What (If Any) Classes do you Ban or Alter?


Homebrew and House Rules

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I was wondering if any other GM's Ban or Alter any of the official Paizo classes? If so, why? Also instead of Banning do you Alter the Classes to tone them down or up? Do you Ban any archetypes or multiclasses?

I am seriously considering banning the Summoner and definitely banning the Synthesist Archetype.

I just wanted to get other GM's Opinions.


I don't run very often, but I'm about to, so I came up with a list of houserules. Among them are a few tweaks to a few classes.

Houseruled Classes:
Draconic Sorcerer Bloodline: The claws are now at-will instead of rounds per day. This extends to the bite attack Dragon Disciples get if the Sorcerer takes that prestige class.

Celestial Sorcerer: The wings are now an at-will ability like the wings of the Dragonic or Abyssal bloodline.

Barbarian, Moment of Clarity: This rage power can be used once per rage at 2nd level and once more for every six barbarian levels the character has.

Barbarian, Totem Warrior: Totem Warriors may select Totem rage powers from more than one Totem(Non-Totem Warriors are still restricted to only one Totem). For instance, a Totem Warrior could take Lesser Spirit Totem at 2nd level and Lesser Beast Totem at 4th level. A Totem Warrior can only pick Rage Powers from the following list.

Barbarian, Totem Warrior Rage Powers: Any Totem Rage Power, Animal Fury, Bestial Climber, Bestial Leaper, Bestial Swimmer, Low-Light Vision, Night Vision, Raging Climber, Raging Leaper, Raging Swimmer, Sprint, and Swift Foot.

Barbarian, Urban: Urban Barbarians can be of Lawful Alignment.

If I may ask, why are you considering banning the Summoner and Synthesist Summoner? Most of the complaints I've seen on the messageboards are caused by improperly built Eidolons...


many gms ban the summoner, but my group doesnt. we just make sure that the player went through the steps correctly when making their eidolon, which most dont (are you really surprised?).

i just want to point out that the summoner is in the advanced players guide. the ADVANCED players guide. this to me doesnt mean advanced options for player, but more so this is a book FOR advanced players, ie, you prolly shouldnt use some of the thing inside (especially the complicated options) unless youre either an advanced player or you have an advanced player help you out.

another problem that gms seem to forget is that when the eidolon is usually broken, the summoner himself is vulnerable. that and there are ways around the pet thing. plus, many gms also ban the summoner due to that its like they are playing the eidolon who has a human companion.

its just one of those classes you should read all the way through TWICE before even sitting down to make the character.


ArmosD49 wrote:

I was wondering if any other GM's Ban or Alter any of the official Paizo classes? If so, why? Also instead of Banning do you Alter the Classes to tone them down or up? Do you Ban any archetypes or multiclasses?

I am seriously considering banning the Summoner and definitely banning the Synthesist Archetype.

I just wanted to get other GM's Opinions.

There are some situations where a class' special abilities only apply to certain types/alignment of creatures (AKA Paladins and Anti-Paladins), and some situations where a class' special abilities are broken and require multiple nerfing/examination/changes on the GM's part to balance said class out with the others. The Summoner (and Druid if done right) is a prime example of this.

While I am no GM, our GM has banned the Summoner class altogether due to balance issues and time consumation, and for our evil campaign, altered the concept of the Anti-Paladin so that they do not need to be Chaotic Evil (can be any evil), and that their Smites and Auras and such are considered Neutral, allowing them to affect both Good and Evil alike (which makes sense, since all of our fights have involved Evil characters, and it is getting boring fighting nothing but Evil characters all the time. I want to bash some Goody Goody two-shoes Paladin in the face with my Greatsword of Doom and Sadness).

Honestly, the same problems you must understand with classes is how they would fair in a specific alignment for a campaign, or how they would balance out with the other classes. For the case of an Anti-Paladin, not only wouldn't he be viable for our Evil Campaign (we're Lawful Evil, and they must be Chaotic Evil), but their primary abilities have little to no effect on Evil characters (I'm gonna Smite Good on some Shadowman of Evil, and have it take no effect, which means wasted class features! Yay!).

I hope this helps your question/concern.

Dark Archive

Classes

Summoner - I DM a group of 8 players, there's more than enough to handle and custom fit (action economy AAUUGGH!) just with animal companions and "regular" summoned creatures. With fewer players at the table (say 3 or 4) it would be OK.

Witch - does not fit. Sorry, I can't even point my finger at whichever specific issue. Just no.

Gunslinger - no firearms. Not really liked by me, not appreciated by any of the players in a fantasy world. End of the line.

Ninja/Samurai - would allow them in an oriental-focused campaign, not right now. Monk is exotic enough, and most of its archetypes are OK.

Archetypes

Barbarian - Elemental Kin (and associated feats, just no), Urban Barbarian (does not fit).

Bard - Geisha (see Ninja/Samurai above)

Cavalier - Musketeer (see Gunslinger above)

Fighter - Thunderstriker (does not fit)

Monk - Master of Many styles (does not fit), Sohei (just roll a fighter, a paladin, a ranger or a cavalier and choose the archetype you like)

Paladin - Holy Gun (see Gunslinger above)

Ranger - Trapper (positively hate the implementation of magical traps)

Rogue - Sanctified Rogue (does not fit); Pirate would be allowed, but since we're in a landlocked campaign...

Sorcerer - Dreamspun Bloodline, Starsoul Bloodline


Banned classes in my last game:

  • Summoner
  • Rogue

    Altered classes: None, I don't think.

    Previous campaign Banned Classes:

  • Summoner
  • Any build that focused heavily on summons.

    Altered class from previous campaign:

  • Rogue with this modification.

  • Paizo Employee Design Manager

    I haven't had to completely ban too many classes, but it is well-established in my group that playing anything outside of the core book needs to be backed by proven experience and any appropriate FAQ's should be on hand (looking at you Synthesist Summoner). We usually manage to avoid having to boot classes by letting people know that they have to know their character, have to be able to complete a single turn in combat in 2 minutes or less, and have to have cards/ quick references on hand for any abilities/spells/summons with stats or complex effects.
    I would say summoner, gunslinger, some oracle builds, some monk builds have all been marked advanced players only for our group and are the closest to haing been banned. Synthesist is strongly discouraged all around, because even when everything relating to it is on hand someone still ends up feeling like they have to "double-check the math" or "make sure that's being applied right".

    We've talked about banning the Pistolero and Musket Master archetypes for the gunslinger as well, mainly because they're just so much better than the base class. There's virtually no reason to play a gunslinger who isn't one of those two archetypes, and those archetypes seem to contain the majority of the issues that seem to come up in relation to gunslingers, both in power and action economy, so they tend to be blocked just to avoid frustration on all sides.


    Cheapy wrote:

    Banned classes in my last game:

  • Summoner
  • Rogue

    Altered classes: None, I don't think.

    Previous campaign Banned Classes:

  • Summoner
  • Any build that focused heavily on summons.

    Altered class from previous campaign:

  • Rogue with this modification.
  • You banned rogue? *Curious* Why? Would you allow an Archaeologist Bard to cover the sneaky skill character role?


    Cheapy wrote:

    Banned classes in my last game:

  • Summoner
  • Rogue

    Altered classes: None, I don't think.

    Previous campaign Banned Classes:

  • Summoner
  • Any build that focused heavily on summons.

    Altered class from previous campaign:

  • Rogue with this modification.
  • You banned the rogue? Can I ask why?

    Banned at our table:

    Ninja
    Samurai
    Gunslinger
    Summoner
    Alchemist
    Oracle

    We fear the creep...


    I have had very different players play Summoners and both were aggravating.

    One played the Brood Master archetype. He brought combat encounters to a crawl when it came to his turn. Even when he had everything streamlined it took him 3 times as long as everyone else on a good day. I admit I could have helped him along with this character better.

    Another played the Synthesist. He was a one man wrecking ball that could grapple everything. Only things with freedom of movement and other special abilities could escape. His AC and Str were at levels I could not fathom on a Player Character. 32 AC and 41 Str at 13th level. I remember checking his math and abilities with it working out correctly.

    I understand the Power Gamer Argument and I was able to circumvent it while still making it fun for the group. However he still out shined everyone in melee. And the abilities of the Synthesist make closing the gap on ranged no challenge.

    I dunno, maybe I made a mistake somewhere or could have better handled the situation. I'll be sure to re-re-re-read the summoner and his archetypes before I make a decision.

    The only class I may Alter is the Ninja, because going invisibly as a swift action is a little too cheap.


    Ssalarn wrote:

    I haven't had to completely ban too many classes, but it is well-established in my group that playing anything outside of the core book needs to be backed by proven experience and any appropriate FAQ's should be on hand (looking at you Synthesist Summoner). We usually manage to avoid having to boot classes by letting people know that they have to know their character, have to be able to complete a single turn in combat in 2 minutes or less, and have to have cards/ quick references on hand for any abilities/spells/summons with stats or complex effects.

    I would say summoner, gunslinger, some oracle builds, some monk builds have all been marked advanced players only for our group and are the closest to haing been banned. Synthesist is strongly discouraged all around, because even when everything relating to it is on hand someone still ends up feeling like they have to "double-check the math" or "make sure that's being applied right".

    We've talked about banning the Pistolero and Musket Master archetypes for the gunslinger as well, mainly because they're just so much better than the base class. There's virtually no reason to play a gunslinger who isn't one of those two archetypes, and those archetypes seem to contain the majority of the issues that seem to come up in relation to gunslingers, both in power and action economy, so they tend to be blocked just to avoid frustration on all sides.

    All very good points that I agree with. I might steal your 2 minute rule, I know a few players who like to 'Strategize' about everything.


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    My one nonnegotiable rule is "No distrustful loners."


    I'm usually against banning. Class, feat or (core) race.

    Even if I don't like the class, I usually let people play whatever they want.

    I've yet to see a Gunslinger, Ninja or Samurai come even close to break the game.

    The ninja is a rogue+. But that doesn't amount to much.

    Gunslinger is usually a "class cannon" and even if not, he is a ranged character that can't be further than 20ft from his target without sucking. 9 out of 10 times, an equally optimizaed archer has a higher DPR from a much larger distance. I see no reason at all to nerf the Gunslinger.

    Cavaliers/Samurai... I really don't know that they have that can be OP.

    Alchemist. I like them. I think this is as fairly well balanced class. Although the Vivisectionist/Beastmorph combo and its dozens of Sneak Attacks per round can be troublesome.

    I however have been thinking about banning the Synthesist, not 'cause it's too powerful, (IMHO, it's actually weaker than the vanilla Summoner) but because it's full of rules exceptions that are annoying to keep track of.

    Recently I've come to dislike the Spellbinder wizard archetype, as it steals much of the Sorcerer's thunder. Like wizards needed anymore versatility.

    I also banned Leadership. Again, not because of its (considerable) power, but more due to the fact that my gaming group can have up to 7 players, so adding even more characters will slow down the game too much.

    Shadow Lodge

    Exle wrote:
    My one nonnegotiable rule is "No distrustful loners."

    This. For me the issue is usually not the class but the character they are envisioning or the player wanting to turn the game from justice league team of super heroes into robin hood and his merry men with one character leading the show and having 3+ sidekicks or build this "lone wolf who works alone" schtick. My first 2 rules i give my players are that...

    1.) This group is hear to build friendships amongst the people at this table and to tell great stories.

    3.) Leave your problems at the door. This is a place where we come to relax and hang out with the people we care about as well as recharge for the week ahead. Please respect this want we do this to have fun not have another job, if you cannot leave it then channel it into your rp or some other part of game to make yours and everyone's experience better. If this is still a problem talk to your GM and see if we can find something to work this out.

    2.) Do not troll your party, if you are crafting a character, rp'ing your character, or conducting themselves in such a way as to inhibit the aforementioned intentionally or unintentionally you are destroying the most important portions of rule one. If this is unintentional it will be discussed with you in the hopes that it may cease if intentional or is not stopped then you will be ejected. Remember this is a place to make friends with others and for them to make friends with you, if you make friends through and emotionally relate to those you call friends through trolling then we really have no interest in you being here.


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    Reason for banning rogue: I'm mostly convinced that players choose rogue for the personality, when in reality, they can have a roguish personality with any class. It was an experiment, and it worked well. Note that I also introduced a trait that let people disable magic traps.


    I won't ban a class or race, but I have made a few 'tweaks' Like the Ratfolk's swarming works with all allies instead of just other ratfolk. And I gave a starting gold bump to Samurai (175 like Cavalier) because I can't fathom why they are poor compared to thier western kin.


    Vivisectionist alchemist. B/c cutting open a person while they are still alive just to study the function of internal organs in action is evil, and I banned evil alignments.


    Core classes and races only. My one exception is an alchemist, but only to try him out.

    I'm not against flavor or style, in fact, I encourage it. What I want to see is players using their imaginations, not relying on the APG and a particular "build" to get a lock on their opponents.


    I disagree there Owly, I find it limiting and more encouraging to stick to 'preset' builds when limited to core classes and races. Puts everyone in the same box IMHO. I'd much rather say "Here is a bunch of classes, and a bunch of races, go mix and match to your heart's content"

    My Catfolk Inquisitor is just as imaginative as anyone's plain jane human fighter. I'm not fond of powergamers true, but I don't want to handcuff my players to 'just' the core. Imagination works best unshackled.


    The first time I GM for a group, it is Core Classes only. It helps me get a sense of the players and keeps the flow at the table, ymmv.


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    I don't ban anything, but I discourage new/slow/inattentive/zoney players from playing anything that involves handling multiple creatures just for time concerns. If someone really wants to, they can, I just try to steer people in other directions. Similarly, if I feel like a player's build is really out of band power-level-wise then I urge them to play it down a little, but that rarely comes up.

    I never ban things based on "this doesn't feel right in this setting". I'd much rather see what a pirate ship paladin looks like than enforce There Are No Paladins On Pirate Ships. Allowing a ninja character in the frigid northlands campaign doesn't mean that the frigid northlands are crawling with ninjas, it just means that it's at least concievable that at least one character with ninja-style abilities ended up there somehow. (And that sort of thing is nearly always concievable.)


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    I don't have ailments in my game so so pc who pick them must instead pick 2 or 3 rules depinding on there class they can not break so a cleric of of a healing sun god might have something like this
    1can not cast darkness type spells
    2can not allow people to bleed out and must atemp to help them

    I find it better then "oh that evil you lose your smite "
    All so no more then 3 summons or pets for the party I am easy on witchs and wizards until they enter combat withere armord wand wielding monkey
    other then that it pretty much any thing goes


    I dont think I've ever just flat out banned a class. At the start of a campaign I do have a talk with my players. Longer for groups I havn't played with or gm'd much for, I tell them some of the generalities of the game they can expect plus any specifics they would know. I then ask them what they are all going to play.

    At this point in the talk I have on occasion said no to an outlier, only example that comes to mind is vetoing an old 3.5 necromancer several times between 2 players. They always argue that just cause it's a necromancer doesn't make it evil, and I always say "ok what do you think will happen in the first town you walk into with a competant city guard?" I let it go exactly twice in different games, and within the first 4 levels both parties ended up in a city, and questions were asked about "that big bloke in the back not speaking, eating, or sleeping" which eventually led to the necromancer versus the city.

    The second one actually made it to 11th level before the confrontation and put up a pretty good fight until the assasin in the party was hired to kill him. The assassin walked up to him calmly, rolled exceptionally high on a bluff check to put him at ease, and then proceeded to death attack him. One of the few times I have actually both allowed and instigated pvp at the table.

    Asta
    PSY


    Buy a child a toy, and they'll play in the cardboard box it came in.

    There is no more, or less, imagination in using more or less books. Imagination and its use has nothing to do with the amount of material allowed but rather in how the players use what they are allowed- whether that be alot or a little.

    -S


    Summoner gets banned. Channel energy gets replaced with either channel smite or turn/command undead. That's it for my game.

    Shadow Lodge

    When I DM it really depends on a few things. If it is PFS Im stuck with the PFS rules regardless of what I think. In home games basically the Asian and gun/sci-fi material in PF is unanimously disliked, so there is no point in banning it though we would if it bacame an issue.

    We alter the Rogue so that anyone with the right skills can find & fix traps, open locks, or the like.

    All classes except Druid and Wizard have 2+Int skill points for balance, and Rogues drop to 6+Int. This is bacause we like skills but hate that sometimes it mandates having certain classes in the game just to play. However Wizards already have high Int so that would be overkill and Druids are too good as is. We want them to have to pick betwen choices more than they do.

    I house rule that Metamagic Feats are uses per day that do not increase spell levels.

    Thee are more, but i cant think of them off hand.


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    I'd almost never ban any class (even thematic conflicts can be discussed with players and adapted to the game in a proper manner, assuming you are a competent DM). Also, all classes get a minimum of 4+Int skill points (with the possible exception of Wizard and other Int-dependent classes) as well as small tweaks here and there depending on what I don't happen to agree with.


    Mage Evolving wrote:
    Cheapy wrote:

    Banned classes in my last game:

  • Summoner
  • Rogue

    Altered classes: None, I don't think.

    Previous campaign Banned Classes:

  • Summoner
  • Any build that focused heavily on summons.

    Altered class from previous campaign:

  • Rogue with this modification.
  • You banned the rogue? Can I ask why?

    Banned at our table:

    Ninja
    Samurai
    Gunslinger
    Summoner
    Alchemist
    Oracle

    We fear the creep...

    I'd recommend allowing the Ninja, Samurai, and Oracle at least. The Ninja and Samurai(which no one plays) buff classes that seriously need the buffs in the first place. An oracle is just a weak cleric btw. The only two classes there I might consider banning is the alchemist and the summoner to be quite honest.

    eakratz wrote:
    Vivisectionist alchemist. B/c cutting open a person while they are still alive just to study the function of internal organs in action is evil, and I banned evil alignments.

    Not every vivisectionist is evil man.

    Owly wrote:

    Core classes and races only. My one exception is an alchemist, but only to try him out.

    I'm not against flavor or style, in fact, I encourage it. What I want to see is players using their imaginations, not relying on the APG and a particular "build" to get a lock on their opponents.

    Why not have everyone play commoners and let them be "creative"?

    Scarab Sages

    Copy Pasta'd from my house rules:

    Classes
    The Following Classes are BANNED outright: Ninja, Samurai, Summoner.

    1st Level Powers: Classes with 1st level powers usable a set number of times per day (usually 3+casting stat) can use these powers at-will.

    Paladin: Detect Evil functions per the modified Detect Evil spell.

    Cavalier: At 5th level, can replace the Mount Class feature with Weapon Bond, which functions as a Paladin's Divine Bond, but allowing the following abilities: Allying, Defending, Disruption, Ghost Touch, Keen, Menacing, Merciful, Mighty Cleaving, Speed, Throwing. Once replaced, the Cavalier cannot switch back to Mount. This is an (Ex) instead of an (Sp).
    --Cavalier's Charge can be made unmounted.

    Gunslinger: Revised firearm rules may change some Deeds.
    --Deadeye: Must be used to hit Touch AC in the 1st range increment. Costs 1 grit for the first 2 range increments.

    Rogue: Rogues can take a Ninja Trick instead of a Rogue Trick. Any Ninja Trick requiring 1 Ki-point to use can be used 1/day without a Ki-pool, but cannot be used if you have a Ki-pool and have 0 points remaining. Any Ninja Trick requiring more than 1 Ki-point to use requires a Ki-pool with a valid number of :Ki-points available to use (like a monk).

    Magus: Spellstrike can only be used with ‘offensive’ spells, not general spells like Light or Arcane Mark. What determines an ‘offensive’ spell is solely GM discretion. Spell Combat is not bound by this restriction, unless using Spellstrike as part of the Spell Combat action.

    Oracle: The Spellscar Mystery revelation “Eldritch Bolt” has its dice reduced to a 1d6 to be in line with the other oracle 3+CHA revelations.

    Arcane Archer: Can be any race.

    Scarab Sages

    I figure I'd explain WHY i banned the 3 i banned.

    Ninja & Samurai: I don't like oriental flavored classes or monsters. You will never see an Oni or any sort of Kami or what have you in my games other than a giant Kaiju monster or a mecha named Mr Roboto-san who says Domo Arigato alot.

    Summoner: Animal companions and normal summons drag the game enough. When you get a better than the fighter summon to use all day, its worse than the Psion spamming Astral Construct for every fight. Much of this hate comes from a druid PC I once had who took 10m to resolve his turn every round after 2 (companion, 1d3 summon, 1d4+1 summon, own attacks). Summoner is like the worst druid but all day long.


    archmagi, what if they flavored the ninja as a rogue, not playing up the ninja-qualities?


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    I have a house rule when it comes to any form of summoning.

    If you do not have the creature stated out, your spell fails automatically.

    Dark Archive

    Huh. I checked my own campaign rules and only have three:

    1) No summoners
    2) No evil PCs
    3) Any PvP must be concentual between both players

    I thought I had more but all the rest is just character design stuff.

    Scarab Sages

    Cheapy wrote:
    archmagi, what if they flavored the ninja as a rogue, not playing up the ninja-qualities?

    oh sweet, forums ate my post.

    It basically boils down to unless you take all rogue talents you still feel like a tv or movie ninja. Also, only 2 of their weapons beyond simple will ever drop as loot (long standing monk problem). Couple that with my home CS having no far east equivalent society, they just don't fit with my game.

    Liberty's Edge

    Modified:
    Cleric: Channel energy now both heals AND harms in one burst. This can be great in some situations, but not all. We view channel energy as the most raw expression of positive and negative energy possible, so it should act like it and (by default) have very little malleability. The ability is so limited compared to many other class abilities that we haven't felt any real power shift from it.

    Banned:
    Summoner: We tried, multiple times, to allow this, but it never works out. Even paying close attention to the rules, every eidolon came out feeling too overpowering to the point of disruption.

    The above two are pretty much the only modifications we consistently make, though others might occur where it seems appropriate. Most of the time we just modify the flavor of abilities if we modify them at all (different appearance, same rules).


    StabbittyDoom wrote:

    Modified:

    Cleric: Channel energy now both heals AND harms in one burst. This can be great in some situations, but not all. We view channel energy as the most raw expression of positive and negative energy possible, so it should act like it and (by default) have very little malleability. The ability is so limited compared to many other class abilities that we haven't felt any real power shift from it.

    Banned:
    Summoner: We tried, multiple times, to allow this, but it never works out. Even paying close attention to the rules, every eidolon came out feeling too overpowering to the point of disruption.

    The above two are pretty much the only modifications we consistently make, though others might occur where it seems appropriate. Most of the time we just modify the flavor of abilities if we modify them at all (different appearance, same rules).

    That's how the beta Channel Energy was, but after the playtest, they changed it since it was a bit too good. Something about necromancers being walking heal/bombers.


    Banned: Summoner - I just don't like them

    Cleric - I have never been a fan of the cleric as written and they do not fit my setting very well. Cleric is more of a role playing option. There are a few traits and feats which can provide limited access to some of the cleric powers. These can be taken by most spell casting classes.

    Monk/Ninja/Samauri - None of these work well with the setting (a mashup of Greek and Roman influences)

    Modified: Wizard - The wizard/cleric spell list is combined. If a spell is on both lists it will typically be cast at the higher level.


    0a) Disregard the fluff presented with the class in general. If a class has abilities you like, the fluff can be altered to make it fit a concept.

    1) I've rolled the Qigong Monk into the base class, and allow them to learn any number of powers off of scrolls or from monks who know the power like a wizard (using Knowledge skills in place of Spellcraft - the knowledge skill is dependent on the specific scroll.) To keep this from getting out of hand, Monk scrolls are treated as being 10x their actual price when determining availability. I may put a cap on the number of powers known, but it will be more than one.

    2) Ninja can replace their weapon proficiencies for the Rogue list. I don't like the idea that players are trapped in a weak option just because they want a particular flavor.

    3) No Pack Lords, Broodmasters, or Master Summoners. Still learning the VTT, and I don't want the headache.

    4) As a Synthesist, your Eidolon's ability scores DO NOT allow you to qualify for feats. I actually really like the flavors the Synthesist allows (see rule 0a), but it does need a heavy tweak to keep min-maxing from getting out of hand. (I also seriously wasn't aware until recently that this wasn't how it actually works)

    Liberty's Edge

    Our campaign is lower magic, high fantasy with influences from Tolkien, George Martin, Conan the barbarian books, and a smattering from Robert Jordan. The technology level is similar to 7th to 9th century Europe and there is little to no 'eastern' influence. Most of the core classes are fine, but some of the magic classes do not fit the flavor of the campaign.

    Most archetypes are allowed except for a few that do not fit the flavor of the campaign.

    Not Allowed:
    Gunslinger (no guns at this technology level)
    Monk, Ninja, Samurai (no oriental influences in this campaign)

    NPC Only:
    Alchemist (the way the class is built does not fit the campaign, but the flavor is good for a NPC)
    Magus (the concept of a warrior mage does not fit the campaign)
    Oracle (the concept does not fit for PCs, but is great for an NPC)
    Summoner (too powerful at low level; potential huge action economy issues; not worth the pain)
    Witch (flavor fits campaign for evil NPCs, but not PCs)

    Changes:
    Orisons/Cantrips: No longer unlimited. Castings per day equal spells per day for 0-level x2.
    Clerics/Paladin: We are using the variant channel option from the AGP.

    Other:
    Alignment: No Chaotic Neutral or Evil alignment. They end up being excuses for party conflict and lack of teamwork.
    Character Concept: No lone wolfs, dark-cloaked strangers, mentally unstable crazies, or ultra-honorable-willing-to-sacrifice-oneself-for-every-menial-cause paladins.


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    wow a lot of games i would not play in.....
    the idea for cutting that much out of the game is so foreign


    Kyras Ausks wrote:

    wow a lot of games i would not play in.....

    the idea for cutting that much out of the game is so foreign

    Same. I'm one of those who not only allows everything as written but typically happily adds more at player request, be it 3.5 converts or 3pp stuff.

    The one thing I've ever cut was removed guns and Gunslingers from my Kingmaker game since it was set pre-blackpowder age in my setting's timeline; in my other game that's further down the timeline anything goes.

    Grand Lodge

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    Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    ArmosD49 wrote:

    I was wondering if any other GM's Ban or Alter any of the official Paizo classes? If so, why? Also instead of Banning do you Alter the Classes to tone them down or up? Do you Ban any archetypes or multiclasses?

    I am seriously considering banning the Summoner and definitely banning the Synthesist Archetype.

    I just wanted to get other GM's Opinions.

    It depends on the world I'm running. Virtually anything other than Fighter or Rogue can be subject to banning depending on the setting that I'm running. Classes that remain are subject to modification again depending on the setting. if it's the Hykranian Age of Conan, or the Gothic Earth of Living Death, than expect lots of things in the banning and modification areas.

    The important thing to remember is that what you leave out of your worlds defines them almost as much as what you put in. Golarion as it should be noted does not have everything.

    You want to make those two changes to your campaign? Go Ahead. Any change you wish to make is perfectly legitimized by the fact that you are the GM. You do not need message board vindication to justify your decisions. All you need are clear reasons in your own head and a full knowledge of what you are doing.


    it is cool to hear how others play and there reason for it.
    i like to think it makes me a better DM to know how some other DM might handle something.


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    Anti-paladins: In too many cases they just don't work well with others, not with that alignment restriction and class flavor.

    Gunslingers and Firearm Archetypes: Depends on the campaign, I allowed them in my Carrion Crown (with modified treasure) and homebrew, but I am not allowing them in Rise of the Runelords. (I feel the average touch AC may be a bit on the low end in this AP what with the giants and all. If I'm wrong I don't think my players will really be angry/care)

    I take no issue with summoners since my players who do attempt them are good at thinking ahead of their turn and keeping track of their stuff. If a player attempts a dump-stated Synthesist I will come down on them like a ton of rectangular building things. Otherwise I am fine with a Synthesist.

    Ever since I made the mistake of allowing the Vow of Poverty Warmage I had to deal with in my old War of the Burning Sky campaign I've edged more towards making judgement calls on a case by case basis. I don't like across the board bans and make it clear to my players that ludicrous cheese will be dealt with, but that I'm not opposed to powerful characters.

    I don't have any major problems with Ninja or Samurai, I just expect my players to not play them as explicitly oriental. Ninja's are just a different sort of Rogue and Samurai are a less team oriented Cavalier. It's not like an NPC will go up to one of the PCs and ask him his class only to be mystified as to what a Samurai is or be confused as to the meaning of Iaijutsu Strike. He is simply a warrior who excels at a specialized form of combat.


    [sarcasm]Humans and NPC classes only. Everything else is banned. [/sarcasm]

    But really, I tend to go far beyond what anyone else would allow, even going so far as to throw in some 3rd party stuff and every race in the ARG (minus the Svirfneblin). The only thing I don't allow is 3.5 as I find it mixes badly with Pathfinder (Either too far beyond what Pathfinder assumes or simply not being up to snuff).


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    I don't ban any classes. The only class that might get banned is the Synthesis, but not because I think it is OP, but because of all the rules exceptions, and I don't want to spend table time saying "you can't do that".

    As far as the ninja and samurai, I would never ban a class based on flavor. Flavor can be changed. I often use rangers as my "ninjas" so banning a ninja would never stop me from playing one.


    Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

    The only class banned in our game is the Gunslinger, for flavor reasons.


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    When I made my map with FT3, I ended up with one giant body of water with a lot of islands in it, so that entire area sort of became my Asian area where all the dragon empire stuff fits.

    The beauty of making your own world is the ability to modify it when a player wants to play something that doesn't fit.


    Currently ...

    No summoners ... I find that they alter challenge levels of encounters more than I like

    No advanced firearms

    No evil alignments ... I like the idea of heroic campaigns

    No leadership feat

    Everything else is case by case but pretty much all else is ok


    For my current campaign, all the changes done to create the setting I have in mind with a couple to make certain classes a bit more desirable. I'm strongly tempted to just mix the rogue and ninja into one class somehow, but haven't figured out how to do it in a way that feels right.

    Allowed Classes and Changes:

    - Alchemist
    - Bard (Charisma or Wisdom for Casting/Relevant Abilities)
    - Cavalier (Renamed Knight)
    - Cleric (Renamed Templar, Charisma or Wisdom for Casting/Relevant Abilities)
    - Dragon Rider (Renamed Dragon Knight, Use 'Drakes' not true blooded dragons, http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/dragon rider)
    - Druid (Renamed Geomancer, Charisma or Wisdom for Casting/Relevant Abilities)
    - Fighter (Gain 2 good saves, 4 skill points a level)
    - Gunslinger (Renamed Machinist, no advanced firearms)
    - Magister (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/s/magister)
    - Inquisitor (Loses detect evil and gains bonus feat instead that level, Charisma or Wisdom for Casting/Relevant Abilities)
    - Magus (Renamed Rune Knight, No 'spellbook' but still learn spells the same way from scrolls, Charisma or Wisdom for Casting/Relevant Abilities)
    - Monk (Charisma or Wisdom for Ki Pool/Relevant Abilities)
    - Ninja (Charisma or Wisdom for Ki Pool/Relevant Abilities)
    - Oracle (Also called Priest/Priestess, Charisma or Wisdom for Casting/Relevant Abilities)
    - Paladin (Renamed Holy Knight, Allowed to be LG/LN/NG alignments, Smite Evil functions only against certain creature types instead of 'evil' creatures, loses detect evil and a gains bonus feat instead that level, Charisma or Wisdom for Casting/Relevant Abilities)
    - Ranger (Charisma or Wisdom for Casting/Relevant Abilities)
    - Rogue (Gain 2 good saves)
    - Samurai
    - Sorcerer (Renamed Mage, Charisma or Wisdom for Casting/Relevant Abilities)
    - Summoner (Charisma or Wisdom for Casting/Relevant Abilities)
    - Warmaster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/war-m aster)
    - Witch (Renamed Mystic, Charisma or Wisdom for Casting/Relevant Abilities)
    - Witch Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/witch -hunter)
    - Wizard (Renamed Onmyoji, Uses Onmyoji archetype, Native to Islands of Kaidan)

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