Ok I have a player in my game who uses a heavy repeating crossbow who asked me to come up with a cost on a magic item.
He wants to enchant the clips for his repeater (which are considered their own items) so that whenever he loads them (each clip only holds 5 bolts) the bolts that come out of it would be + 1 Flaming, maybe another clip so the bolts loaded into it would become +1 Shocking etc. He wants to be able to change out clips depending on what he needs. When the clip runs out of bolts all he has to do is reload it and those bolts also gain the benefit when shot also.
I was wondering if I should just charge him as if each of these were a +2 weapon enhancement (8,000 gp plus the cost of the clip and such)or should the price be something different.
Thoughts? Ideas? A breakdown of price would be great if you think differently.
That is easy: pay for 5bolts of flaming, 5bolts of shocking etc. :D
As for your idea:
It should be doable since enchanting two Xbows would be similar to enchanting two Clips that bestowed thier magic upon the bolts.
Example:
XBow-1 is +1 Flaming and costs 8000gp
Xbow-2 is +1 Shocking and costs 8000gp
Now: we substitute Clips for Xbows. However, the Xbow that the clips are attached to would not be able to have any enchantment upon it without overriding the clips (if stronger than the clips).
Since switching clips is a full round action that provokes there is no real difference from switching regular Xbows.
Switching:
Xbow-1 for Xbow-2 = Move Action to put away Xbow-1 (provokes) and a Move action to draw Xbow-2 (does not provoke).
Clip exchange = Full-Round Action (provokes)
Thus: no benefit for the clips being magic instead of the Xbow. However, this is not in the rules anywhere and so would be a house rule. I am just suggesting how you could run your idea.
- Gauss
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I'm not sure what these should cost, but 8,000 seems a little low.
These are not +2 weapons. They are devices that generate +2 weapons, albeit disposable ones. At 8,000 bolts they pay for themselves within 50 bolts (or a little more if you're recovering magic ammo). Depending on level and fighting style, that could easily be just 4 combats (4-5 rounds of BAB 6 + Rapid Shot = 3 bolts a round).
Why exactly can't he just buy magical ammo?
Weirdo: Ultimately he is using two different +2 (Effective) Crossbows. That is why I discussed switching.
This is clearly in house rule territory though.
Just a note: the Magic Item Compendium had a quiver of energy. Price was 15,000gp. Short version: The quiver held 20arrows or bolts and was keyed to one energy type.
Reason for 15,000gp? It stacked with anything and everything else except maybe its own energy type (grey area).
In this case it is just like he is using two +2 weapons but instead of the weapon itself it is the clip that is +2. Note: Crossbows impart their magic upon the bolts so there is no difference here.
I would take this one step further though. The magic of the clips should suppress any magic that any of the bolts have.
Example: +1 flaming clip with a +1 Bane bolt. The Bane bolt would be suppressed and only have +1 flaming.
- Gauss
There was a quiver from the 3.5 days that allowed you to pull 20 arrows per day that were enchanted with one elemental effect that someone may be able to link to as a guide. (I think it was called Elemental Quiver)
Otherwise the clips could be a wondrous item that casts a version of GMW/Flame Arrow once per day for 5 arrows at a time that adds both a +1 and an elemental effect. I would put it at about 3K if it only does 5 bolts per day or about 10K if it is unlimited as long as it is reloaded.
They don't generate magical ammo, they imbue the ammo with the magical properties of the clip, just as the crossbow normally would. It's no different than simply having two magical weapons. Except two magical weapons would be better in the long run for an extended fight.
Why? Simply really, I could have 30 fully loaded clips. That means if I had two weapons, I could have 150 +1 Flaming bolts or 150 +1 Shocking bolts.
If I instead had two magical clips, it means I've got to take time to refill the Flaming Clip every time it runs out of bolts. I'm not sure how long that is supposed to take, but I'd hazard a guess at a standard action.
In the long run, it's more efficient to have two magical weapons than two magical clips.
Exactly my thinking Tels.
- Gauss
I agree with Tels and Gauss here. The benefit over two separate +2 crossbows is negligible to non-existent, so just price the clips as you would a normal magic crossbow, and let the magic stack the way it normally would.
I was thinking you should say the magic shouldn't overlap with the magic from both the crossbow and the bolt (+1 flaming clip, +1 shock crossbow, +1 bane arrow = +1 flaming shock bane), but I haven't checked the math to see how bad it'd actually be.
Edit: I guess the simple solution is to say the crossbow is specially made (but comes free with the first clip).
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I was under the impression that the bolts enhanced by the clip were going to stack with the crossbow in the same way that magic ammo normally would. That is to say, if you had a +3 seeking crossbow and a +1 flaming clip, you'd be shooting +3 seeking flaming bolts. Under this circumstance, the clip is not acting as a +1 flaming crossbow because you cannot stack a +1 flaming crossbow with a +3 seeking crossbow. The ability to stack adds value.
Now: we substitute Clips for Xbows. However, the Xbow that the clips are attached to would not be able to have any enchantment upon it without overriding the clips (if stronger than the clips).
Missed this assumption because I started my response before Gauss posted. Apologies for the confusion.
If the clips do not stack with a magic crossbow, then yes, you do effectively have two magic crossbows and 8,000 is perfectly appropriate.
Ok maybe I should explain some more.
Eventually he wants to have his repeating crossbow be enchanted up to +5. Now when he puts in one clip the arrows fired with it would gain the flaming quality, another clip would grant the shocking quality etc. Kindof how when you have a +3 bow but fire a +1 flaming arrow what you get is a +3 flaming arrow.
The idea is instead of buying tons of magic bolts he can have 1 clip foe each effect he wants and then load that into the repeating crossbow. A clip only holds 5 shots in it and with multipul attacks per turn that can run down fast. It is a full round action to reload a clip if I remember correctly too. I was wondering if I should treat the clip like a wonderous item or as another weapon in itself or some combo between the two. I was trying to come up with a fair price for him.
He is trying to get infinite use consumables that stack? Price goes up. 15,000gp as I said earlier (3.5's Quiver of Energy. Holds 20bolts Note: energy type is set permanently)
- Gauss
He is trying to get infinite use consumables that stack? Price goes up. 15,000gp as I said earlier (3.5's Quiver of Energy. Holds 20bolts Note: energy type is set permanently)
- Gauss
Well that is the whole idea, arrows and bolts are supposed to have their effects stack. Notice I say effects I did not say anything about +'s. A +3 Flaming bow shooting a +2 shock arrow will end up being a +3 flaming and shocking arrow.
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No, the enhancement bonus doesn't stack, but the flaming property does, and stacking a flaming property onto a magic crossbow is worth more than buying a second crossbow with the flaming property.
Gauss has found a 3.5 item that does exactly what you're describing (add an energy property to ammunition it holds), which is a very good starting point. The action it takes to reload a clip is something he'll have to expend whether he's using a magical or nonmagical clip, so that shouldn't make a significant difference to what unlimited energy ammunition is going to be worth to him. You might offer him a slight discount due to the fact that due to the reload time he'll be using fewer shots per combat than a bow user, but it wouldn't be enough to drop the price from 15,000 to 8,000 gold.
EDIT: And I'm not even sure I'd give any discount. Reload time is just part of the deal with using a crossbow - magic crossbows aren't any cheaper than magic longbows just because they get fewer shots per combat.
Banecrow:
(Note: prices are for magic properties only, does not include masterwork or base weapon costs.)
Setup 1:
+3 Flaming Crossbow = 32,000gp
Setup 2:
+3 Crossbow = 18,000gp
+1 Flaming Clip = 8,000gp (using your initial pricing suggestion)
Result: 26,000gp...6,000gp cheaper.
Setup 3:
+3 Crossbow = 18,000gp
Quiver of Energy (Flaming) = 15,000gp
Result: 33,000gp....1,000gp more expensive
I would not recommend Setup 2. It is too cheap for what it does. This is just the costs and does not include the fact that the various setups also allow you to stack things further (except perhaps Setup 3, I dont have my 3.5 MIC in front of me at the moment).
- Gauss
There were also the weapon crystals from 3.5. I don't remember how those were priced though.
So the clips are made with weapon properties and no bonuses... Let's see...
A +1 flaming crossbow would be 8k (6k for the flaming). A +2 would be 18k (10k for the flaming). A +3 would be 32k (14k for the flaming). +4 is 50k (18k). And +5 is 72k (22k). So a +1 property on an otherwise straight-bonus weapon is 2k + 4k per weapon bonus. The question is where is the balance point here for disassociating it from the weapon itself. Before that point, it'll be cheaper to buy the normal weapon. Afterwards, it'll be cheaper to buy the clips.
Considering 1d6 fire damage is usually not considered particularly powerful, I wouldn't set the bar too high. After a certain level, it may be cheaper, but it might also be weaker for other reasons.
Going by character level, if you take 10th to be the balance point, then they'd have about 15-16k to spend on a weapon, which means that they'd normally be getting a +2 or so weapon at this point (if they splurge a bit). That means that they've spent 10k to gain that extra bonus, which means pricing the clip at 10k (at least for the +1 properties) would be fair (assuming you accept 10th level as the balance point).
If you go with the 15k as per the energy quiver, that's more like the 14k extra for a +3 weapon, which would set the balance point around level 12 or 13.
Edit: Ninja'd.