'm not sure how the 4E fans feel about it though. It has the foundation of 3E but it's not 3E, so I don't think it will appeal to that crowd either. I hope the Grogs turn out for WoTC and 5E because the designers are really catering to them about as much as they can. I think they will be disappointed though the Grognards are small in number, large in words, and light on spending money. The 3E crowd is the one that puts its money where its mouth is and Paizo locked them up.
I certainly can't speak for all the 4E fans, but for me and my group, we probably won't be playing much of D&D:Next. There are a lot of fundamental aspects build into the system that just aren't to our liking. This is, in no way, saying they're bad rules. They just don't cater to the style we normally enjoy. Though I do think a lot of 4E influence (from the fans) has made a significant impact on the system so far. Just looking at the Playtest #1 packet's Fighter to the Playtest #2 packets Fighter shows a huge change in style and options (whether or not those options would've been put in at a later date is unknown).
As for catering to fans of 2E and before, yes I definitly get that vibe from the way the rules are written to how the mechanics play out. Bringing back Save-or-Suck/Die spells, rules "lite" on many areas, huge DM-fiat encouragement, penalties on "cool" (looking at you TWF/Dual Wielder speciality), and super low HP at first level (wizard back to 4-5 HP) are just things that I really really really don't like.
Like I said with the first playtest packet (and this one is no different): if this were 4E I probably would have stayed on the WoTC bandwagon (assuming the subsequent support material and adventures were interesting to me). So I guess WoTC has learned a lesson from 4E in that I think this rule set has some promise. Unfortunately (for WoTC) I'm not interested in moving away from PF for the foreseeable future. The only thing I think might be able to change my mind would be a good 1st to whatever 5E considers high level "Adventure Path" type offering for 5E. They need to stick with a “these are the final rules and everything else is an adventure or campaign setting” type of model to even have a chance with me.
There is actually a lot of stuff in D&D:Next that has very strong ties to 4E, espically now after the second packet and the Combat Superiority rules for Fighters. Additionally, using HD as a healing method is just like Healing Surges of 4E, except it's not used as your main daily resources for resting (spells do that again :facepalm:). But, sadly, these aren't elements that I feel best represent the style and flavor of 4E, which was a unified system but diversity within roles and classes.
The are no bonus spells for having high intelligence?
The are no bonus spells for having high intelligence?
Not at this current time, no. However, a lot of the utility spells, like Alarm, can be cast without preparation by invoking a Ritual. A Ritual is a casting method that takes longer to cast (typically 10 minutes at this point) and costs additional resources (about 25 gp per spell level). A Wizard can cast any spell as a Ritual as long as that spell has a Ritual form.
For instance, you could prepare the Alarm spell and cast it as an action or you could:
You can cast this spell as a ritual by spending at least 10 minutes preparing additional material components that include chalk, extra bells, and a silver cord, all worth no less than 25 gp.
So a Wizard might not need those extra spell slots as some of the more common utility spells can now be cast without preparation. Also, other spells, like Magic Missile and Shocking Grasp, are now 0-level Cantrips (or minor spells) and can be cast indefinitely, like Pathfinder. Cantrips need never be prepared, once a Wizard knows a Cantrip, he knows it for the rest of his life. So if a Wizard were to devote time to learn all the Cantrips, he could cast all of them everyday for the rest of his life. Since Magic Missile and Shocking Grasp are now Cantrips, the Wizard will likely always have an offensive spell he can use.
However, keep in mind, this is just the Playtest and it doesn't include all the rules, so casters may get bonus spells for having a high intelligence, though I wouldn't be surprised if this doesn't happen. Player Races don't get to have ability scores above 20 as scores of 21 and higher are reserved for monsters. So a Wizard, with the current rules, would only be able to get a bonus spell up to 5th level. Ever.
Adventurers can have scores as high as 20, and monsters and divine beings can have scores as high as 30.
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Of course, to be fair, I suspect a lot of people ignored that in 1E/2E games.
I'm sure they did, but you lose something of the game by doing so. This was part of the balance of the game.
H4 Throne of Bloodstone for level 18+ under 1e was a great example of caster hardly ever having all their spells each day. Can make for some exciting game play.
Under 3e+ not a single Tower of High Sorcery in the Dragonlance setting would have ever fallen.
S.
EDIT: Except the Tower of Istar - but that was a special case.
Under 3e+ not a single Tower of High Sorcery in the Dragonlance setting would have ever fallen.
Actually a good point, and another good example of how the 'magic vs. martial' balance got skewered in 3E.
Is just me or the playtest have a lot in common with the PFS beginner's box? I am not saying the final product will; but what we have so far are the rules for level 1-5 and while reading it I felt like reading the beginner's box.
The introduction of the Sorcerer and Warlock makes me incredibly wary. It's starting to feel more like 4th edition than "neutral" edition.
Sorcerer and Warlock wha...?
Where did you read about them, they weren't included in anything I got?
Sorcerer and Warlock wha...?
Where did you read about them, they weren't included in anything I got?
They were apparently released on Friday - sounds like it's maybe a third packet (?). From the WoTC website:
Friday, August 17: We are pleased to announce that the latest playtest packet -- as discussed in the Gen Con 2012 Keynote Address—is now available. This packet includes material for the sorcerer andwarock classes, levels 1-5, as well as the adventure: Reclaiming Blingdenstone.
Neo2151, the sorcerer and warlock were in the 3.X edition(s) too, and the sorcerer is in PF. Is it there mechanics that make it seem like 4E (which I may be able to see if you explain, given I don't have their playtest), or just their inclusion (which doesn't make sense to me)?
You'd think they'd give some kind of email update or something.... kinda how like when Paizo gives an email if your PDFs get updated.
Wow. I just read the Sorcerer and Warlock. I think fans of the Sorcerer are going to cry foul, and I have very little knowledge of previous incarnations of the Warlock, but the class looks almost worthless to me.
Sorcerers are now Power Point casters. They can cast a number of spells equal to their Will Power with each spell costing a number of points equal to their level. They also very much so have Bloodlines, called Sorcerous Origins, that grant you powers and abilities as you level up, and also determine your hit die. They only give one Sorcerous Origin in the Draconic Origin. Also, as you cast spells and reduce your Will Power Points, your Origin starts to reveal itself, your body may take on some of the characteristics of the your Sorcerous Origin, your personality might change etc. For instance, once you used up 3 Will Points in the Draconic Origin, you gain claws and you gain a +2 bonus to damage with melee attacks.
Your Sorcerous Origin determines what Hit Die you get, your armor proficiencies and your weapon proficiencies. I don't want to reveal too much, but the Draconic Sorcerer is going to be nearly indistinguishable from a Fighter as long as they have the same Melee Ability score.
Also, I think the Sorcerer was miss-printed or something. It says Sorcerer spells increase in saving throw DC according to the Sorcerer table, only for the table to say 10 + Charisma Mod from 1-5. So unless the Sorcerers DCs scale MUCH slower than the Wizard, then the table is in error.
The Warlock can't cast spells unless they are a ritual spell and on his spell list. So basically, he gets utility spells only. He gets Invocations as a class feature which are "Arcane Secrets that have been long lost and can only be unlocked by making a Pact with a powerful source."
You Pact grants you 2 Patron Favors, which power Lesser Invocations, while Minor Invocations can be used at will. Most of the Lesser Invocations aren't nearly as good as the two Minor Invocations presented. Hell, one of the Lesser Invocations is actually unfinished! The full entry for the Invocation wasn't included!
Your Pact also gives you a number of Pact Boons that have various effects, however, Pact Boons also cost Patron Favors to use. Only a Fey Pact is presented, and, with the exception of the Level 5 ability, I, personally, really dislike the abilities of the Fey Pact.
So, with the Warlock, you have Lesser Invocations and Pact Boons, both of which are powered by Patron Favors. However, you only have 2 favors period. As written, your number of favors never increases. So the Warlock is going to spend almost all of his time doing not much more then Eldritch Blasting as that is a Minor Invocation that deals 3d6 damage, so it can be used at will and costs no favors.
He doesn't gain any useful spells, and he is proficient with light armor, simple and finesseable weapons. So he could enter melee, but his lower bonuses to hit and damage mean he isn't going to be contributing as much. Hell, the Draconic Sorcerer would whoop the Warlock's butt in a melee fight, and the Sorcerer gets decent spells to choose from!
However, as presented, I think the Wizard takes a dump on both of the alternative arcane casters when it comes to arcane power.
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I'm not very impressed with the latest update to the playtest as the playtest itself is in error with miss-prints or mistakes, and the new classes are very lack-luster in my opinion.
I really like the sound of the sorceror. In my view accentuating the differences between sorcerors and wizards is a great idea (as is your bloodline gradually manifesting as you use more and more magic).
Tels, most of the words in your post? They actually make me want to play 5E.
Although the specific aparent balance issue between sorcerer and fighter is certainly not "good", and warlocks likely have a bad selection now, everything else about sorcerers and warlocks and their strong difference from wizards seems to be amazing.
My guess is that warlocks will slowly get more options (including unique rituals) and will gain more patron points as time goes on, as a result of feedback from this test. If rituals are anything like 4E rituals, the fact that they can do them for free or more rapidly (which is what I'm getting from your post) is a pretty big deal.
Also, does the "no spells left sorcerer = to a fighter" take into account the Fighter's new mechanic (I can't recall what it's called now, something with a dice pool to add to their combat stuffs)?
Also, also, I did hear some of this before, here (entirely worth watching, by the way, especially for an awkward, funny, and totally awesome Ed Greenwood), but I didn't know for sure what they meant at the end of it until now, so that's nifty.
All classes gain a "Weapon Attack Bonus" that they add to their attacks with Weapons. The Fighter has +3 at 1st - 3rd level, +4 at 4th - 5th level (probably 6th level too).
The Sorcerer has a Weapopn Attack Bonus of +2 from 1st through 5th level. However, the Draconic Sorcerous Origin gives a +1 Weapon Attack Bonus, so the Sorcerer now has +3 Weapon Attack Bonus at 1st - 5th level. After he has used up 3 Will Power Points, his hands turn claw-like and he becomes physically more imposing, as a result, he gains a +2 damage bonus on melee attacks. He can spend 1 Will Power Point to use the Dragon Strength power, which gives you a 2d6 damage bonus on the next melee attack against a hostile opponent made within the next minute.
So at first level, the Sorcerer will have a +3 Weapon Attack Bonus, +2 damage bonus on melee attacks if he has spent 3 Will Points, and can gain an additional 2d6 points of damage on his next melee attack. However, he only has 3 Will Power Points at first level, so he can't get the +2 to damage until he's running dry, at which point he can't use his Dragon Strength power or cast first level spells, but can still cast Minor Spells like Magic Missile.
The Fighter at first level has a single Expertise Die (a d6) which allows him to either Cleave once per round when he drops an enemy to 0 HP, make a Deadly Strike (roll Expertise Dice and add the result as damage to the attack). He regains any Expertise Dice used the following round.
Assuming the Sorcerer and Fighter have the same melee ability score (lets say 16), they will have roughly the same bonuses.
At first level, they have a +3 bonus from their ability score and a +3 bonus from their Weapon Bonus for a total of +6 attack bonus. They also gain +3 bonus on damage from their ability score, and the Fighter can roll 1d6 each round to add to his damage, while the Sorcerer can roll 2d6 on 3 attacks before he gains a static +2 damage.
The end result is that the Sorcerer and Fighter can hit and damage for roughly the same amount.
Also, the Sorcerer has spells. So he could sit back and spam Magic Missile each round, or move forward and cast Burning Hands three times or something to that effect.
As the Fighter gains levels, he will, eventually, outstrip the Sorcerer in melee potential, but I'm not sure by how much. The Sorcerer could gain further bonuses not revealed in the Draconic Origin, but at the same time, the Fighter can gain further bonuses not revealed either.
For the time being, if a character brings a Sorcerer to the table, he will be capable of wearing heavy armor (at no Arcane penalty), wielding a Greatsword and casting Magic Missile, Burning Hands, Shocking Grasp etc.
The Sorcerer, however, cannot cast Rituals like the Wizard and Warlock can. I imagine that the Sorcerer is going to be the Melee/Arcane class, the Wizard is going to be an Arcane God, and the Warlock is going to be the inbred step-child they both laugh at.
I haven't had a chance to playtest the new packet yet, but I did sit down with my group to have them create characters.
The Party
Elven Rogue
Human Fighter
Human Sorcerer
Human Warlock
So hopefully I'll get to see how the two new classes play out.
Okay, actually that... is very interesting.
This actually sounds like they're coming up with a way around the 15 minute workday, while still allowing for the "absolute consumables" that are part of D&D's history (and thus typical style).
Warlocks regain their stuff after short rests.
Sorcerers gain combat ability as they lose their spells.
Wizards simply have scores of spells.
All of this, to me, is quite interesting from a design perspective.
I... may actually have to sign up for the playtest now, or perhaps the next one. Heaven help me. Heaven help my wallet in two years, if this is any good. Fortuitously, this will have to pass inspection with both my wife and I, but... *shudders at the amount of money that could be spent*
I'm reserving judgments and lengthy observations until my group has had time to actually sit down, build PCs, and try things out, but my first glance at Playtest Packet 2 indicates that 5E is headed in a direction that I very much like. I'm especially happy that the sorcerer class pays lip service to the idea of a point-based magic system. Baseline simplicity is a big draw for me as a GM, and the game as a whole doesn't feel cumbersome. Bottom line for me is, if I do want depth and complexity and build customization out the yin yang, I'll play Pathfinder. That 5E is not trying to fill that niche as well is actually a very big draw for me.
It may be too little customization for me. PF is too much.
I think it is being designed to have different levels of customization. Such as one option where you pick your specialization, and that determines (most of) your feat selection, and one where you have complete freedom to pick what you want.
Exactly how the whole thing is going to fit together is hard to say, at this point, given the small snippets they reveal in each pack.
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Initial thoughts...
All of the playtesting feedback I send to WotC simply reads, "Whatever Matthew Koelbl said..."
To clarify why Sorcerer/Warlock worry me about design direction:
These classes are answers to the "What if I don't like Vancian magic?" question.
My issue with it is that I don't want WotC to force-feed me pre-built classes as my "options" if I want to use, say, a point-based magic system.
If I want a Wizard who plays with a non-Vancian magic style, I don't want the official answer to be, "Play a Sorcerer/Warlock and scratch out the name!" Because that's not at all what I asked for when I asked for alternate magic system rules.
What if I want a non-Vancian Cleric? Now I have to break down your point-system piece by piece and rebuild it for divine magic?
No, just no.
I think adding alternate rules is a great idea. I think implementing them through pre-built classes, and only pre-built classes, is a huge mistake.
TL;DR - I don't think people (myself included) want a Class for every option. Instead, they want different options for every class. I don't think WotC is ever going to allow themselves to understand this.
TL;DR - I don't think people (myself included) want a Class for every option. Instead, they want different options for every class. I don't think WotC is ever going to allow themselves to understand this.
I certainly don't. What's the difference? "class" is just a bundle of preselected choices about your character isn't it?
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To clarify why Sorcerer/Warlock worry me about design direction:
These classes are answers to the "What if I don't like Vancian magic?" question.
My issue with it is that I don't want WotC to force-feed me pre-built classes as my "options" if I want to use, say, a point-based magic system.If I want a Wizard who plays with a non-Vancian magic style, I don't want the official answer to be, "Play a Sorcerer/Warlock and scratch out the name!" Because that's not at all what I asked for when I asked for alternate magic system rules.
What if I want a non-Vancian Cleric? Now I have to break down your point-system piece by piece and rebuild it for divine magic?No, just no.
I think adding alternate rules is a great idea. I think implementing them through pre-built classes, and only pre-built classes, is a huge mistake.TL;DR - I don't think people (myself included) want a Class for every option. Instead, they want different options for every class. I don't think WotC is ever going to allow themselves to understand this.
To be fair that sounds like a HUGE endeavor to take on. What if I want a fighter who doesn't use the dice pool system currently in but to have abilities like Book of Nine Swords or 4e? Same for the rogue or whatever other class.
Don't get me wrong, I agree actually with wanting lots of options for every class but I'm not sure how possible that even is within the constrains of a single book for players. But maybe it would be easier if the rules do get streamlined so you don't need AS much space for strange rules giving more space for add ons like that.
For now though I'm fine enough if they do decide to use this system for your options concerning the wizard/sorc/warlock thing. It's just a name.
If I recall they did say something about being able to pick something with the choices already made or not. It could be that things like specialties and themes might have a boarder selection of options then what we are seeing.
They could be doing the play test how pathfinder did the beginners box with the feats already selected for your class.
So if a Warlock is in the party, he's gonna need to take a breather after every fight to gain his powers back. I think there's gonna be many scenarios like this one:
"Hold on guys, I need to take a breather.
"I know, I know, but I used up my favors, it's only 10 minutes."
"Aye, it may be a 10 minute rest lad, but iffin you be needing a rest after every fight, I dunnae think ye be cut out for this kin' of life!"
"Well, sorry! I made a pact with an other worldy patron for lost or forbidden knowledge you can't possibly comprehend! Did it ever occ..."
"We'll take yer rest, lad, but don be expectin' to rest after every fight. Be cautious in yer use of powers; wha' if we were on a time limit? There'd be no restin' at all!"
"I know, I know. You got to understand, my father was a powerful Wizard and I wanted to be just like him, but couldn't wait and take the proper time to develop my magic. I should never have dropped out of the Academy. I should have listened to him and become a proper Wizard. Then maybe I'd be of more use to you guys."
I think it's a good thing if every class both feels different and plays different. Sorcerers are too much like Wizards in both 3.X and PF, so this take seems like a step in the right direction for me.
Yeah and all the melee types will agree because they want to heal up, but the other casters will want to push on until after a couple of fights when they want to quit for the day to get their spells back while the Warlock just needs a few minutes and he's good as new.
You can make fun of all of them.
Except not every fight is going to require patching up. For example, a third level Warlock could be jumped mid-combat by some hulking Orc, and he uses his Level 3 Boon to impose disadvantage on the Orc's attack. This costs 1 favor, but the Orc now has a harder time hitting the Warlock on the attack. Then, the Warlock moves away and uses Baleful Utterance to deal 2d8 points of damage, and possibly deafening him, before finishing his movement to get out of range.
The Wizard turns and hits the Orc with Magic Missile. The fighter then jumps up with the Rogue and Cleric (giving the Thug Rogue necessary means of Sneak Attacking) and tag teams the Orc to death, without the Orc actually hurting anyone.
The Warlock now needs a 10 minute rest to perform a minor ritual to regain his favors.
Remember, with the exception of his Minor Invocations, almost every one of the Warlocks abilities requires the expenditure of a Favor, and he's only got 2 Favors. So in any combat, he's only going to be able to use two of his 'more powerful' abilities, before he has to rely on his melee skills or Eldritch Blasts.
I think it's a good thing if every class both feels different and plays different. Sorcerers are too much like Wizards in both 3.X and PF, so this take seems like a step in the right direction for me.
I kind of like what they did with the Sorcerer, the more I look at it, but at the same time, the Draconic Origin just really rubs me the wrong way. If they hadn't turned him into a pseudo-Fighter/pseudo-Wizard, I'd probably like it more.
But, of course, that's just the Draconic Origin, and we don't know what else they offer. I wish they had given more than just 1 Origin and 1 Pact so we could see different examples, like they did with the Cleric Domains, the Fighter specialties, Rogue Types etc.
Yeah and all the melee types will agree because they want to heal up, but the other casters will want to push on until after a couple of fights when they want to quit for the day to get their spells back while the Warlock just needs a few minutes and he's good as new.
You can make fun of all of them.
Except not every fight is going to require patching up. For example, a third level Warlock could be jumped mid-combat by some hulking Orc, and he uses his Level 3 Boon to impose disadvantage on the Orc's attack. This costs 1 favor, but the Orc now has a harder time hitting the Warlock on the attack. Then, the Warlock moves away and uses Baleful Utterance to deal 2d8 points of damage, and possibly deafening him, before finishing his movement to get out of range.
The Wizard turns and hits the Orc with Magic Missile. The fighter then jumps up with the Rogue and Cleric (giving the Thug Rogue necessary means of Sneak Attacking) and tag teams the Orc to death, without the Orc actually hurting anyone.
The Warlock now needs a 10 minute rest to perform a minor ritual to regain his favors.
Remember, with the exception of his Minor Invocations, almost every one of the Warlocks abilities requires the expenditure of a Favor, and he's only got 2 Favors. So in any combat, he's only going to be able to use two of his 'more powerful' abilities, before he has to rely on his melee skills or Eldritch Blasts.
There's quite often other bits and pieces happening post battles beyond healing. Maybe the warlock sits and rests while the thief scouts around for traps and/or secret doors - the others loot the bodies, try to work out what the treasure is, map the area, etcetera...
Granted there are some times when a battle finishes and the heroes want to charge quickly onto the next deed, but there's probably quite often a lot of subsumed activity whilst the warlock recharges his patron-batteries.
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Playtesting this at Gencon, I found character creation to be very "light your hair on fire and run all around". I don't want this:
1. Choose a Race (read all about races in chapter 2)
2. Choose a Class (read all about classes in chapter 3)
3. Choose a Background, if applicable (read all about Backgrounds in Chapter OMGMYHEADISEXPLODINGFROMFLIPPINGPAGES)
I want this:
1. Choose a Race. Here are your Options. Once you've made your choice, proceed to chapter 2.
2. Choose a Class. Here are your options. Once you've made your choice, proceed to chapter 3.
Etc.
Maybe it's just because I had literally a bunch of loose pages... seriously, Wizards? You can't 3-ring bind the damn things? But the order of creating a character was very disconcerting to me.
But, of course, that's just the Draconic Origin, and we don't know what else they offer. I wish they had given more than just 1 Origin and 1 Pact so we could see different examples, like they did with the Cleric Domains, the Fighter specialties, Rogue Types etc.
For sorcerers, I would have liked to see a draconic heritage and, say, an arcane heritage (to borrow a term from PF) just to see what direction, if any, they might be taking for less gish sorcerers.
For that matter, I felt the same way about the cleric domains. They took the 'holy knight' concept out of the core class, which I think is cool, only to include two domains that are both 'holy knight'-type domains. Sure, War and Sun are different, but I'd have liked something a little less martial for the second option, just to get an idea of their intentions.