** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **Paizo definitely pushed the envelope when it comes to sexual situations. There are some really horrific things (some sexual) in Rise of the Runelords, and I just read a part of Shards of Sin that has some pretty damn disturbing sexual stuff going on. (Not that I object!)Shards of Sin? Hmm maybe I missed it but I don't recall reading anything like that. The only things i remember is the pretty heavily hinted at torture and experimentation going on.Ok I can see where you got that,
** spoiler omitted **
Yeah like I said, i can see how you can read it that way. When i read it, I just thought it meant something else.
We can agree that it is left to the DM/GM's (and players') imagination/interpretations.
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I was wondering if Pathfinder had any books that resembled the Book of Erotic Fantasy, Book of Exalted Deeds, and Book of Vile Darkness in content nature. And sure Book of Erotic fantasy is meant to introduce sex in your campaigns, it still had some non-sexual stuff that kind of made sense to have in your game. Like some of the feats and the Appearance attribute. Plus I liked how it gave somewhat a psychological evaluation to some races. But any rate, I was wondering if there are Pathfinder OGL books that bring to the table that these books brought. If not, is there a possibility we could see a reprint of these books like The Tome of Horrors Complete Edition?
Uhm . . .
no.
I don't know if anyone would dare touch the subject of sex again in D&D because Religion has turned it into a great mystery. :P although, I could be wrong.
At least, people RPing sex, ERP, do it without rules.
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I suppose that I am in the camp of, "Do we really need rules for that?" I too generally treat things like that as "Deus Ex Machina" unless the game specifically calls for it. For example, when I was running a Cyberpunk 2020 game (Who cares if it has 80's senabilities? I still freaking LOVE that game!) where the characters were investigating a murder of a recording mogul and one of the character's discovered that the victim died becuase he was squeezing into suffocation during sex with a woman. In the interest of good taste I won't go into details here but that level of "maturity" fit the Cyberpunk 2020 theme and I was with a group of players who knew all about sex (we were all married) and I asked the players if there was any objections (because two of the players were women and I didn't want to make them feel uneasy).
Point being is that I don't think we need books on rules for sex (and all that other "mature" stuff) because (despite the stereotype people have of gamers) most of us know what it is and aren't fascinated by the "taboo" of it all. At least that is the opinion of this LIBERTARIAN American!*
*Just a friendly "ribbing" there, Gorbacz. It was all in good humor!
I suppose that I am in the camp of, "Do we really need rules for that?" I too generally treat things like that as "Deus Ex Machina" unless the game specifically calls for it. For example, when I was running a Cyberpunk 2020 game (Who cares if it has 80's senabilities? I still freaking LOVE that game!) where the characters were investigating a murder of a recording mogul and one of the character's discovered that the victim died becuase he was squeezing into suffocation during sex with a woman. In the interest of good taste I won't go into details here but that level of "maturity" fit the Cyberpunk 2020 theme and I was with a group of players who knew all about sex (we were all married) and I asked the players if there was any objections (because two of the players were women and I didn't want to make them feel uneasy).
Point being is that I don't think we need books on rules for sex (and all that other "mature" stuff) because (despite the stereotype people have of gamers) most of us know what it is and aren't fascinated by the "taboo" of it all. At least that is the opinion of this LIBERTARIAN American!**Just a friendly "ribbing" there, Gorbacz. It was all in good humor!
BoEF doesn't really have that much rules for having sex, they did have more rules about the consequences of having sex (pregnancy, STDs, the guy/girl that clings to you, etc...)
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BoEF doesn't really have that much rules for having sex, they did have more rules about the consequences of having sex (pregnancy, STDs, the guy/girl that clings to you, etc...)I suppose that I am in the camp of, "Do we really need rules for that?" I too generally treat things like that as "Deus Ex Machina" unless the game specifically calls for it. For example, when I was running a Cyberpunk 2020 game (Who cares if it has 80's senabilities? I still freaking LOVE that game!) where the characters were investigating a murder of a recording mogul and one of the character's discovered that the victim died becuase he was squeezing into suffocation during sex with a woman. In the interest of good taste I won't go into details here but that level of "maturity" fit the Cyberpunk 2020 theme and I was with a group of players who knew all about sex (we were all married) and I asked the players if there was any objections (because two of the players were women and I didn't want to make them feel uneasy).
Point being is that I don't think we need books on rules for sex (and all that other "mature" stuff) because (despite the stereotype people have of gamers) most of us know what it is and aren't fascinated by the "taboo" of it all. At least that is the opinion of this LIBERTARIAN American!**Just a friendly "ribbing" there, Gorbacz. It was all in good humor!
Well, do we really need rules for consequences sex? We should ALL what they are and those situation can be role-played!
Well, do we really need rules for consequences sex? We should ALL what they are and those situation can be role-played!BoEF doesn't really have that much rules for having sex, they did have more rules about the consequences of having sex (pregnancy, STDs, the guy/girl that clings to you, etc...)I suppose that I am in the camp of, "Do we really need rules for that?" I too generally treat things like that as "Deus Ex Machina" unless the game specifically calls for it. For example, when I was running a Cyberpunk 2020 game (Who cares if it has 80's senabilities? I still freaking LOVE that game!) where the characters were investigating a murder of a recording mogul and one of the character's discovered that the victim died becuase he was squeezing into suffocation during sex with a woman. In the interest of good taste I won't go into details here but that level of "maturity" fit the Cyberpunk 2020 theme and I was with a group of players who knew all about sex (we were all married) and I asked the players if there was any objections (because two of the players were women and I didn't want to make them feel uneasy).
Point being is that I don't think we need books on rules for sex (and all that other "mature" stuff) because (despite the stereotype people have of gamers) most of us know what it is and aren't fascinated by the "taboo" of it all. At least that is the opinion of this LIBERTARIAN American!**Just a friendly "ribbing" there, Gorbacz. It was all in good humor!
I don't disagree with you (still the game mechniques parts had some merits, depending on one needs)
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I don't disagree with you (still the game mechniques parts had some merits, depending on one needs)Well, do we really need rules for consequences sex? We should ALL what they are and those situation can be role-played!BoEF doesn't really have that much rules for having sex, they did have more rules about the consequences of having sex (pregnancy, STDs, the guy/girl that clings to you, etc...)I suppose that I am in the camp of, "Do we really need rules for that?" I too generally treat things like that as "Deus Ex Machina" unless the game specifically calls for it. For example, when I was running a Cyberpunk 2020 game (Who cares if it has 80's senabilities? I still freaking LOVE that game!) where the characters were investigating a murder of a recording mogul and one of the character's discovered that the victim died becuase he was squeezing into suffocation during sex with a woman. In the interest of good taste I won't go into details here but that level of "maturity" fit the Cyberpunk 2020 theme and I was with a group of players who knew all about sex (we were all married) and I asked the players if there was any objections (because two of the players were women and I didn't want to make them feel uneasy).
Point being is that I don't think we need books on rules for sex (and all that other "mature" stuff) because (despite the stereotype people have of gamers) most of us know what it is and aren't fascinated by the "taboo" of it all. At least that is the opinion of this LIBERTARIAN American!**Just a friendly "ribbing" there, Gorbacz. It was all in good humor!
Well to each thier own and that's cool! I suppose that, for me, it is better to keep the "Mature" stuff in the background and leave it that [Valeros: "So I have brought the wench back with me to my room. I roll my Diplomacy to see if I can conveince her to stay the night (Valeros' player rolls a "Natural 20") GM: Well Valeros has convinced the serving wench to stay the night with him and the two of you spend the night 'doing what couples do'. Ezren, What is your character doing?"]
Well to each thier own and that's cool! I suppose that, for me, it is better to keep the "Mature" stuff in the background and leave it that [Valeros: "So I have brought the wench back with me to my room. I roll my Diplomacy to see if I can conveince her to stay the night (Valeros' player rolls a "Natural 20") GM: Well Valeros has convinced the serving wench to stay the night with him and the two of you spend the night 'doing what couples do'. Ezren, What is your character doing?"
Devious GM rolls for a pregnancy check in the background. Assuming this happens at level 2, the GM waits until Valeros is level 12 in the campaign or until a more appropriate time(as long as 9 months have passed in game). The GM springs the so called wench as a fully fleshed out NPC with back story on the poor Valeros.
The possibilities are limitless. She wants the father to meet the baby, or use the baby to extort the PC. Or maybe even BBEG kidnaps the baby. Any group that enjoys the role play aspect of the game will jump on it due to the potential drama and tension. All while keeping the explicit parts in the background.
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Well to each thier own and that's cool! I suppose that, for me, it is better to keep the "Mature" stuff in the background and leave it that [Valeros: "So I have brought the wench back with me to my room. I roll my Diplomacy to see if I can conveince her to stay the night (Valeros' player rolls a "Natural 20") GM: Well Valeros has convinced the serving wench to stay the night with him and the two of you spend the night 'doing what couples do'. Ezren, What is your character doing?"Devious GM rolls for a pregnancy check in the background. Assuming this happens at level 2, the GM waits until Valeros is level 12 in the campaign or until a more appropriate time(as long as 9 months have passed in game). The GM springs the so called wench as a fully fleshed out NPC with back story on the poor Valeros.
The possibilities are limitless. She wants the father to meet the baby, or use the baby to extort the PC. Or maybe even BBEG kidnaps the baby. Any group that enjoys the role play aspect of the game will jump on it due to the potential drama and tension. All while keeping the explicit parts in the background.
Arslanxelan, I don't know who you are but I like you! You have given me inspiration! Thank you so much!
I don't know if anyone would dare touch the subject of sex again in D&D because Religion has turned it into a great mystery. :P although, I could be wrong.
I... I... what?
If you mean the witch-hunt type paranoia scare, that was originally by non-Religious groups (plus irreligious media hype) that was spun into semi-religious mania by protective parents and conservative leaders due to misinformation.
I myself am a very strong conservative Christian, and avid D&D player (although it's turned more into Pathfinder, now). Granted, a number of my (equally conservative) family members would find that somewhat scandalous, but that's mostly due to life-long ingrained misinformation that's really hard to shed, mostly because it's a difficult topic for them to accept.
As far as Religion turning sex into a great mystery... I dunno. I mean, Judaism has Song of Solomon/Song of Songs (and speaks rather clearly about sexual relations between people, family, and strangers - details I won't go into - before and after that book), and Christianity's New Testament speaks about sexual relations (although it's more glancing - it treats it more as a topic than a "here's a historical reference").
India has the Kama Sutra, ancient mythology and religion had sex deities a plenty, while modern religions have many of their own interpretations on sexuality (for example).
Now, if you mean that a local cultural interpretation of Religion has turned sex into a great mystery... I guess that's automatically true (it also really depends on what you mean be "mystery").
Point being: I don't know if this is what you meant or not, but religion is not antithetical to sexuality. Pretty much any inclusive Religion, as far as I can tell, has room for sexuality within it, though certain sub-facets of specific religions (like certain sects* of Christianity, to cite a popular local one here in the States) do turn it into a mystery, mostly by following the disjointed culture that we hold.
*
At least, people RPing sex, ERP, do it without rules.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you more questions: "what is 'ERP'?" and "Did you make that pun on purpose?"
:)
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If you mean the witch-hunt type paranoia scare, that was originally by non-Religious groups (plus irreligious media hype) that was spun into semi-religious mania by protective parents and conservative leaders due to misinformation.
I myself am a very strong conservative Christian, and avid D&D player (although it's turned more into Pathfinder, now). Granted, a number of my (equally conservative) family members would find that somewhat scandalous, but that's mostly due to life-long ingrained misinformation that's really hard to shed, mostly because it's a difficult topic for them to accept....
[thread hijack] Whereas I don't consider myself a conservative (I am a registered Libertarian), I am a Christian and I too find it amazing the amount of misinformation hysteria that does go through (at least here in the U.S.A.) our churches. One of the families from our church who's played with our granddaughter all of the time suddenly said that we weren't worthy of being with their children because I am a Freemason and our whole family deserves to burn in Hell... Unless either I shun Masonry or my wife leaves me! [/thread hijack]
Point was... Yeah misinformation supported by even more misinformation leads to "witch hunts" that you speak of.
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I don't know if anyone would dare touch the subject of sex again in D&D because Religion has turned it into a great mystery. :P although, I could be wrong.I... I... what?
If you mean the witch-hunt type paranoia scare, that was originally by non-Religious groups (plus irreligious media hype) that was spun into semi-religious mania by protective parents and conservative leaders due to misinformation.
I would rather point to Christian teachings that condemed sexuality together with women blaming women for the original sin and source of sinful lust in males.
Prior to spread and domination of Christianity in Europe attitudes toward sexuality were healthier than afterwards. It took the Christianity lots of time to back off of some of the worst of their teachings but the harm was done and western civilization is still recovering from stigmata associated with sex and sexuality.
I had a pregnancy in a game I ran once. The results were... mixed. Long story short. The player agreed to my suggestion that the lustful sorceress get pregnant by a shapechanger and then later said I forced the idea on him. He then tried to abort the pregnancy by jumping off the roof of the tavern.
Two spoilers for side-conversations and to avoid threadjacking for others, and a decent related-point post beneath them!
I don't know if anyone would dare touch the subject of sex again in D&D because Religion has turned it into a great mystery. :P although, I could be wrong.I... I... what?
If you mean the witch-hunt type paranoia scare, that was originally by non-Religious groups (plus irreligious media hype) that was spun into semi-religious mania by protective parents and conservative leaders due to misinformation.
I would rather point to Christian teachings that condemed sexuality together with women blaming women for the original sin and source of sinful lust in males.
Prior to spread and domination of Christianity in Europe attitudes toward sexuality were healthier than afterwards. It took the Christianity lots of time to back off of some of the worst of their teachings but the harm was done and western civilization is still recovering from stigmata associated with sex and sexuality.
Drejk, it seems from your post that you and I will likely forever disagree strongly on "Christianity"'s definition and view of sexuality (also the healthiness and general perception of sexuality in general - ancient Rome went through numerous different phases of conservative/prudish followed by lewd/lascivious and back again, and mocked and/or persecuted those who disagreed with them, just as an example).
(Worth noting: it was Jewish teachings first, Eve was not actually the ultimate sinner - that was Adam who listened to Eve, when she was deceived by the Serpent -, and you're arguing about the influence of a powerful sub-culture and sect as opposed to the broad set of actual beliefs espoused within the basic teachings.)
"Christian" teachings (as a broad category) never condemned sexuality in general: specific sub-sects of Christianity did (and interpreted broader Christian teaching in ways that did so), however, and many of those gained power and prestige over time, due to cultural shift and inclination. But, given human nature, some (but by no means all) of those who supposedly condemned certain elements of sexuality engaged in those very acts themselves. Similarly, to pull another religion, Hinduism has its groups and sects that specifically reject sexuality, as does most any religious-type group. Further, purely secular people (those without any religious affiliation) have prudish or lascivious attitudes, and healthy and unhealthy levels and styles of sexual thought - I've spoken with people on all sides of the issue.
In short, you're blaming a religious affiliation for a cultural shift which, while in part accurate, also distorts the base religious affiliation's views.
There is a difference in how males and females are treated, in Biblical teachings and history, but many of those reflect cultural norms, and many passages often pointed out seeming to uphold sexist or restrictive views are instead targeting specific problems in a local area: and I do mean "problems", such as a given church losing the ability to reach out and speak to those who did not believe because their lifestyle was too libertine for the surrounding non-Christian populous to listen too, as is in the case of the oft-quoted Corinthians passages.
Christianity itself was often moved forward due to, of all things, powerful women asserting their influence within a local culture, as a single example.
I'd go on (the relationship between Christianity and the abolition of slavery, equal rights, and the like, opposed to the abuses of Christianity to turn passages that clearly argue for one thing into something else), but this isn't really the place for such discussion.
Your problem isn't with Christianity, it's with specific expressions of Christianity. Blaming "Christians" and "Christian teaching" in general because there are people who are Christians who dislike sex and sexuality and hold unhealthy views about it is like blaming my whole family, because there are people in my family who still thing D&D has something to do with the Devil (and can and would point to the literal ability to summon the Devil in D&D as proof), despite the fact that I, personally, play Dungeons and Dragons. It's not honest, and it smacks of the same over-generalized and misinformed bias used by the people that you claim are "the problem".
In our games, the gamut has been run from blatant, powerful sexuality, to simply implied interest, to completely different altogether.
In one game, there was a half-elf paladin who looked at sexuality and promiscuity as a necessity, to keep up the numbers at their citadel-city on the border of an evil wasteland, facing a slowly-dying population if they did not (they had a rather advanced system of tattoos to ensure a lack of inbreeding and note their familial heritage).
In another game, there was some severe consternation within a neutral good family when it was implied that one of their daughters might have been somewhat interested in a man who'd had "premarital" relations with others, and would not object to them (except on the grounds that said family would object).
In one game, a couple decided to "do things right" and wait until marriage (and the whole ceremonial thing in a church and all) before sex; while another took their vows to each other in the dead of night, by themselves, while they were in the middle of intercourse; and another decided never to get married to anyone, but may well have been exclusive (or not - it was highly negotiable) to each other for the rest of their life (the campaign didn't go that long). The first couple was lawful good/chaotic good, the second was neutral good/chaotic good, and last couple was lawful good/chaotic good. Extremely differing views, all of which were good.
Speaking of 4E, in one game, the lawful good paladin of Bahamut was homosexual, the unaligned rogue was bisexual, and the chaotic evil cleric of Orcus was heterosexual - none of those really defined any of their character traits, it was simply who they were. On the other hand, there was the chaotic evil bisexual half-elf warlock, the unaligned heterosexual half-elf warlock, and the lawful good bisexual warlock in another game (still 4E), all of which were involved with each other - again, none of those defined them as people, but they were traits of those individuals. The majority of out games tend to presume a hetero-normative society, but that doesn't reflect on the nature of individuals, good or evil (or otherwise), so much as are simply elements of their character.
We've had plots revolving around pregnancies and abortions v. carrying to term, diseases and their (difficult) cures (probably the most embarrassing way to get lycanthrope - and the bestiality jokes haunted said player later), potential rape, and other serious issues relating to sexual activity, and we've had sex in games that generate none of those. We've excised sex entirely in some games.
The one unifying factor: always playing to the group expectations/wants/needs. Making it fun and relevant to those who are around the table. Adjust your games for your (current) group, and make things comfortable for all at the table, because that's ultimately what's needed.
The NPC: that's... a terrible story. :(
Forlarren: sounds interesting. :)
The NPC: that's... a terrible story. :(
Well, that player was later banished by the group. Also, the child that resulted from it was adopted by the group cleric who's form the shapechanger (A demon) had taken. The sorceress was later found dead and desiccated after a bought of time travel.
Also, in that same game a human eldritch horror became pregnant. She didn't have to but decided to keep the pregnancy to torment the father. The whole process unhinged her even more than she already was.
Both children became characters in the campaign after that one.
The NPC: that's... a neat story! :)
The NPC: that's... a neat story! :)
Thanks :) Also interesting the father who laid with the human shaped eldritch horror was also the priest who adopted the sorceress's child.
There was also the Eldritch Horror's child's birth which involved a fired crossbow to cut the umbilical cord and the rogue got a natural 20.
The way I see it, sex and violence are both normal, natural, and necessary parts of the human condition-- and have their rightful place being celebrated in our fantasies. That said, I am simply not interested in enduring a game that goes into excessive detail with either-- I don't want to hear about the orc slowly bleeding to death any more than I want to hear about the elf and the barmaid arguing over who has to sleep in the wet spot.
And I also don't want to fixate on the most diseased expressions of sex and violence. It's fine that torture and slavery and prostitution and rape exist in the game world, and it's fine that characters have them in their backstories. I just don't want them to occur on-screen. I don't want to have to describe them, and I don't want to listen to someone else doing so.
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The way I see it, sex and violence are both normal, natural, and necessary parts of the human condition-- and have their rightful place being celebrated in our fantasies. That said, I am simply not interested in enduring a game that goes into excessive detail with either-- I don't want to hear about the orc slowly bleeding to death any more than I want to hear about the elf and the barmaid arguing over who has to sleep in the wet spot.
And I also don't want to fixate on the most diseased expressions of sex and violence. It's fine that torture and slavery and prostitution and rape exist in the game world, and it's fine that characters have them in their backstories. I just don't want them to occur on-screen. I don't want to have to describe them, and I don't want to listen to someone else doing so.
I have to say that what you're saying is what my feelings are on those subjects, too.
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I have to say that what you're saying is what my feelings are on those subjects, too.The way I see it, sex and violence are both normal, natural, and necessary parts of the human condition-- and have their rightful place being celebrated in our fantasies. That said, I am simply not interested in enduring a game that goes into excessive detail with either-- I don't want to hear about the orc slowly bleeding to death any more than I want to hear about the elf and the barmaid arguing over who has to sleep in the wet spot.
And I also don't want to fixate on the most diseased expressions of sex and violence. It's fine that torture and slavery and prostitution and rape exist in the game world, and it's fine that characters have them in their backstories. I just don't want them to occur on-screen. I don't want to have to describe them, and I don't want to listen to someone else doing so.
This statement comes off sounding like "I do not want it in my games, so I dont want it in any of the books" which is an attitude I find abhorrent, you may not have meant it that way though. Mature content should be available for those interested in including it.
Mature content should be available for those interested in including it.
This, this a thousand times over.
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This statement comes off sounding like "I do not want it in my games, so I dont want it in any of the books" which is an attitude I find abhorrent, you may not have meant it that way though. Mature content should be available for those interested in including it.I have to say that what you're saying is what my feelings are on those subjects, too.The way I see it, sex and violence are both normal, natural, and necessary parts of the human condition-- and have their rightful place being celebrated in our fantasies. That said, I am simply not interested in enduring a game that goes into excessive detail with either-- I don't want to hear about the orc slowly bleeding to death any more than I want to hear about the elf and the barmaid arguing over who has to sleep in the wet spot.
And I also don't want to fixate on the most diseased expressions of sex and violence. It's fine that torture and slavery and prostitution and rape exist in the game world, and it's fine that characters have them in their backstories. I just don't want them to occur on-screen. I don't want to have to describe them, and I don't want to listen to someone else doing so.
I don't know where you came to THAT conclusion. Nobday is saying, "I do not want it in my games, so I dont want it in any of the books". What is being said (and Viktyr Korimir, correct me of I am misquoting you) is that some of us don't want to fixate on it in OUR games. Whatever anyone else wants then let them have it in thier games and let them buy said materials if they ever become available. There are, however, some of us who couldn't give two shakes of a bat's nostril nostril about it.
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You have me more or less correct, Kevida. I do not mind, and in fact prefer, to have some degree of 'mature content' in both my games and in my game books-- I'm expressing concern that the desire for mature content for mature players not be used as an excuse for puerile garbage that is essentially less mature than the more sanitized forms of expression.
The core rulebook recommends several authors and novels for getting the feel of playing in the Pathfinder universe. One of those novels is the basis for the Hellraiser series of movies. That's some seriously dark fare and it includes graphic depictions of torture, but it's about curiosity and ambition and the prices that humans are willing to pay to fulfill them.
The point I'm trying to make is that sex and violence are both good things that we should enjoy in our lives and in our games, but I'm concerned that most of what passes for 'mature content' is just perversion packaged for cheap shock or titillation value-- that is what I don't want from Paizo or from legitimate 3PP.
Well, you know... there are a lot of people saying that "mature really means immature". I just don't see it. "Mature" is just a title, a word slapped on a concept without it really fitting. Graphic, explicit, there are other words that convey this better than mature or adult. Mature, in turn, better describes whether something touches on complicated concepts, difficult situations, deals with morality... i.e. doesn't take the simplistic black/white duality cop-out. So, to use this different terminology, whether a game is graphic or explicit really has no impact on whether it's mature or not.
Take Watchmen for example, the graphic novel. It contains harsh sentiments about society, complex judgements without easy answers, and so on. Few would today claim that it has no literary value. It is clearly a mature work. However, it also has rather shocking images of brutality and sex, and likewise, would generally be seen as graphic.
It may be that some who claim to want to do mature content do so because sex sells... but it's far from the whole truth, and it's not the maturity rating that does this.
Well, you know... there are a lot of people saying that "mature really means immature". I just don't see it. "Mature" is just a title, a word slapped on a concept without it really fitting. Graphic, explicit, there are other words that convey this better than mature or adult. Mature, in turn, better describes whether something touches on complicated concepts, difficult situations, deals with morality... i.e. doesn't take the simplistic black/white duality cop-out. So, to use this different terminology, whether a game is graphic or explicit really has no impact on whether it's mature or not.
Take Watchmen for example, the graphic novel. It contains harsh sentiments about society, complex judgements without easy answers, and so on. Few would today claim that it has no literary value. It is clearly a mature work. However, it also has rather shocking images of brutality and sex, and likewise, would generally be seen as graphic.
It may be that some who claim to want to do mature content do so because sex sells... but it's far from the whole truth, and it's not the maturity rating that does this.
Yeah; Book of Erotic Fantasy, encyclopedia arcane nymphology, the quintessential temptress, etc... were explicit and graphic, but treated a mature subject in a somewhat immature fashion.
Meanwhile, the Book of Exalted Deeds was a mature book without being particularly graphic.
Yeah; Book of Erotic Fantasy, encyclopedia arcane nymphology, the quintessential temptress, etc... were explicit and graphic, but treated a mature subject in a somewhat immature fashion.This doesn't seem like a very fair characterization. Mongoose's Encyclopedia Arcane: Nymphology and Quintessential Temptress were meant to be less-than-serious takes on the subject of sex, which is certainly a legitimate tact to take, and never billed themselves otherwise. They also weren't the first books to do so, as evidenced by things like the Slayer's Guide to Game Masters can attest.
Similarly, the Book of Erotic Fantasy did treat the subject of sex in your game maturely, it simply focused too strongly on the mechanical implications of it, needed another few rounds of editing, and should have rethought the issue of photoshopped pictured versus traditional illustrations.
By the way they made BoEF, it seems like they expected teenagers to pick it up (well, in some part).
Yes but if a person doesn't want it in their game why are the posting in a thread about mature content books? Since obviously the reason for the thread is to discuss them for use in a game.
Perhaps because Paizo can only put out so many books a year, and therefore the notion of "wasting" a slot on such a book sticks in a given poster's craw?
My own objections to it, which may not have been clear earlier, are fairly simple- I see no need to relegate "adult" material to some specialized ghetto in its own book, particularly when Paizo has been fairly liberal with letting things show up in an organic, natural state.
I do not need an "Ultimate Adult Content" book when things like the Runeforge's sin-based dungeons, Ileosa and her Grey Maidens, Kytons Hellraisering it up, the Grauls, Nualia's backstory, the Church of Lamashtu, and other such things show up as needed.
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I don't really think that the BOEF fixated to much on mechanics. The tables that it did have did not have any explicit descriptions. They just limited themselves to mundane descriptions. (Routine performance, Great performance, ect.) Most of the mechanics were in spells, classes and feats. The subject matter itself just had 4 tables with some pretty tame descriptions.
Chapter 1 - Love, Sex & Role playing is almost entirely fluff. Same with Chapter 6 - Gods and monsters (Half the chapter is deity descriptions)and Chapter 7 - Adventures and Organizations also mostly fluff.
Anyone who has read the book knows that if anything the book take on the subject is very serious and mature. A little too serious.
Now if you just picked up the book and started to browse its pages, the book might give the impression that it is somewhat immature because of the Art. The art is the low point of the book and causes a lot of people to put the book down.
Nymphology is the exact opposite of BOEF. The book was not meant to be taken seriously and you should steer away if you are easily offended.
Perhaps because Paizo can only put out so many books a year, and therefore the notion of "wasting" a slot on such a book sticks in a given poster's craw?
Nobody in this thread is asking Paizo for a mature book. What we do want is for other publishers to be able to do so without the morality police going up in arms about it. I also don't want a repeat of what happened to TSR when all mention of demons and devils were removed because of a very active and vocal minority. Sex after all is not the only type of mature content.
Now if for some crazy reason Paizo does decide to do a "Ultimate Adult Content" I am ready to preorder. But don't worry its not going to happen so Paizo is not going to waste one off your precious slots.
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Coming back to post in this again because nobody on the internet listens ever.
Paizo already publishes a wide swath of products with adult themes in them. There are numerous and continual references and opportunities to engage in sexual activity, drug use, torture, murder, consensual adult relationships, weird fetishes, rape, homosexuality etc... Littered throughout Paizo Published modules/APs/hell/player's guides/Campaign Setting even freaking PFS. However most of this is not paraded at the forefront, part of actual "adult" content is that the emphasis doesn't need to be squarely in front of your face it exists and can be incorporated as little or as greatly as you like with minimum effort.
So I have to ask again?
What is it that you people in this thread are actually asking for?
Most of these things are already present in Paizo published products to one degree or another.
Also a book called, "Ultimate Adult Content" is literally theeeee worst idea for Paizo public image ever, so please stop being so ridiculous. They're still a company that wants to make money guys...
Unless what is being asked for is a rule-set on how to describe and enact sexual activity like "role 2d4+2 for genital length", the things being requested are already available.
So I have to ask again?
What is it that you people in this thread are actually asking for?
Read my above post that obviously states that nobody is actually asking Paizo for anything. The fact is that the rule-set that you posted shows clearly, that it is you who is fixated on certain mechanics. Reading comprehension is essential in any discussion. I fail to see were anybody asked for your posted rule.
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Read my above post that obviously states that nobody is actually asking Paizo for anything. The fact is that the rule-set that you posted shows clearly, that it is you who is fixated on certain mechanics. Reading comprehension is essential in any discussion. I fail to see were anybody asked for your posted rule.So I have to ask again?
What is it that you people in this thread are actually asking for?
I have no serious fixation, I don't care what you or my psychiatrist say, the example is for humor's sake I know this is not what people "want". All I am trying to say is that Paizo Published material already has the hooks for anything else under the umbrella of "adult content" so literally what else would actually fill this Ultimate Adult Content book you're saying you would buy?
Coming back to post in this again because nobody on the internet listens ever.Including yourself, seeing as the post above yours answers your question. :P
To be fair I accounted for myself in that statement -_-!
Nobody in this thread is asking Paizo for a mature book. What we do want is for other publishers to be able to do so without the morality police going up in arms about it.
And I want a billion dollars. It's about as likely. The morality police, being the morality police, are going to have a (sacred) cow regardless of anyone's desires.
Cheer up, we've got demons, daemons, bisexual relationships, devils, murderous Deliverance-style ogres, sin-based magic, sex toys as Runeforge components, a prestige class devoted to eating souls, an AP wherein the PCs have scope for pretty near any hurtful and/or criminal endeavors they so desire (Pirates Are Bad Guys), overt racist motives for character actions (The Cinderlander, for instance), ethnic strife, and twisted NPC backstories galore. I think you're safe from the big, bad, scary morality police.
But don't worry its not going to happen so Paizo is not going to waste one [of] your precious slots.
Down boy, you might hurt yourself with that paranoia. I was hypothesizing about the motives of others in that particular section.
As far as I'm concerned, we're getting mature content on a fairly steady, regular basis. We've come a long way from the shock and incredulity expressed by some when one of the Darklords of Ravenloft turned out to be gay.
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Yes but if a person doesn't want it in their game why are the posting in a thread about mature content books? Since obviously the reason for the thread is to discuss them for use in a game.
Show me a multi-page thread where this doesn't happen...
"OMFGbiscuits, this is not Tolkein fantasy! KILL W/ FIRE!!11!"
"This will never see the light of day at my table."
"No one will want to play melee classes anymore; this has ruined Pathfinder."
"When are you going to 'fix' the monk!?"
"We're not playing BESM, get this crap off my subscription!"
"I really don't like the direction Paizo is going with all these new things."
"OMFG< I HATE ASIAN STUFF RAWWRRR!"
"When are you going to 'fix' the monk!?"
"I can safely say that I'll never use any of this shit in my games!"
"Fifth level PCs are overpowered as it is now--what the hell Paizo?!"
"All this will do is generate more fighter vs. caster disparity."
"When are you going to 'fix' the monk!?"
"Guys...Pathfinder's a wargame...learn how to play, 'kay?"
"What's the fighter going to do during all this? This playstyle only caters to casters and skill-monkeys."
"I really don't think this should be a hardcover...how about a pamplet sized book instead?"
"When are you going to 'fix' the monk!?"
"If this happens, I'm cancelling my subscription!"
"Pathfinder's about heroes, not villains. If you actually want to play these games, you are immature and childish. "
"I don't want my children to know that such things exist."
"When are you going to 'fix' the monk!?"
And so on, and so on. I try to avoid threads about things I have no interest in. The thread never goes anywhere useful with people b@&#~ing about the topic in every other post. Yes sometimes I do fail that will save (Shattered Star announcement being the only one I remember)...
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Might I point out "Mature" means different things to different people?
For example, Mature to me means very grey situations. MAture sex and violence means to me "There are various ways to introduce sex (and reprecussions) into a game." "Ways to deal with crippling wounds include..."
I don't need "Here are rules for body part size." "Is my ogre having sex piercing or bludgeoning damage?" "Roll d100 to see if you knocked her up." "Roll on the random limb loss table."
That's me. Others might want random fertility tables, more boobies in art, and mechanics on how aroused you feel after slaughtering a score of halflings.
Our hosts clearly feel they have their own guidelines on a) What they consider mature. (as evidenced in their products) and b) What they choose to allow their partners using the compatability license to show as mature (the little black square in my copy of The Black Monestary.)
...and mechanics on how aroused you feel after slaughtering a score of halflings.
I never feel aroused after slaughtering halflings--I feel justified at first, then I feel the need to destroy any equipment that the little fiends came in contact with. New tables won't change this.
Might I point out "Mature" means different things to different people?
For example, Mature to me means very grey situations. MAture sex and violence means to me "There are various ways to introduce sex (and reprecussions) into a game." "Ways to deal with crippling wounds include..."
I don't need "Here are rules for body part size." "Is my ogre having sex piercing or bludgeoning damage?" "Roll d100 to see if you knocked her up." "Roll on the random limb loss table."
That's me. Others might want random fertility tables, more boobies in art, and mechanics on how aroused you feel after slaughtering a score of halflings.
Our hosts clearly feel they have their own guidelines on a) What they consider mature. (as evidenced in their products) and b) What they choose to allow their partners using the compatability license to show as mature (the little black square in my copy of The Black Monestary.)
Are we still talking about Pathfinder/Paizo or did we derail into talking about FATAL?
Personally, I think an 'adult' material book would be the perfect vehicle 'fix' the monk =p
If you fix the monk, there isn't going to be much adultity happening...
Chief Technical Officer
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Paizo creates our Pathfinder products for ages 13 and up, and our licensees are expected to do the same. (Licensees can adjust that slightly as appropriate for their industry where needed—for example, WizKids has requirements that cause Pathfinder Battles minis to be labeled "Ages 14+", while Dynamite's Pathfinder comics are labeled "T+"). Even our open Pathfinder Compatibility License carries an adult-content clause: "You may not use this License for products that the general public would classify as 'adult content,' offensive, or inappropriate for minors."
This is not going to change.
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So, after reading this thread (and oh-so-many-others on this same or similar subject), let me get this straight:
Evil conservatives want to ban "mature" or explicit content because they're stuffy prudes.
Evil liberals want to ban "mature" or explicit content because it's exploitative of or offensive to [INSERT_GROUP_HERE].
In most cases, the content is pretty much the same, which is amusing to see folks in column A arguing against the folks in column B when they both have the same goal in mind.
On that note, when do we get to ban folks for yet again bringing politics out of the freakin' Off-Topic area?
Please read what Vic said, Brian. That is all.