Just got my PDF and had a quick flick through, does it seem to anybody else that it's VERY possible for the players to lose the Shard of Envy?
Creative Director
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Just got my PDF and had a quick flick through, does it seem to anybody else that it's VERY possible for the players to lose the Shard of Envy?
** spoiler omitted **
Best way to handle this is to have him drop the shard on the ground as he's pulled away. It's not perfect, but if you do something like let the PCs make a last second grab for it, or if you simply have the portal/doors close on his arm so it chops that off while he had the shard in his hand... that's a pretty cool end to it all.
Chances of that kind of end coming around SHOULD be pretty remote, though... the adventure's built so that there's a LOT of "safetys" in place to prevent such a development... but if it happens, simply having the shard stay behind as the only remnant of Ardathanatus is kinda cool.
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I think, if that happened, I'd have Ardathanatus' body dragged away with the shard. Moments later, the shard (and only the shard) gets spat back out into Golarion, leaving the players guessing as to whether Yamasoth wants them to have it or whether it couldn't be transported or the magics weren't compatible with Sekatar Seraktis or whatever. I'm very fond of leaving my players guessing and making up their own minds about the nebulous motives of antagonists.
Okay, am I the only one who reads the title of this module... and then the concept of the Doomsday Door and thinks of that episode of The Real Ghostbusters? It's called Knock, Knock.
Subway tunnel excavators uncover a mysterious ancient door buried far beneath New York City. Upon the door is a demonic face that intones, with an echoing voice:
"Do Not Open Until Doomsday!"
Of course, its dire warning is ignored. Bad things are behind the door.
I love that episode.
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I noticed that Ardathanatus does not have Heavy Armor Proficiency. Since clerics do not gain that as starting feats, his attack bonus should be significantly lower. Which feat would you trade out for this one, or am I missing something?
Oops...
Either his Improved Initiative or Weapon Focus feat should be swapped out for Heavy Armor Proficiency. Improved Initiative is less impactful to the stats, so that's my suggestion.
Okay, am I the only one who reads the title of this module... and then the concept of the Doomsday Door and thinks of that episode of The Real Ghostbusters? It's called Knock, Knock.
Subway tunnel excavators uncover a mysterious ancient door buried far beneath New York City. Upon the door is a demonic face that intones, with an echoing voice:
"Do Not Open Until Doomsday!"
Of course, its dire warning is ignored. Bad things are behind the door.
I love that episode.
OMG I also had this flash back, I just couldn't recall which episode it was! I read through it briefly, I try to scan all new material, were not in this adventure yet, so were safe.
As for the crystal, its a magic item, its possible it would just drop, would appear on its own. If they miss it, I would have a animal companion save it, or a npc , over all its what ever feels good to you as a gm, and not to clique with your group.
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I am not very expirienced with high level play (to me, 14th is very high) so my judgment may be skewd here, but Ardathanatus seems like a TPK waiting to happen.... this guy is PACKED with awesome.
He is indeed intended to be a pretty tough fight... ESPECIALLY for parties who don't stop along the way to the bottom of the dungeon to recruit a lot of friends and allies to help in the fight to come.
ok i'm missing something, how does he get the proficiency with halberd?
ok i'm missing something, how does he get the proficiency with halberd?
It's the favored weapon of Yamasoth.
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I thought about it for a bit, and decided to rule it like this:
"There is no creature capable of crossing the entire Abyss in it's life time"
since there are creatures (like Qlippoth) who existed from the beginning of the multiverse, that would hint that
"Even a creature moving at the speed of light since the beginning of time and space didn't manage to cross the abyss yet".
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I have a great interest in tracking down a sound file of a possible song coming from Windsong Abbey to play while the players explore...
Well, look what I found! Complete with sound file and all.
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I am reading the article on the Qlippoth, and I saw a mention that the Abyss is so big that it can be considerd infinte.
I don't get this. Is it infinite or not? Is it's size constant?
Look at it this way:
The Material Plane encompasses a region as large as the universe—the Material Plane essentially IS the universe. AKA: The universe we all live in.
The Material Plane is contained within a shell of layered elemental planes (going from the inside out: air, water, earth, fire).
That sphere of elemental planes is itself contained at the center of the outer sphere (which is the Astral Plane). And the inner surface of the outer sphere is where the outer planes are.
The Abyss is an outer plane that winds through the "ground" of that outer sphere.
So, imagine a peach buried at the center of a mile-wide sphere of dirt. The pit of that peach (which should actually be a lot smaller, like the size of a grain of sand) is the Material Plane encased in the elemental planes; the pulp of the peach is the Astral Plane, and the peach's skin/rind is the surface on which the outer planes are located (on the inside of it). The ground radiating out from the buried peach is the stratum through which the realms of the Abyss wind. That sphere is finite (it's a mile across), but compared to the grain of sand at the center of the peach that represents the entire known universe... the Abyss is so incredibly huge that it might as well be infinite. Even though it's not.
ok i'm missing something, how does he get the proficiency with halberd?It's the favored weapon of Yamasoth.
Curious, The Elf didn't start out as a follower of Yamasoth. He was a follower of Pharasma, yes?
So question then: Let's say a cleric is a follower of Desna, (or some other diety that has a favored weapon that the cleric class doesn't normally have access to) and then changes religion like this fellow.
Now I always assumed the favored diety weapon came from training up as a cleric of that faith. Just like learning how to use all martial weapons was learned as one became a fighter.
But If he leaves one faith and joins another, how does he gain the new proficiency and there by lose the old one? Ie can he no longer use a star knife efficiently, but suddenly gains the full working knowledge of the spiked chain?
OR does he retain the proficiency of starknife, a weapon he has always used, as spends some time (and possibly a feat) the learn the new favored weapon?
Essentially, is the proficiency divine knowledge granted like spells? Or is it training?
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That's a good question... I have never thought of that... I would think that to explain the change, the weapon no longer "feels" right. Like losing inspiration, and gaining the inspiration to feel comfortable with the new weapon.
Though I am curious what was originally intended?
I would consider that take feasible, I never really thought of it either, which made me ask the question :>
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Creative Director
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Curious, The Elf didn't start out as a follower of Yamasoth. He was a follower of Pharasma, yes?
So question then: Let's say a cleric is a follower of Desna, (or some other diety that has a favored weapon that the cleric class doesn't normally have access to) and then changes religion like this fellow.
Now I always assumed the favored diety weapon came from training up as a cleric of that faith. Just like learning how to use all martial weapons was learned as one became a fighter.
But If he leaves one faith and joins another, how does he gain the new proficiency and there by lose the old one? Ie can he no longer use a star knife efficiently, but suddenly gains the full working knowledge of the spiked chain?
OR does he retain the proficiency of starknife, a weapon he has always used, as spends some time (and possibly a feat) the learn the new favored weapon?
Essentially, is the proficiency divine knowledge granted like spells? Or is it training?
That's a part of the game that's not really covered by the core rules, but I don't have a problem having a cleric's bonus weapon proficiency get swapped out as part of the process when you switch faiths. Just think of it as part of the whole "learning a new religion" thing—if you can abandon one deity for another, there's no reason you can't abandon one feat for another. Whether it's divinely granted or trained.
(Of course, if you want specific rules for retraining feats for PCs, you'll have to hold on a bit longer for Ultimate Campaign—it's my understanding that there'll be some rules for that in there as well.)
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Creative Director
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That's a good question... I have never thought of that... I would think that to explain the change, the weapon no longer "feels" right. Like losing inspiration, and gaining the inspiration to feel comfortable with the new weapon.
Though I am curious what was originally intended?
What's originally intended is that when he switched religions, he lost his old proficiency and gained the new one.
Reading the stats for the cleric of Zon Kuthon, who is LN, with apparently the ability to channel Positive Energy -- is this a mistake? According to the CRB, neutral clerics of an evil deity still have to channel negative energy.
Reading the stats for the cleric of Zon Kuthon, who is LN, with apparently the ability to channel Positive Energy -- is this a mistake? According to the CRB, neutral clerics of an evil deity still have to channel negative energy.
Yeah, just reached that part of the adventure and wondered the same thing myself, especially since one of my PCs wants to take Gein Kafog as a cohort. Perhaps he can channel positive energy since he's a heretic of Zon-Kuthon's faith instead of a true cleric of the Midnight Lord?
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Reading the stats for the cleric of Zon Kuthon, who is LN, with apparently the ability to channel Positive Energy -- is this a mistake? According to the CRB, neutral clerics of an evil deity still have to channel negative energy.
He can channel positive energy; it's not a mistake, although it DOES go against what the Core Rulebook says. If you want this cleric to comply with the Core Rulebook, that's fine and it's an easy change to make, but in the development of the adventure, I felt it made sense for the character and his near heretical take on his religion to support that heresy by bending the rules.
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Reading the stats for the cleric of Zon Kuthon, who is LN, with apparently the ability to channel Positive Energy -- is this a mistake? According to the CRB, neutral clerics of an evil deity still have to channel negative energy.He can channel positive energy; it's not a mistake, although it DOES go against what the Core Rulebook says. If you want this cleric to comply with the Core Rulebook, that's fine and it's an easy change to make, but in the development of the adventure, I felt it made sense for the character and his near heretical take on his religion to support that heresy by bending the rules.
That cleric just went from incredibly interesting to even more incredibly interesting. :)
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Looking at the maps for this and the previous adventures. IS the scale on the maps correct? 1 square = 10feet makes the dungeon huge in size! Doors alone are 8 feet wide, makes sense in part 5 but not in the parts up to now.
The scale is indeed correct. That said, the size of the doors is somewhat exaggerated so that you can see them—it's better to have large and obvious doors, in my opinion. If you're mapping the dungeon out with 5-foot-squares, you can make them normal width for Medium creatures if you want...
...but remember, many Thassilonian ruins are built big. Many were built by giants, after all.
My group polymorphed Ardathanatos into a frog right in front of the doors, then beat on the frog until it died (they never picked up on any clues that he might be redeemable, and frankly would probably not have done it even if they had). Then the door opened and Yamasoth picked Ardathanatos up and took him away. Oops. We had to retcon this as it was clearly not an acceptable outcome.
My player really disliked the door-opening scenario. If there had been some hint that Ardathanatos' death was a tactical problem (as opposed to a moral problem) it would have helped, but we didn't encounter any. So it's just two rounds of "there's nothing you can do, you lose" plus a side dish of "you're too low level for this scenario." I think it came close to ending the campaign.
This scenario reminded me of "The Infernal Syndrome" from Council of Thieves (no spoilers here I hope) in that the module would be more interesting if the PCs took it very slowly and looked at everything carefully, but there are a lot of internal cues that there is time pressure--my player picked up on those early and played it as a do-or-die run. So the PCs went up two levels in one day, plus they never had time to really look at things, plus they skipped as much as they possibly could. As a result much of the really neat stuff in the module didn't get any chance to be neat. It was frustrating. I'm not sure what's to be done about this.
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We very rarely actually put really hard time limits on our adventures, and if you know that your players are prone to picking up on those types of things, it's really important for you as the GM to work against the players' expectations. When you notice them interpreting events such that they feel that they're on a hard time limit... don't be afraid to simply tell them flat out "you're not on a hard time limit, you know." It can certainly break immersion to do this, I suppose... but if the other option is remaining silent and then letting the players miss out on some content you'd really been hoping they'd pick up on, it's a small price to pay.
How can Ardathanatus be caught by Yashamoth (in the event he dies or loses consciousness) when he has freedom of movement on himself?
It's the abyss baby. Law doesn't apply there.
Yeah i got something along the lines as well, mine was "since Yasamoth gives him the ability to cast the spell he can dismiss it even if the spell isn't dismissable" kinda like pulling the plug on the spell.
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Managing Creative Director (Starfinder)
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There is a ring of spell storing in area C2 that has a Breath of Life and Cure Light Wounds in it. So this would make it a major spell storing ring, which sells for 200,000 gp.
Is this correct, or should it just be a regular spell storing and drop the cure light wounds? :)
I could imagine the final encounter (among others) getting very cramped if you use 5-foot squares. Same thing for the tombs' mummies (E10), or the drake lair E1. Before this, the part of the abbey with the ettins (A15) may also be too tight for them.
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Disturbingly Koriah Azmeren is an 11th level ranger with no ranks in survival. I think that's got to be right up there with clerics who have no ranks in knowledge: religion or druids with no ranks in knowledge: nature.
Oh well, if she levels she'll make up for that oversight by allocating new skill points to fill the obvious gaps (she's also a spellcaster with no ranks in spellcraft).
In fairness, in the Underdark, where she specializes, there is only so much ranks in survival can do for a person.
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So my players just had the meeting with Kandamereus, the encounter with the stone golems and the fight against Adrathanatus. Despite the vision, the diary and some hints, when they got the chance to try to redeem Adrathanatus they just killed him* (or tried to). It did not help they had Kandamereus there who tried Insanity and Adrathanatus rolled a 1. Then the Fighter (who looks like Sorshen), kept trying to non-lethally slap Adrathanatus, who - due to the rules of confusion/insanity - had to attack the fighter. Poor Addy could not hit, except with a 16 on his Primary attack.
* he actually stabilised at -13 constitution. The players had 3 hours to bring the cleric back to life or lose her forever, so they teleported out after looting Adrathanatus and leaving him at the foot of the Doomsday Door.
I had started to think about him coming back later, but then I realised Kandamereus needs a new undead minion. (Thereby both denying Yamasoth Adrathanatus's Soul, and snubbing Pharasma by raising one of her ex-clerics to undeath).
The players were rather diplomatic to Kandamereus, but then when facing 13 mummies, everyone gets real non-aggressive. The first Mummy they saw, had his head cocked to one side. When they saw it again with it's 12 buddies, Kandamereus told them "you must forgive him: 10,000 years will give you such a crick in the neck".
My players have written to several churches and told the Silver Crusade about the big group of Mummies under Windsong. After they got the shard they basically immediately headed off. I might have to write something up for that later.
A question regarding Koriah Azmeren's knowledge of Windsong Abbey:
How much does she know of the dungeon below the Abbey?
Her father obviously knows the layout of the first level (Areas B) and a bit of the second level (he knows about the secret stash in C2), but I can't remember to have read what Koriah knows of that dungeon.
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Reading the stats for the cleric of Zon Kuthon, who is LN, with apparently the ability to channel Positive Energy -- is this a mistake? According to the CRB, neutral clerics of an evil deity still have to channel negative energy.He can channel positive energy; it's not a mistake, although it DOES go against what the Core Rulebook says. If you want this cleric to comply with the Core Rulebook, that's fine and it's an easy change to make, but in the development of the adventure, I felt it made sense for the character and his near heretical take on his religion to support that heresy by bending the rules.
Does this mean he should also have the ability to swap out spells for cure spells instead of inflict spells? I ask because I'm grabbing him as a cohort as well - I actually had Jasper with me from the second book, but the GM decided he should stay behind at the abbey!
Does this mean he should also have the ability to swap out spells for cure spells instead of inflict spells? I ask because I'm grabbing him as a cohort as well - I actually had Jasper with me from the second book, but the GM decided he should stay behind at the abbey!Reading the stats for the cleric of Zon Kuthon, who is LN, with apparently the ability to channel Positive Energy -- is this a mistake? According to the CRB, neutral clerics of an evil deity still have to channel negative energy.He can channel positive energy; it's not a mistake, although it DOES go against what the Core Rulebook says. If you want this cleric to comply with the Core Rulebook, that's fine and it's an easy change to make, but in the development of the adventure, I felt it made sense for the character and his near heretical take on his religion to support that heresy by bending the rules.
Think about it. Ol' Z-K wants living subjects able to feel every scrap of delicious pain while being almost indescribably maimed and tortured. Repeatedly. Often in as many new ways as they can think up on the fly. Can't do that very well if they just up and DIE on you.
Anyone have a stat block for the portal refocus ritual?