paizo.com Recent Posts in Help with rules for low-magic campaignpaizo.com Recent Posts in Help with rules for low-magic campaign2012-08-03T04:25:35Z2012-08-03T04:25:35ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Help with rules for low-magic campaignBlack_Lanternhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ol77?Help-with-rules-for-lowmagic-campaign#132012-08-06T18:13:59Z2012-08-06T18:13:59Z<p>My best advice is either play low level or find another game.</p>My best advice is either play low level or find another game.Black_Lantern2012-08-06T18:13:59ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Help with rules for low-magic campaignLearnTheRuleshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ol77?Help-with-rules-for-lowmagic-campaign#122012-08-06T16:59:35Z2012-08-06T16:59:35Z<p>Speaking of Conan, you might consider using the armour as damage reduction rules that the Conan d20 rpg uses. That said full-plate will make characters nigh un-killable against weaker enemies so you could maybe split the DR and AC, e.g. Chainmail (usually +6AC) becomes 3 AC and DR 3/-. </p>
<p>If you want to allow some magic, adepts are fairly low power as casters go. The best way to nerf casters is probably running an E6/7/8 game as mentioned above, they won't get anything massively game breaking at those levels. E8 seems to be the best for pathfinder IMHO but E6 is still viable. Both keep the characters relatively human in toughness and encourage planning and teamwork to defeat foes.</p>Speaking of Conan, you might consider using the armour as damage reduction rules that the Conan d20 rpg uses. That said full-plate will make characters nigh un-killable against weaker enemies so you could maybe split the DR and AC, e.g. Chainmail (usually +6AC) becomes 3 AC and DR 3/-.
If you want to allow some magic, adepts are fairly low power as casters go. The best way to nerf casters is probably running an E6/7/8 game as mentioned above, they won't get anything massively game breaking...LearnTheRules2012-08-06T16:59:35ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Help with rules for low-magic campaignMike Jhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ol77?Help-with-rules-for-lowmagic-campaign#112012-08-06T08:26:40Z2012-08-06T08:26:40Z<p>From a game mechanics perspective: As long as the PCs get something resembling the typical bonuses they would normally get from magic items, you should be OK. Also if you stick to lower levels, any imbalance from lack of magic will be small. The impact of magic goes up exponentially as the levels increase.</p>
<p>Excluding classes should be fine, as long as the issue of healing is addressed in some way. Either through classes with access to the "cure" spells (Alchemist, etc.) or using the Wounds and Vigor system from Ultimate Combat.</p>
<p>The only thing you want to be careful with is upsetting the balance between classes. Take the fighter's magic items away and the self-buffing cleric or inquisitor becomes a martial god by comparison. It doesn't take much to shift the balance, especially at levels 6+.</p>From a game mechanics perspective: As long as the PCs get something resembling the typical bonuses they would normally get from magic items, you should be OK. Also if you stick to lower levels, any imbalance from lack of magic will be small. The impact of magic goes up exponentially as the levels increase.
Excluding classes should be fine, as long as the issue of healing is addressed in some way. Either through classes with access to the "cure" spells (Alchemist, etc.) or using the Wounds...Mike J2012-08-06T08:26:40ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Help with rules for low-magic campaignCan'tFindthePath (alias of Lane Coursey)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ol77?Help-with-rules-for-lowmagic-campaign#102012-08-06T06:12:15Z2012-08-06T06:12:15Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Lazlo.Arcadia wrote:</div><blockquote> Here is my first tip for designing low magic campaigns: don't let the folks on the message boards here tell you it cant be done....and a bunch of other great stuff </blockquote><p>+1...this is some of the best advice I've seen about low magic.
<p>Also, I'd like to mention an alternative for full casters in low magic campaigns:</p>
<p>Full casters stay as they are except they have the spell progression of a Bard (or even an Adept). And of course, if you allow Bards themselves, give them the progression of a Paladin/Ranger. Naturally, Paladins and Rangers get no spells.</p>
<p>This is pretty cool, as it accentuates the non-spellcasting abilities of the caster classes, and makes them think more. And in a low magical threat world, it works.</p>
<p>On the other hand, if you're doing more of a Conan thing then, yeah, just off 'em.</p>Lazlo.Arcadia wrote:Here is my first tip for designing low magic campaigns: don't let the folks on the message boards here tell you it cant be done....and a bunch of other great stuff
+1...this is some of the best advice I've seen about low magic. Also, I'd like to mention an alternative for full casters in low magic campaigns:
Full casters stay as they are except they have the spell progression of a Bard (or even an Adept). And of course, if you allow Bards themselves, give them the...Can'tFindthePath (alias of Lane Coursey)2012-08-06T06:12:15ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Help with rules for low-magic campaignLaurefindelhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ol77?Help-with-rules-for-lowmagic-campaign#92012-08-06T03:33:02Z2012-08-06T03:33:02Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:</div><blockquote> So I'm trying to get a group together and I was hoping to run a true low-magic campaign. Since the system assumes quite a lot of magic and magic items, here's what I'm trying so that it will still be fun AND still be Pathfinder.</blockquote><p>You shouldn't need the second part of #2. Magic items are rare and far between; that's all you need.
<p>Not sure about #3: it feels like the magical weapons they'll finally get won't feel very special compared to that. Again, magic items are few and far between; that's all you need.</p>
<p>Alternatively, give the players a +1 bonus per 3 levels to invest in inherent bonuses wherever they want (weapon, armour or saves). Make it stack with enhancement bonuses of weapons / armours/ capes. I don't think you need the amulet for that; make it part of a hero's progression. Besides, you avoid the issue of the charm being sundered/stolen/lost.</p>
<p>Also, if you think that players will get bored with non-magical rate of recovering lost hit points, consider <a href="http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz562u?StrainInjury-Variant-A-Minor-Change-to-Hit" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Lincoln's Strain/Wounds variant rule</a>. As some posters have put it, it's not so much a modification on how hit points work but on how they are recovered.</p>
<p>Finally, take all of that in consideration when you design / select foes and antagonists. Keep in mind that CR takes in consideration many resources that they will not have. In short, don't be an ass.</p>
<p>'findel</p>Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:So I'm trying to get a group together and I was hoping to run a true low-magic campaign. Since the system assumes quite a lot of magic and magic items, here's what I'm trying so that it will still be fun AND still be Pathfinder.
You shouldn't need the second part of #2. Magic items are rare and far between; that's all you need. Not sure about #3: it feels like the magical weapons they'll finally get won't feel very special compared to that. Again, magic items are...Laurefindel2012-08-06T03:33:02ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Help with rules for low-magic campaignGreg Wassonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ol77?Help-with-rules-for-lowmagic-campaign#82012-08-06T02:12:47Z2012-08-06T02:12:47Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ciaran Barnes wrote:</div><blockquote> It goes without saying that natural healing makes for a gritty game. The godless healing feat will look better and better. </blockquote><p>True dat.Ciaran Barnes wrote:It goes without saying that natural healing makes for a gritty game. The godless healing feat will look better and better.
True dat.Greg Wasson2012-08-06T02:12:47ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Help with rules for low-magic campaignCiaran Barneshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ol77?Help-with-rules-for-lowmagic-campaign#72012-08-06T01:55:01Z2012-08-06T01:55:01Z<p>It goes without saying that natural healing makes for a gritty game. The godless healing feat will look better and better.</p>It goes without saying that natural healing makes for a gritty game. The godless healing feat will look better and better.Ciaran Barnes2012-08-06T01:55:01ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Help with rules for low-magic campaignLazlo.Arcadiahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ol77?Help-with-rules-for-lowmagic-campaign#62013-10-14T20:54:53Z2012-08-06T01:47:07Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:</div><blockquote><p> So I'm trying to get a group together and I was hoping to run a true low-magic campaign. Since the system assumes quite a lot of magic and magic items, here's what I'm trying so that it will still be fun AND still be Pathfinder.</p>
<p>1) No class that gets 9 levels of spellcasting or an equivalent ability. Meaning no Clerics, Oracle, Druids, Wizards, Sorcerers, Witches, or Summoners. They just don't exist in the campaign world. If I missed any, let me know.</p>
<p>2) Magic items will be few and far between. To make up for this, Base Attack Bonus from class levels will add to AC. Full amount to base AC, half this rounded down to touch and flat footed.</p>
<p>3) Likewise, each PC will be given a special charm in game that lets them unlock special abilities as they grow stronger. For every 3 levels the PC has, they can add a +1 equivalent to the weapon. Every time they gain a level, they can reassign the + equivalents, kind of like an eidolon. These charms can work on any weapon, but require a couple minutes to be attuned to a weapon, so no having a golf bag of magic weapons. Similarly, even if the weapon is sundered/stolen, as long as they still have the charm they can attune it to another weapon. This includes unarmed strikes.</p>
<p>Any holes in these rules? Any further suggestions? </blockquote><p>Here is my first tip for designing low magic campaigns: don't let the folks on the message boards here tell you it cant be done. Keep in mind the D20 system is crazy versatile. The real question you want to ask if the campaign is low magic, or do your PC's simply not have access to it? Most assume the second when posting replies to such a campaign concept because they are so used to seeing D20 fantasy campaigns run a certain way. If it is truly a low level campaign then simply focus your encounters (and the monsters in them) with that in mind and come up with work arounds for any barrier you may throw at your party (and make sure they don't have to be psychic to figure it out!!).
<p>Example: Incorporeal Ghost. No one with Ghost Touch or similar weapon / effect. But can still be hit with Paladin Smite and the family sword of it's ancestors, etc. Result: Instant Ghost Touch (but only against uncle bob the ghost). The Golem needs an adamantite weapon to hit it, instead it now has DR5/-. Result: the fight is difficult and lasts longer but perhaps the Golem is vulnerable to the heated metal, such as raw bars which are red hot in the nearby forge and thus even the DR5/- could be by passed.</p>
<p>You do not have to rewrite the entire system using this approach, but you do have to spend and extra hour or so before running a published adventure reading it through and making sure that none of the threats are "unbeatable". Occasionally an encounter will need to be swapped out for a different foe, or that foe needs to have a special defense lowered or swapped for a different effect that still leaves the fight challenging but not unstoppable.</p>
<p>Another tip: for particularly tough "boss fights" have at least one non-combat option available to the party such as the Ghost cant enter the ruins of the ancient temple, wont attack the party if accompanied by a member of the Ghosts family, etc and thus you have your magic which the party can access for that encounter but aren't running around with +5 Flaming Swords of Butt-Stompin all the time. It forces your players to THINK, use non-combat skills such as Knowledge, unravel the next layer to your story and actually work together.</p>
<p>This technique works. More over it allows you to create customized and original encounters which yours players will talk about for YEARS and keep coming back for more. Anyone can pick up the +5 sword and go mow down the Big Bad Monster, but when they actually have to fight tactically together as a team in order to exploit a specific weakness that is an encounter they will remember. Yes it takes a little longer to set up. NO!! It is not impossible, nor the massive pain in butt to do that so many here on the forums will tell you that it has to be. And yes you can do it with Pathfinder core without having to use an alternate system like E6 or Iron Hero's or something.</p>
<p>Next tip: Set a level cap for your campaign and gauge your party progression against that. Gaining levels & magic items are NOT the only measurable rewards. Winning the big battle and saving the town can be a reward in of itself, especially if the party is attached to the place because you have woven the story line around them and their relationships there. Once they have saved the town now use that as the spring board for the next adventure. Your players become so involved with the cooperative story you create together they wont even care about the pieces they are "missing".</p>
<p>Keep in mind: Fantasy adventure is not about Magic spells, magic items, nor magical beasts. It is about Heroic stories being told about good vs evil. Think I'm wrong about this approach? Watch the Movie "Conan the Barbarian" with Arnold Schwarzenegger. Lots of high adventure, but low on the magic side of the house. I'd also point out that Conan's DM wasn't throwing at him monsters that required specific spells or magic items that he didn't possess in order to over come them either. This same thing can be said about the Lord of the Rings. Classic fantasy which is the very frame work upon which virtually all modern fantasy was written around, but if you read the books / watch the movies you will notice that even Gandalf wasn't throwing around reality ripping magic all the time.</p>
<p>In closing: i'm not suggesting removing any of the magic from you campaign per se, but rather am saying get a good feel for what level of magic you want in your campaign and then build your campaign around it. Does that mean you'll need to think things through a bit on how you have to handle magic items, beasts, spells, etc? Yes, of course. But then when you choose to run a non "canned" style of campaign you sorta take on that load as a DM. Welcome to the world of creative engineering. :)</p>
<p>~ Lazlo ~</p>Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:So I'm trying to get a group together and I was hoping to run a true low-magic campaign. Since the system assumes quite a lot of magic and magic items, here's what I'm trying so that it will still be fun AND still be Pathfinder.
1) No class that gets 9 levels of spellcasting or an equivalent ability. Meaning no Clerics, Oracle, Druids, Wizards, Sorcerers, Witches, or Summoners. They just don't exist in the campaign world. If I missed any, let me know.
2) Magic...Lazlo.Arcadia2012-08-06T01:47:07ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Help with rules for low-magic campaignBltzKrg242https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ol77?Help-with-rules-for-lowmagic-campaign#52012-08-03T18:24:00Z2012-08-03T18:24:00Z<p>For my low magic campaigns, I double all XP requirements to level for Primary casters. So you can BE one of the classes you suggest it just takes a lot of effort.
<br />
No crafting skills above scrolls.
<br />
I do use a variant of the DarkSun progression chart with +'s to hit, Saves, and ability to affect certain defenses as you level.</p>For my low magic campaigns, I double all XP requirements to level for Primary casters. So you can BE one of the classes you suggest it just takes a lot of effort.
No crafting skills above scrolls.
I do use a variant of the DarkSun progression chart with +'s to hit, Saves, and ability to affect certain defenses as you level.BltzKrg2422012-08-03T18:24:00ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Help with rules for low-magic campaignHelamanhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ol77?Help-with-rules-for-lowmagic-campaign#42012-08-03T10:32:06Z2012-08-03T10:32:06Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Greg Wasson wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Please do not stone me for suggesting.... Have you considered <a href="http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?352719-necro-goodness-E6-The-Game-Inside-D-amp-D" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">E6</a>? </p>
<p>Pathfinder discussions can be found on search..but here is one</p>
<p><a href="http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz3at5?Pathfinder-E6#0" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"> Pathfinder E6 discussion</a></p>
<p>Greg </blockquote><p>I was gonna suggest the same.
<p>As for items themselves, limit the value of GP of magic items avail.</p>
<p>6th level is a floating value... E5 can be used or E7, my preference, or E8</p>Greg Wasson wrote:Please do not stone me for suggesting.... Have you considered E6?
Pathfinder discussions can be found on search..but here is one
Pathfinder E6 discussion
Greg
I was gonna suggest the same. As for items themselves, limit the value of GP of magic items avail.
6th level is a floating value... E5 can be used or E7, my preference, or E8Helaman2012-08-03T10:32:06ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Help with rules for low-magic campaignAscalaphushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ol77?Help-with-rules-for-lowmagic-campaign#32012-08-03T09:09:35Z2012-08-03T09:09:35Z<p>Do enemy monsters still use a lot of magic, or are you mostly using monsters without magical abilities?</p>
<p>Monsters with abilities that you NEED spells to handle well, would become a problem (DR/magic, energy/ability drain, mummy rot...)</p>
<p>I'd say that making a working low-magic PF is pretty hard. It gets easier if you use low-magic monsters, and nudge players towards non-spellcasting archetypes a bit.</p>
<p>I dunno about those charms. Wouldn't those inject the magic right back in again? If you're gonna do low magic, just do low magic. Scale down monsters a bit, or use 1-2 challenge ratings lower monsters than normally, to compensate for the lack of magic gear?</p>
<p>If wind/fog spells are rare, then archers will become very powerful.</p>Do enemy monsters still use a lot of magic, or are you mostly using monsters without magical abilities?
Monsters with abilities that you NEED spells to handle well, would become a problem (DR/magic, energy/ability drain, mummy rot...)
I'd say that making a working low-magic PF is pretty hard. It gets easier if you use low-magic monsters, and nudge players towards non-spellcasting archetypes a bit.
I dunno about those charms. Wouldn't those inject the magic right back in again? If you're...Ascalaphus2012-08-03T09:09:35ZRe: Forums: Homebrew and House Rules: Help with rules for low-magic campaignGreg Wassonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ol77?Help-with-rules-for-lowmagic-campaign#22012-08-03T04:41:11Z2012-08-03T04:41:11Z<p>Please do not stone me for suggesting.... Have you considered <a href="http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?352719-necro-goodness-E6-The-Game-Inside-D-amp-D" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">E6</a>? </p>
<p>Pathfinder discussions can be found on search..but here is one</p>
<p><a href="http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz3at5?Pathfinder-E6#0" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"> Pathfinder E6 discussion</a></p>
<p>Greg</p>Please do not stone me for suggesting.... Have you considered E6?
Pathfinder discussions can be found on search..but here is one
Pathfinder E6 discussion
GregGreg Wasson2012-08-03T04:41:11ZForums: Homebrew and House Rules: Help with rules for low-magic campaignDarigaaz the Igniterhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ol77?Help-with-rules-for-lowmagic-campaign#12012-08-03T04:25:35Z2012-08-03T04:25:35Z<p>So I'm trying to get a group together and I was hoping to run a true low-magic campaign. Since the system assumes quite a lot of magic and magic items, here's what I'm trying so that it will still be fun AND still be Pathfinder.</p>
<p>1) No class that gets 9 levels of spellcasting or an equivalent ability. Meaning no Clerics, Oracle, Druids, Wizards, Sorcerers, Witches, or Summoners. They just don't exist in the campaign world. If I missed any, let me know.</p>
<p>2) Magic items will be few and far between. To make up for this, Base Attack Bonus from class levels will add to AC. Full amount to base AC, half this rounded down to touch and flat footed.</p>
<p>3) Likewise, each PC will be given a special charm in game that lets them unlock special abilities as they grow stronger. For every 3 levels the PC has, they can add a +1 equivalent to the weapon. Every time they gain a level, they can reassign the + equivalents, kind of like an eidolon. These charms can work on any weapon, but require a couple minutes to be attuned to a weapon, so no having a golf bag of magic weapons. Similarly, even if the weapon is sundered/stolen, as long as they still have the charm they can attune it to another weapon. This includes unarmed strikes.</p>
<p>Any holes in these rules? Any further suggestions?</p>So I'm trying to get a group together and I was hoping to run a true low-magic campaign. Since the system assumes quite a lot of magic and magic items, here's what I'm trying so that it will still be fun AND still be Pathfinder.
1) No class that gets 9 levels of spellcasting or an equivalent ability. Meaning no Clerics, Oracle, Druids, Wizards, Sorcerers, Witches, or Summoners. They just don't exist in the campaign world. If I missed any, let me know.
2) Magic items will be few and far...Darigaaz the Igniter2012-08-03T04:25:35Z