| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
So, if a Wizard throws down two castings of Mind Fog, and a Fighter fails both of the saving throws...does the penalty stack? Or would it just count as two effects to dispel off the Fighter?
Penalties from the same source don't stack. A spell, even cast multiple times, counts as the same source.
Example: Ray of Enfeeblement hits fighter, fighter takes -3 penalty to STR. Next round fighter gets hit with RoE again for -2. Fighter still only has a -3 to STR, not -5 as they do not stack. 3rd round he gets hit again (spellcaster is stubborn I guess) for -5. Now fighter has a -5 (not -7 or -8 or -10) to STR.
Same thing applies to Mind Fog. Fighter only ever gets a -10 to Will saves and WIS checks no matter how many times he fails. Whether or not there are two applications to dispel before the penalty is removed, I'm less sure about.
Gotcha.
Penalties from the same source don't stack.
This sounds familiar, but I can't find the rule.
Ray of Enfeeblement has a specific rule that says "This penalty does not stack with itself."
Penalty: "Penalties are numerical values that are subtracted from a check or statistical score. Penalties do not have a type and most penalties stack with one another."
There's a rule that says "Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source" but I don't see anything for penalties.
-edit- Found this, under Bonus Types: "The same principle applies to penalties—a character taking two or more penalties of the same type applies only the worst one, although most penalties have no type and thus always stack."
That seems to imply penalties without a type stack.
Penalties from the same source don't stack.This sounds familiar, but I can't find the rule.
Ray of Enfeeblement has a specific rule that says "This penalty does not stack with itself."
Penalty: "Penalties are numerical values that are subtracted from a check or statistical score. Penalties do not have a type and most penalties stack with one another."
There's a rule that says "Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source" but I don't see anything for penalties.
-edit- Found this, under Bonus Types: "The same principle applies to penalties—a character taking two or more penalties of the same type applies only the worst one, although most penalties have no type and thus always stack."
That seems to imply penalties without a type stack.
Hrm, good catch, however I've been basing my judgment on the Evil Eye FAQ:
This doesn't violate the general rule fora stacking penalties--each evil eye effect is basically a different source, even though they stem from the evil eye hex (the evil eye hex is much like 5 separate weak hexes under a common umbrella). In the same way that multiple castings of bestow curse on the same target should stack as long as they do different things (penalize Strength, penalize Dex, penalize attack rolls, take no action, and so on), multiple uses of the evil eye hex stack as long as they're targeting different game statistics.
The implication of this FAQ ruling to me sounds like penalties affecting the same thing (such as a will save) from the same source (Bestow Curse, Evil Eye, Mind Fog) don't stack.
The implication of this FAQ ruling to me sounds like penalties affecting the same thing (such as a will save) from the same source (Bestow Curse, Evil Eye, Mind Fog) don't stack.
See, I was under the that wasn't true, primarily because Bestow Curse and Mind Fog would be two different spells ( different sources ) and thus would stack.
If Mind Fog does stack, illusionists and enchanters get a HUGE buff.
EDIT: Gonna toss a FAQ vote up. Its an interesting question, as the penalty is untyped. If Untyped penalties work like untyped bonuses...yikes.
EDIT 2.0: Nevermind, read what evil eye does. It too is an untyped penalty, but as they come from the same spell ( I.E. Source ) they wouldn't stack. Now I wish I hadn't FAQed the question. xP
The implication of this FAQ ruling to me sounds like penalties affecting the same thing (such as a will save) from the same source (Bestow Curse, Evil Eye, Mind Fog) don't stack.See, I was under the that wasn't true, primarily because Bestow Curse and Mind Fog would be two different spells ( different sources ) and thus would stack.
If Mind Fog does stack, illusionists and enchanters get a HUGE buff.
EDIT: Gonna toss a FAQ vote up. Its an interesting question, as the penalty is untyped. If Untyped penalties work like untyped bonuses...yikes.
EDIT 2.0: Nevermind, read what evil eye does. It too is an untyped penalty, but as they come from the same spell ( I.E. Source ) they wouldn't stack. Now I wish I hadn't FAQed the question. xP
Sorry I should have been more specific. It wasn't my intent to make it sound like I was saying the -4 to a save from Bestow Curse and the -10 from Mind Fog wouldn't stack, they certainly would, because as you said, they come from different sources.
No worries. Glad to have cleared that up for future Enchanter/Illusionist builds. Just need a Witch Cohort (Ill Omen makes me giggle).
There's a specific rule governing multiple castings of the same spell -- by default such castings overlap and do not stack.
This is an exception to the general rule that untyped penalties do stack.
Found it! Under "Combining Magic Effects"
Stacking Effects: "Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves."
Well done Grick!
Which means that two overlapping cloudkill spells would stack, as well as two overlapping wall of fire spells, since those spells deal damage, not penalties?
Eyup.
Kewl!