Shrink Item as a weapon


Rules Questions


I love creative players. I'm familiar with the idea of using Shrink Item to try and hurl small rocks and revert them to boulders, but this one is new to me:

If a wizard casts Shrink Item on non-magical armor, will it crush the hapless NPC wearing the armor? I'm inclined to allow the enemy a fort-save. Thoughts?


I would probably do something like have the armor gain the Broken condition and fall off the wearer if the save was failed. It's only a level 3 spell.

Dark Archive

Or use it as a threat to make men cry.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Kolazi wrote:

I love creative players. I'm familiar with the idea of using Shrink Item to try and hurl small rocks and revert them to boulders, but this one is new to me:

If a wizard casts Shrink Item on non-magical armor, will it crush the hapless NPC wearing the armor? I'm inclined to allow the enemy a fort-save. Thoughts?

It won't happen at all. The armor worn is not unattended so it can't be targeted separately from it's wearer who is not a valid target of the spell.


LazarX wrote:
Kolazi wrote:

I love creative players. I'm familiar with the idea of using Shrink Item to try and hurl small rocks and revert them to boulders, but this one is new to me:

If a wizard casts Shrink Item on non-magical armor, will it crush the hapless NPC wearing the armor? I'm inclined to allow the enemy a fort-save. Thoughts?

It won't happen at all. The armor worn is not unattended so it can't be targeted separately from it's wearer who is not a valid target of the spell.

not sure where you're getting "unattended" from. I'm not familiar with that mechanic.

Quote:

Shrink Item

School transmutation; Level sorcerer/wizard 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range touch
Target one touched object of up to 2 cu. ft./level
Duration 1 day/level; see text
Saving Throw Will negates (object); Spell Resistance yes (object)
You are able to shrink one nonmagical item (if it is within the size limit) to 1/16 of its normal size in each dimension (to about 1/4,000 the original volume and mass). This change effectively reduces the object's size by four categories. Optionally, you can also change its now shrunken composition to a clothlike one. Objects changed by a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface or by a word of command from the original caster. Even a burning fire and its fuel can be shrunk by this spell. Restoring the shrunken object to its normal size and composition ends the spell.

Shrink item can be made permanent with a permanency spell, in which case the affected object can be shrunk and expanded an indefinite number of times, but only by the original caster.

Dark Archive

The answer is in the Spell description, check the Saving throw:

Shrink Item

Quote:

Shrink Item

School transmutation; Level sorcerer/wizard 3

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S

Range touch

Target one touched object of up to 2 cu. ft./level

Duration 1 day/level; see text

Saving Throw Will negates (object); Spell Resistance yes (object)

You are able to shrink one nonmagical item (if it is within the size limit) to 1/16 of its normal size in each dimension (to about 1/4,000 the original volume and mass). This change effectively reduces the object's size by four categories. Optionally, you can also change its now shrunken composition to a clothlike one. Objects changed by a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface or by a word of command from the original caster. Even a burning fire and its fuel can be shrunk by this spell. Restoring the shrunken object to its normal size and composition ends the spell.

Shrink item can be made permanent with a permanency spell, in which case the affected object can be shrunk and expanded an indefinite number of times, but only by the original caster.

Per the PRD on Magic:

Quote:
(object): The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object uses the creature's saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater. This notation does not mean that a spell can be cast only on objects. Some spells of this sort can be cast on creatures or objects. A magic item's saving throw bonuses are each equal to 2 + 1/2 the item's caster level.

The victim would receive a Will saving throw to avoid the effects.


So if the will save fails is the wearer of the armor crushed (plate mail) or the armor breaks and falls off?

Dark Archive

Personally (nothing really in RAW on the damage/containment part of this), I would have some damage done and then the armor broken.

Level 3 seems a little low for a save or die spell. But removing armor I can see at that level.

Shadow Lodge

Size-changing spells Enlarge Person (lvl 1) and Animal Growth (lvl 5) explicitly cannot be used to crush creatures, so making the item the target shouldn't allow the armor to crush someone.

However, the above spells can be used to burst bonds using a Strength check, so if you like to encourage player creativity they could use Shrink Item as a way to divest someone of their armor. In this case, you could make a strength check on behalf of the person wearing the armor to see if they break it (and ruling that as a special exception to the general rule, they cannot auto-fail this "break my armor check"). This would occur after the wearer fails their Will Save as Happler noted.

Reference:

Enlarge Person wrote:
If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the creature attains the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it--the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size.


I use shrunken boulders regularly with high level casters. That + Telekinesis is a great back up weapon.


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
I use shrunken boulders regularly with high level casters. That + Telekinesis is a great back up weapon.

All arguments aside... Most adorable Avatar pic EVER!


This would also be highly effective against weapons. You cant wield a weapon smaller than 2 sizes of yourself.


Rogar Stonebow wrote:
This would also be highly effective against weapons. You cant wield a weapon smaller than 2 sizes of yourself.

Not really, by the time this spell comes into play (5th level) you should probably have a magical item, which can't be targetted by the spell. Neither could magical armor. This tactic is unlikely to every work in a meaningful way since most gear a PC cares about will be magical by the time a wizard gains access to it.


Oh why wont it work with magical items?


Spell description - full descriptions upthread - bolding mine:

Quote:
You are able to shrink one nonmagical item (if it is within the size limit) to 1/16 of its normal size in each dimension (to about 1/4,000 the original volume and mass). This change effectively reduces the object's size by four categories. <snip>


Here's another terrifying option: casting Shrink Item (preferably with Reach Spell) on a big patch of green slime, changing the composition to "cloth-like" and then carrying it about like a cloak. Green slime is a hazard rather than a creature, after all, just as a burning fire and its fuel would be.

Quote:
Optionally, you can also change its now shrunken composition to a cloth-like one. Objects changed by a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface or by a word of command from the original caster. Even a burning fire and its fuel can be shrunk by this spell. Restoring the shrunken object to its normal size and composition ends the spell.

Boom. Instant area-effect green slime, over a 15' to 45' square area. Usable either by being tossed, or by leaving the cloth (which merely radiates faint transmutation magic, after all, being only a 3rd level spell) out as a ambush-bait by word of command.

Dark Archive

Zhameng wrote:

Here's another terrifying option: casting Shrink Item (preferably with Reach Spell) on a big patch of green slime, changing the composition to "cloth-like" and then carrying it about like a cloak. Green slime is a hazard rather than a creature, after all, just as a burning fire and its fuel would be.

Quote:
Optionally, you can also change its now shrunken composition to a cloth-like one. Objects changed by a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface or by a word of command from the original caster. Even a burning fire and its fuel can be shrunk by this spell. Restoring the shrunken object to its normal size and composition ends the spell.
Boom. Instant area-effect green slime, over a 15' to 45' square area. Usable either by being tossed, or by leaving the cloth (which merely radiates faint transmutation magic, after all, being only a 3rd level spell) out as a ambush-bait by word of command.

Not allowed per the rules, unless you count plants as objects for spells that only effect objects.

From the section on slimes:

Quote:

Slimes, Molds, and Fungi

In a dungeon's damp, dark recesses, molds and fungi thrive. For purposes of spells and other special effects, all slimes, molds, and fungi are treated as plants. Like traps, dangerous slimes and molds have CRs, and characters earn XP for encountering them.

Slimes, molds, and fungi are treated as plants when it comes to spells. Since they are plants, they are not objects.

Now, since they are plants, can you awaken green slime.. :P


Thread necromancy aside, I would have either caused the shrunken armor to create the "enttangled" condition or begin the "suffocation" process.

Either way, all the target would need to do to end the effect is fall prone, as once the object hits a hard surface, the effects of the spell cease. So, worst case scenario, target suffocates, falls unconscious, hits the ground and is released from the suffocating effect - awakes disabled at 0 hp (all non-lethal damage)


Happler: Plants and slimes are totally objects.

"Plant: This type comprises vegetable creatures. Note that regular plants, such as one finds growing in gardens and fields, lack Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores; even though plants are alive, they are objects, not creatures."


as a thought reading this , using shrink as a weapon could you then also take say a cannon ball or such 4 size category above medium fire it form a musket into some one or such then disple or cancel shrink and cause the person to essentially explode from he sudden increase in mass inside them , im stil relatively new to D&D and pathfinder so im not to sure of the mechanics

Dark Archive

Avoron wrote:

Happler: Plants and slimes are totally objects.

"Plant: This type comprises vegetable creatures. Note that regular plants, such as one finds growing in gardens and fields, lack Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores; even though plants are alive, they are objects, not creatures."

Thanks, I missed that.

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