There are, per JJ, no plans for mature content books from Paizo, but 3PP can do whatever they want. BED and BVD are completely different beasts, however, and I'm not sure how those would be handled.
There's honestly enough 3pp 3e-3.5 "mature" material floating around out there, that if you wanted those kinds of game mechanics, you could find them and convert them to PF pretty easily, and nobody gets their IP dirty.
If you're going that route, I recommend the Book of Erotic Fantasy over the others. The content is at least presented in as tasteful a manner as you're likely to find from these kinds of books, artwork aside.
... My guess is in RoW.I beg your pardon but what is RoW?
Reign of Winter, AP starting up in February.
Only the cool kids know the acronyms of adventure paths that are 6 months from even being released...
Anything like BoEF plan to be released? Or just some of the feats in it plan to be brought back? Some of the feats could be traits.
As far as I understand no, there are no plans. I believe JJ went so far as to say Paizo did not want to be associated with such content.
EDIT 3PP cannot even publish such content while using the Pathfinder Compatibility License, so we're unlikely to see the material from any other publishers any time soon.
There's honestly enough 3pp 3e-3.5 "mature" material floating around out there, that if you wanted those kinds of game mechanics, you could find them and convert them to PF pretty easily, and nobody gets their IP dirty.
If you're going that route, I recommend the Book of Erotic Fantasy over the others. The content is at least presented in as tasteful a manner as you're likely to find from these kinds of books, artwork aside.
I agree, you could easily convert them without waiting to see if Pathfinder would make them, which I doupt they would do. I bought mine when it came out and there was a HUGE controversy over it. Media taking a bash at roleplaying games in general and saying the typical things anti-roleplayers say.
I do agree that the artwork and a lot of the mechanics are quite tasteful and well done, as well as a guide of what creatures can cross-breed and what ones can't, but I often ignore that bit and go for BB (Bastards and Bloodlines) when it comes to that. Eitherway, certainly more tasteful than other books, though I forget about the book I was thinking of.
Here's a link to an older thread covering BoEF conversion to PFRPG. Subsequent discussions cover other related products as well.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
There's honestly enough 3pp 3e-3.5 "mature" material floating around out there, that if you wanted those kinds of game mechanics, you could find them and convert them to PF pretty easily, and nobody gets their IP dirty.
If you're going that route, I recommend the Book of Erotic Fantasy over the others. The content is at least presented in as tasteful a manner as you're likely to find from these kinds of books, artwork aside.
I agree, you could easily convert them without waiting to see if Pathfinder would make them, which I doupt they would do. I bought mine when it came out and there was a HUGE controversy over it. Media taking a bash at roleplaying games in general and saying the typical things anti-roleplayers say.
I do agree that the artwork and a lot of the mechanics are quite tasteful and well done, as well as a guide of what creatures can cross-breed and what ones can't, but I often ignore that bit and go for BB (Bastards and Bloodlines) when it comes to that. Eitherway, certainly more tasteful than other books, though I forget about the book I was thinking of.
I'm not completely sure on what words are and aren't allowed on this forum, so I apologize if some things are oddly self-censored.
I've glanced over several "mature" themed books, but the only 2 books I've really sat down with were the Book of Erotic Fantasy(which I bought for my wife as a wedding gift), and Nymphology: Blue Magic or something, I can't recall if that's the specific name.
Nymphology came across as though it were written by 12 year-olds just hitting puberty, in my opinion. It was like one big book of d**k and fart jokes making the whole theme just more uncomfortable and immature. "Here's an item that lets you see b**bs! Here's a spell that makes b**bs bigger! Here's a spell that gives people b**bs!" I'm a pretty liberated guy when it comes to sexuality, and even I was embarrassed to read much further in this book.
The Book of Erotic Fantasy covers many adult themes above and beyond basic mating and sexualized parts of anatomy. It covers breeding pairs and likelihood of conception, chances of race mixing between demi-human species, etc. One part I got a lot of use out of, explicitly detailed how D&D races view relationships and partnering, for example what Elves and Orcs typically look for in a mate, how they treat them, issues like love, children, etc. Of course this book has chapters full of raunchiness, but it at least feels like an adult wrote it.
These two books alone cover most of what adult themes could possibly enter a game, and there should be little to no issue converting them up to Pathfinder.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The issue with 'mature' products is that, as you say, they read like they were written by 12 year olds. I would add to that, some rather read like they were inspired by 50 cent romance novels.
In all likeihood, they probably were. Most of them are quite puerile.
If you want to handle mature topics maturely, do you need a manual to tell you how? If you do, you might not find mature content, but juvenility pretending to be mature.
I have never seen one that made me feel like I'd be comfortable in a game with anyone that owned the book for unironic reasons.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I own the The Book of Erotic Fantasy and at least from my point of view the book handles its subject in a mature way. Although some of the art is kind of corny. I think that most the bad rap that it gets is from people just opening the pages looking at the art and passing judgment on that.
Some of the comics in the book are very funny and the one in the last page on Rules Lawyers is a classic.
The issue with 'mature' products is that, as you say, they read like they were written by 12 year olds. I would add to that, some rather read like they were inspired by 50 cent romance novels.
In all likeihood, they probably were. Most of them are quite puerile.
If you want to handle mature topics maturely, do you need a manual to tell you how? If you do, you might not find mature content, but juvenility pretending to be mature.
I have never seen one that made me feel like I'd be comfortable in a game with anyone that owned the book for unironic reasons.
Different strokes for different folks I guess. Pun intended.
I've only ever really used the fluff text, like I mentioned above regarding relationships, children, etc. I've never used feats, classes, etc out of BoEF. I've not done the math myself, but the actual mechanics have gotten a lot of bad reviews.
I own the The Book of Erotic Fantasy and at least from my point of view the book handles its subject in a mature way. Although some of the art is kind of corny. I think that most the bad rap that it gets is from people just opening the pages looking at the art and passing judgment on that.
Some of the comics in the book are very funny and the one in the last page on Rules Lawyers is a classic.
Pretty much the same thing I've seen. People see "ooh! a RPG book about sex! That's yucky and gross and childish and makes me feel funny" and quickly dismiss it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you need a manual to handle erotica in your games, you and your group are probably not ready to do so.
My thoughts exactly.
Pretty much the same thing I've seen. People see "ooh! a RPG book about sex! That's yucky and gross and childish and makes me feel funny" and quickly dismiss it.I own the The Book of Erotic Fantasy and at least from my point of view the book handles its subject in a mature way. Although some of the art is kind of corny. I think that most the bad rap that it gets is from people just opening the pages looking at the art and passing judgment on that.
Some of the comics in the book are very funny and the one in the last page on Rules Lawyers is a classic.
Dismissing people who think it is immature as prudes is quite childish in itself, regardless whether the appraisal is correct.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you need a manual to handle erotica in your games, you and your group are probably not ready to do so.My thoughts exactly.
And why is this? It's a complex part of life. Some groups choose to include it, many don't. Your gaming groups don't find use for it, and that's fine. But to make such a heavy-handed generalization is unnecessarily condescending.
Am I being "immature" if I'm running a game with my wife, and we choose to use these rules? We have children together, we have *gasp* sex, maybe she and I wish to add these real-life aspects to our RPG characters, since we share a lot of experience in those fields?
Nobody is saying you shouldn't.
Nobody is saying you shouldn't.
Huh?
If you need a manual to handle erotica in your games, you and your group are probably not ready to do so.My thoughts exactly.
So you're just in agreeance that my wife and I aren't mature enough to handle it, despite lots of real life experience with the subject matter therein...
I just look at books like this as just another rules supplement, take them or leave them. Heck, I'm a 3.5e fanatic, and I didn't care much for Book of 9 Swords. I simply choose not to use it, not pass judgement on those that do.
On an slightly unrelated tangent, why are books about killing, mutilation, devils, and demons, etc all passe, but books that deal with love, relationships, and procreation looked down on so readily? Sure Nymphology was written completely tongue in cheek and more for humor, but BoEF does address some mature topics in a tasteful way.
The point is: If you want erotica in your game, do you need mechanics for it? What does that do for you?
You can have erotica in your game if all players involved are fine with that (and seriously, do make sure beforehand; I've had some bad experiences when players or worse, the GM, decided to introduce it without warning).
It's beyond erotica though. If all the book covered was erotica, it'd have a lot fewer pages. Mating, relationships, offspring, etc can all play a role. Maybe a powerful Noble wishes a sire?
Maybe a player wants to use methods of interrogation and espionage to infiltrate an enemy faction, instead of just Fireballing and Power-Attacking their way through hordes of minions? Think a much more R-rated Black Widow of The Avengers.
I consider the knee-jerk reaction of instant-violence to achieve goals a lot less mature than using wiles and wits. Both are fun though, not trying to take anything away from that.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think the thread was intended to dig up mechanics that are often skipped over (race/creature reproduction cycles, relationship expectations of non-human races, and so on) in favor of additional combat options. Race anatomy, personality, and customs are social issues and should not be divided up into sexual issues just to hamper another group's play style.
It seems I have had the opposite reaction to two of the books named in this thread, specifically the Book of Erotic Fantasy and Nymphology.
I found the BoEF uncomfortable to read. While some of the writing on love and relationships for the various races were good, most of it seem like an excuse for the author to air his BDSM habits. The artwork (mostly photo-shopped pictures) just increased my suspicions. Now, I have no idea if that is true or not, it is just the impression the book made to me when I read it.
Nymphology on the other hand had a very light and fun feeling. Some other posters mention that BoEF had a more serious take on the subject, and that's true, but I really don't think sex is that serious a subject. Sure there are serious aspects, procreation, marriage and (unfortunately) rape, but in general sex should be fun and this book encourages that.
The internet is (arguably) the greatest human invention of all time. It allows everyone with access to communicate almost instantly with everyone else anywhere in the world. The amount of sheer information is staggering and truly can not be comprehended. And what is one of the most common (if not THE most common) uses for it?
It is incomprehensible to me that wizards in particular, and all other spell casters in general, have not figured out some way to use magic for sex.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Some of us have been more hurt than others. Be careful before you declare that everyone should be open and comfortable about sex in games.
Maturity and interest in sex in games are not necessarily correlated.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Oh, a note on the rules aspects. Neither books seem really well balanced on the rules. I personally wouldn't use any of them. The only real purpose for these books (IMHO) is to give ideas for how you might handle the fluff part of things.
Why would Elves marry Humans and what are their views on love and relationships? What might happen if the barbarian wants to go "wenching"? It is good, thought provoking stuff.
There was an illusionist in a game I played that made good money by putting on elaborate shows of a rather explicit nature. He eventually got into serious trouble when he decided to add the unpopular, but quite beautiful, queen to his cast of characters. None of the party's efforts to undermine the queen's rule upset her to the extent that the illusionist's "Royal Show" did. He suddenly found that the bounty on his head was more than twice the bounty for everyone else combined.
Some of us have been more hurt than others. Be careful before you declare that everyone should be open and comfortable about sex in games.
Maturity and interest in sex in games are not necessarily correlated.
Absolutely true. The vast majority of games I have been in have never even touched on the subject. But in a few others the players enjoyed adding a bit of sex, or just sexual tension, to the game. It was never anything explicit. Usually it was just an incidental thing or at most a subplot. I personally would not be interested in a game where sex was a primary focus no mater how maturely it was handled.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Some of us have been more hurt than others. Be careful before you declare that everyone should be open and comfortable about sex in games.
Maturity and interest in sex in games are not necessarily correlated.
I absolutely agree. 100%. This kind of game is NOT for everyone. Calling it niche is an understatement. But for those rare groups/players/DM's who can handle it, we should be able to do so without instantly being looked down on or called immature, or thought of as weirdos, etc. Not saying you specifically did, I just mean in general.
Trust and comfort in your group is HUGE for incorporating anything along these themes. I do not feel that any group should include any aspect of "mature" books if someone, anyone, at the table is not comfortable or cannot, or will not handle it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Some of us have been more hurt than others. Be careful before you declare that everyone should be open and comfortable about [violence] in games.
Maturity and interest in [violence] in games are not necessarily correlated.
The irony of one being more taboo over the other whereas resorting with one of those as a means to an end can actually make you come across less mature than the other.
As always, gauge accordingly the trust and comfort zone of the group you're gaming with: both sex and violence.
Dude, not cool.
Did we at any point start saying that?
|
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
I believe we're in the vicinity of the "eviscerated guts = OK, female nipples = SHEER BLOODY PANIC" problem. Thanks Americans, for ruining this for all of us normal people.
Hey now, I'm a red-blooded citizen of the USA and I can honestly say I for one am not responsible for ruining anything. I much prefer viewing female nipples to eviscerated guts. ;P
I believe we're in the vicinity of the "eviscerated guts = OK, female nipples = SHEER BLOODY PANIC" problem. Thanks Americans, for ruining this for all of us normal people.Hey now, I'm a red-blooded citizen of the USA and I can honestly say I for one am not responsible for ruining anything. I much prefer viewing female nipples to eviscerated guts. ;P
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I believe we're in the vicinity of the "eviscerated guts = OK, female nipples = SHEER BLOODY PANIC" problem. Thanks Americans, for ruining this for all of us normal people.Hey now, I'm a red-blooded citizen of the USA and I can honestly say I for one am not responsible for ruining anything. I much prefer viewing female nipples to eviscerated guts. ;P
Not sure how my joke could relate to your desire to not raise kids in this country. From my perspective we in this country are WAY too prudish about a lot of things. My tongue-firmly-in-cheek comment, while true, was intended to remind Gorbacz, and anyone else reading, that not everyone is as prudish as the stereotype.
|
Paizo Published Materials already covers wide swath of mature content, there is rape, prostitution, murder, discrimination/racism, gruesome killing, bondage, unimaginable horrific torture,you name it, hell even good clean normal person sex is in there somewhere!
It's more a matter of taste that most of they leave the conceptualization aspect up to the GM and their respective group of players.
If you're talking about the mechanical aspect of Mature content, well Paizo already has rules for torture and nearly an inexhaustible swath of rules directed at killing.
So really I'm little confused at the need, unless what is being requested is a rules guidline for how to role 3d6 and determine, "volume of ejaculate" or something else suitably silly. In which case I daresay there is already a RPG system built just for you...
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I am truly amazed at how demon worshiping, murder, slavery, bloody revolutions and devil worshiping nations are OK. But sex, a normal and healthy part of our lives is considered taboo in our make believe games. Must be an American thing.
Not sure how my joke could relate to your desire to not raise kids in this country. From my perspective we in this country are WAY too prudish about a lot of things. My tongue-firmly-in-cheek comment, while true, was intended to remind Gorbacz, and anyone else reading, that not everyone is as prudish as the stereotype.I believe we're in the vicinity of the "eviscerated guts = OK, female nipples = SHEER BLOODY PANIC" problem. Thanks Americans, for ruining this for all of us normal people.Hey now, I'm a red-blooded citizen of the USA and I can honestly say I for one am not responsible for ruining anything. I much prefer viewing female nipples to eviscerated guts. ;P
I was seconding your opinion...albeit in a roundabout way...
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Reading this thread drives home one thing in particular:
Any such book must not only be written with actual maturity, it must also be written with a modicum of empathy for the potential reader and those it discusses.
I'd be hardpressed to really consider the BoVD truly mature, especially with its focus on "gross-out" evil and lumping people with kinks into the same group as rapists and soul traffickers. The book didn't really have much understanding of the people it was evoking.
GMs and players a like would do well to keep some empathy for their fellow players in mind too. It really isn't asking too much to respect comfort zones and trigger issues.
Must be an American thing.
It feels like it is. Several years back, one of the groups I frequented had two exchange students (German, Irish); one of the locals actually walked out during a session after the Irish girl's PC indulged in some unexpected-yet-completely-in-character antics. I wish to Cthulhu that I could remember exactly what happened, but that's just it: at the time it was so tame that only one out of six gave a s&%@. I asked the DM what happened with the guy and he just laughed it off and said something along the lines of, "yeah, we can't even use the word 'sex' around [name], he'll flip you know, so we just flap our arms and yell STORK-STORK-STORK!"...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
GMs and players a like would do well to keep some empathy for their fellow players in mind too. It really isn't asking too much to respect comfort zones and trigger issues.
A million times this.
If someone says they're not comfortable with a certain level of something or another, don't prance around calling them names for not being tough enough or whatever to tolerate it.
As before, some of us have been hurt. It's a real issue and it doesn't deserve the kind of snide dismissal as prudishness I see in this very thread.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Must be an American thing.It feels like it is. Several years back, one of the groups I frequented had two exchange students (German, Irish); one of the locals actually walked out during a session after the Irish girl's PC indulged in some unexpected-yet-completely-in-character antics. I wish to Cthulhu that I could remember exactly what happened, but that's just it: at the time it was so tame that only one out of six gave a s*##. I asked the DM what happened with the guy and he just laughed it off and said something along the lines of, "yeah, we can't even use the word 'sex' around [name], he'll flip you know, so we just flap our arms and yell STORK-STORK-STORK!"...
How would you feel if you later learned that the player that walked out on these antics had suffered sexual abuse and was experiencing resurfacing trauma due to the triggers presented by the players?