Thanks Grimmy
No in most cases the fights aren't extra hard at least not enough to justify a CR increase. The only exception being my lovable munchkin GM who LOVES to prebuff his fights with expendables from the treasure pile... Those fights are noticeably harder and often less rewarding (as the treasure is smaller than it would be). But in some cases he does increase the CR since we do seem to get good XP from his fights. But whether that is from treasure or templates I can't be sure. The point is mr munchkin GM loves tough fights and encourages us to optimize or die. We have fun though so I can't complain.
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Gorbacz: I've said this before in other threads but no-one gets it. I'm not here to fight I'm here to learn. Just because I'm not good with numbers doesn't mean I can't play this game right?
The issue isn't allowing enemies to use what they have, the issue is having the dragon have less gold treasure because you want to give them "X" item, but you don't want to admit "X" item makes them better in combat.
What equipment the enemy has is laid out in the bestiary for monsters.
Non-Monster enemies go off of the NPC wealth, and obviously that includes equipment.
The question is if you take say, the Solar entry as equipped or you reduce the amount of gold/gem/misc treasure and give them more things to fight with.
The stance is you can feel free to have the dragon have a smaller hoard so they can buy something combat useful, but that will make the dragon more difficult than the book dragon.
Which seems really, really obvious so I don't know what the debate is.
I was wondering if you guys felt differently about bestiary entries with NPC Gear and ones with class levels instead of racial HD. I guess you do? If so that makes a little more sense to me.
Gorbacz: I've said this before in other threads but no-one gets it. I'm not here to fight I'm here to learn. Just because I'm not good with numbers doesn't mean I can't play this game right?
6th printing CRB requires you to be good at math to play the game. Sorry, mate.
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Gorbacz: I've said this before in other threads but no-one gets it. I'm not here to fight I'm here to learn. Just because I'm not good with numbers doesn't mean I can't play this game right?
Of course you can, nobody is saying otherwise. Where it becomes problematic is when you discuss mathematical stuff, such as balance.
I guess I feel that CR shouldn't be linked to treasure. Why because if you do you artificially enhance the rate at which your players level. If you equip a Marilith with gear it doesn't change the outcome of the fight usually what is DOES do is make the fight a little more interesting. And it makes NO sense that an intelligent being wouldn't use what it has for it's own ends. It smacks of MMO mentality to think a monster just sparkles on the floor with all manner of loot after it dies when it clearly could have used this loot to help itself fight.
Actually If I was playing in a game with lots of npcs I might use the fast expirence track so I don't have to worry about too much treasure. Also defeat him avenge me with his sword sounds like awesome last words for a character.
Ciretose, You say "have the dragon have a smaller horde so they can buy something combat useful", I say there is probably something useful already in that horde, I'm not buying anything or making anything smaller. You say if the dragon uses something combat useful from his horde he will be more difficult then the book dragon, I say he will still be the book dragon, but yes he will be more difficult then he would be if he hadn't used anything useful from his horde. You say this is really obvious and ask me what is the debate, I say... The only thing left to debate is how much more difficult has the dragon become? Is it enough to change his CR? And I say, according to the rules, usually not, unless you get really crazy optimal and cheesy about what is sitting in that horde for him to use.
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Gorbacz: I've said this before in other threads but no-one gets it. I'm not here to fight I'm here to learn. Just because I'm not good with numbers doesn't mean I can't play this game right?Of course you can, nobody is saying otherwise. Where it becomes problematic is when you discuss mathematical stuff, such as balance.
Fair enough, but you say don't bring a knife to gun fight. What I'm wondering is, why the hell are we having a gunfight!!!???!
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Ciretose, You say "have the dragon have a smaller horde so they can buy something combat useful", I say there is probably something useful already in that horde, I'm not buying anything or making anything smaller. You say if the dragon uses something combat useful from his horde he will be more difficult then the book dragon, I say he will still be the book dragon, but yes he will be more difficult then he would be if he hadn't used anything useful from his horde. You say this is really obvious and ask me what is the debate, I say... The only thing left to debate is how much more difficult has the dragon become? Is it enough to change his CR? And I say, according to the rules, usually not, unless you get really crazy optimal and cheesy about what is sitting in that horde for him to use.
Conceptually the bestiary is the creature equipped for combat. Anything they have in treasure is presumably something they are storing as treasure.
Otherwise, they would be wearing it.
Now if you want to upgrade what is listed for some reason, great. More power to you. But the creature as written was the creature intended for combat at that level.
Some items don't do much to CR, some do. Particularly disposable items that would no longer be part of the treasure when used, meaning you just reduced treasure and increased difficulty.
I personally almost always customize enemies. I think it is a better way to play. But I also know that doing so often means making them better than book, and I keep that in mind.
You also need to remember the context of the original debate the OP is referring to was the OP providing optimal and arguably cheesy equipment to bestiary monsters, then throwing a fit when someone said that might raise the CR.
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Gorbacz: I've said this before in other threads but no-one gets it. I'm not here to fight I'm here to learn. Just because I'm not good with numbers doesn't mean I can't play this game right?Of course you can, nobody is saying otherwise. Where it becomes problematic is when you discuss mathematical stuff, such as balance.
I've never tried to be the numbers guy in this thread.
Ashiel says "reminder guys, your monsters can use cool stuff they have lying around in their treasure hordes."
I'm like "yeah I've been doing this it's been going great"
People come in like "watch out though it will change the CR and throw everything out of balance"
Fighting ensues, someone calls me a passive aggressive, snarky, embarrassing Ashiel cheerleader.
Someone asks James Jacobs, he says the CR doesn't change, as long as you don't do anything super cheesy.
Debate rages on anyway.
I say the same thing James Jacobs has said but when he says it he's right, when I say it I'm bad at math.
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Ciretose, You say "have the dragon have a smaller horde so they can buy something combat useful", I say there is probably something useful already in that horde, I'm not buying anything or making anything smaller. You say if the dragon uses something combat useful from his horde he will be more difficult then the book dragon, I say he will still be the book dragon, but yes he will be more difficult then he would be if he hadn't used anything useful from his horde. You say this is really obvious and ask me what is the debate, I say... The only thing left to debate is how much more difficult has the dragon become? Is it enough to change his CR? And I say, according to the rules, usually not, unless you get really crazy optimal and cheesy about what is sitting in that horde for him to use.
Conceptually the bestiary is the creature equipped for combat. Anything they have in treasure is presumably something they are storing as treasure.
Otherwise, they would be wearing it.
Now if you want to upgrade what is listed for some reason, great. More power to you. But the creature as written was the creature intended for combat at that level.
Some items don't do much to CR, some do. Particularly disposable items that would no longer be part of the treasure when used, meaning you just reduced treasure and increased difficulty.
I personally almost always customize enemies. I think it is a better way to play. But I also know that doing so often means making them better than book, and I keep that in mind.
You also need to remember the context of the original debate the OP is referring to was the OP providing optimal and arguably cheesy equipment to bestiary monsters, then throwing a fit when someone said that might raise the CR.
Giving the creature a PC WBL array of gear adds +1 to CR.Just remember that assigning non-PC gear means you should be following the guidelines for NPC gear (see Step 6: Gear on the linked page).
Note that those guidelines don't let NPCs spend their gold on whatever they want. They dictate, in general terms, how much gold should be spent on each category of item and how many items should be purchased from each category (the minimum number of items that can purchased for the budget in that category).
A marilith should have, at best, gear equivalent to an NPC of the same CR. So, per the guidelines, she shouldn't have much more than 23,000 gp worth of (non-limited-use) protective items. And, per the guidelines, that 23,000 gp should be used to purchase a small number of expensive protective items, not the optimal combination of less-expensive protective items. Nor should she have more than 24,000 gp worth of offensive items, nor 20,000 gp worth of stat boosters, nor 8,000 gp worth of limited use items (purchasing a small number of expensive consumables, not a large number of cheap but optimal ones).
Those are the guidelines for NPC gear. If your monster is purchasing a larger number of cheap but optimal magic items or spending a larger than normal percentage of its gold on a given category of gear, then your monster has exceeded the allotted amount of NPC gear, and should be assigned +1 CR for having PC gear. Being able to spend ones wealth however one pleases is a function of having PC WBL; everyone else is beholden to the much more limited guidelines for NPC gear.
(Also, a marilith is a terrible example to use in a debate about monsters which carry treasure, since a marilith wields 48 pounds of Large longsword, and thus wouldn't want to carry more than 2 additional pounds of gear on her person. Anything beyond that would get left behind the first time she teleports, which she presumably does quite often, as she can...
Interesting point about the teleport weight limit I wonder if anyone else thought of that? I've been looking at deadmanwalkings marilith numbers, it's a lot to take in, I've never played at high levels, but its really interesting how involved the CR mechanics are. Im learning a lot.
At the levels I'm playing at all I'm doing is giving an Orc a reach weapon and he's fighting in a stairwell, or giving goblins tanglefoot bags. A potion here, a wand with a few charges there, just to add some surprises and challenges to monsters they've seen before. Nothing like a marilith.
But I haven't forgotten about the divisions of NpC wealth that you mentioned. I do it all in Hero Lab so it makes it easier, they spell out the categories and values for you.
It really simple if you adjust the stat block check the monster and see if you need to adjust the CR as well. Up or down as needed. If monster should 4k in loot for it CR you give it 4k in gold it dose not change the CR. If you give it 4k Headband of +2 int and really dose you skill or save any of it save DC then do not adjust the CR. I mean If have fighter with 30k in loot and he has is all in peal of power and he dose not cast any spell then do adjust the CR down. but If monster get way better the make higher CR.
Quit try to stretch the CR system so you can make tougher fights for your party just so you can kill them. You are the GM you can kill any PC you want at any time you want doing so dose not prove that your are a good GM or smart GM. Running a game where each and every fight party feel threaten for there life but you do not take it that is sign of a good GM.
Ciretose, You say "have the dragon have a smaller horde so they can buy something combat useful", I say there is probably something useful already in that horde, I'm not buying anything or making anything smaller. You say if the dragon uses something combat useful from his horde he will be more difficult then the book dragon, I say he will still be the book dragon, but yes he will be more difficult then he would be if he hadn't used anything useful from his horde. You say this is really obvious and ask me what is the debate, I say... The only thing left to debate is how much more difficult has the dragon become? Is it enough to change his CR? And I say, according to the rules, usually not, unless you get really crazy optimal and cheesy about what is sitting in that horde for him to use.
Conceptually the bestiary is the creature equipped for combat. Anything they have in treasure is presumably something they are storing as treasure.
Otherwise, they would be wearing it.
Now if you want to upgrade what is listed for some reason, great. More power to you. But the creature as written was the creature intended for combat at that level.
Some items don't do much to CR, some do. Particularly disposable items that would no longer be part of the treasure when used, meaning you just reduced treasure and increased difficulty.
I personally almost always customize enemies. I think it is a better way to play. But I also know that doing so often means making them better than book, and I keep that in mind.
You also need to remember the context of the original debate the OP is referring to was the OP providing optimal and arguably cheesy equipment to bestiary monsters, then throwing a fit when someone said that might raise the CR.
Yeah I think this has happened before to me where I knew nothing about the context of the original debate, thought I was in an original topic, and couldn't figure out what everyone was so wound up about.
So when you customize enemies, how do you decide what to do to the CR? Because I'm not seeing what you can pull out of a creatures treasure pile that can equate to giving it full PC WBL gear from head to toe (that's my reference point for a +1 CR value).
Do you use the bestiary table or just common sense?
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It really simple if you adjust the stat block check the monster and see if you need to adjust the CR as well. Up or down as needed. If monster should 4k in loot for it CR you give it 4k in gold it dose not change the CR. If you give it 4k Headband of +2 int and really dose you skill or save any of it save DC then do not adjust the CR. I mean If have fighter with 30k in loot and he has is all in peal of power and he dose not cast any spell then do adjust the CR down. but If monster get way better the make higher CR.
Quit try to stretch the CR system so you can make tougher fights for your party just so you can kill them. You are the GM you can kill any PC you want at any time you want doing so dose not prove that your are a good GM or smart GM. Running a game where each and every fight party feel threaten for there life but you do not take it that is sign of a good GM.
Tom you have really good points and are just about the only one in here with a concrete solution (checking the table 1-1). You obviously know your stuff, but JESUS the way you write is hard to read! :)
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The issue isn't allowing enemies to use what they have, the issue is having the dragon have less gold treasure because you want to give them "X" item, but you don't want to admit "X" item makes them better in combat.
What equipment the enemy has is laid out in the bestiary for monsters.
Non-Monster enemies go off of the NPC wealth, and obviously that includes equipment.
The question is if you take say, the Solar entry as equipped or you reduce the amount of gold/gem/misc treasure and give them more things to fight with.
The stance is you can feel free to have the dragon have a smaller hoard so they can buy something combat useful, but that will make the dragon more difficult than the book dragon.
Which seems really, really obvious so I don't know what the debate is.
Are you suggesting that for most monsters (anyone not using the NPC gear treasure type) any treasure should be gold/gem/misc not magic items, except for those listed as gear?
I've always assumed, and I think module treasures support this, that magic items make up a good part of the value of found treasure.
There is a line between worn items and found treasure. Both go to the players after they beat the monster, but one part is used for the encounter as "equipment" and one part is "treasure".
When deciding how powerful a creature is, they base that on the "equipment" given to the creature. The treasure is assumed to not be equipped.
Otherwise they would list it as part of the stat block...as they do for monsters that have equipment.
Now if you decide to move some of the total wealth from the "treasure" to the "equipment" you are making the monster better than written.
Will this up the CR? Maybe, maybe not, there is a chart in the bestiary, make your own choices as you would with advantageous (or disadvantageous) terrain and ambush situations.
But don't say it isn't different from what is listed by book.
Example: Players find and slay 3 orcs in the forest. Do the players get a CR1 XP reward? Of course. Do they get a CR1 treasure? Maybe, maybe not. Why would orcs be carrying around 250gp? Maybe they're starving and poor. Maybe they're looting and pillaging to FIND some gold. If the players EXPECT it, then there is the wrong mentality about the game world. If the players LOOK for treasure, then they're rp'ing appropriately. If players whine and complain that "There ought to be a CR1 reward on these orcs" then we need to go to the forums and let everyone know that this is the wrong expectation to have.
Okay, I see the point you're trying to make now. I disagree very strongly on the "the challenge is its own reward", because that's what XP and gold is for.
But this is also completely off topic from the discussion at hand, so please take it elsewhere =)
Example: Players find and slay 3 orcs in the forest. Do the players get a CR1 XP reward? Of course. Do they get a CR1 treasure? Maybe, maybe not. Why would orcs be carrying around 250gp? Maybe they're starving and poor. Maybe they're looting and pillaging to FIND some gold. If the players EXPECT it, then there is the wrong mentality about the game world. If the players LOOK for treasure, then they're rp'ing appropriately. If players whine and complain that "There ought to be a CR1 reward on these orcs" then we need to go to the forums and let everyone know that this is the wrong expectation to have.Okay, I see the point you're trying to make now.
It's also completely off topic from the discussion at hand, so please take it elsewhere =)
It is directly related to the topic at hand.
The topic at hand is "should a monster who has its gold converted into equipment to use against the party have its CR adjusted to compensate?"
Not player entitlement.
That is a strawman Tom... Everyone here is using balanced fights for the PCs. The only differences seem to be whether to let the monster use what it already has to help itself or to use MMO style loot appearing out of nowhere when you kill them. And as a side issue how much XP you are giving them if you do let them use their own treasure.
I find it fascinating that the argument still rages if the developers have already weighed in that the CR doesn't change (unless you do something cheesy).
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So when you customize enemies, how do you decide what to do to the CR? Because I'm not seeing what you can pull out of a creatures treasure pile that can equate to giving it full PC WBL gear from head to toe (that's my reference point for a +1 CR value).
Let us say you gave a group of goblin rogues fly and invisibility potions rather than treasure for a CR 2 encounter.
Would that significantly effect the CR of the encounter?
I would say so.
CR is always a judgment call, with the bestiary as a guideline. But when you start playing with the guideline baseline...
You don't need to adjust CR if it is fairly minor, which is what JJ said.
But you do if it changes a lot, which is also what he said.
Customizing enemies is great. As I said I do it. I also try to keep in mind if I am increasing or decreasing power with the changes I make.
And unlike Tool Time, I don't always aim for "More power is better!"
Giving goblins fly and invisibility potions counts as cheesy I think.
...Giving the creature a PC WBL array of gear adds +1 to CR.Just remember that assigning non-PC gear means you should be following the guidelines for NPC gear (see Step 6: Gear on the linked page).
Note that those guidelines don't let NPCs spend their gold on whatever they want. They dictate, in general terms, how much gold should be spent on each category of item and how many items should be purchased from each category (the minimum number of items that can purchased for the budget in that category).
A marilith should have, at best, gear equivalent to an NPC of the same CR. So, per the guidelines, she shouldn't have much more than 23,000 gp worth of (non-limited-use) protective items. And, per the guidelines, that 23,000 gp should be used to purchase a small number of expensive protective items, not the optimal combination of less-expensive protective items. Nor should she have more than 24,000 gp worth of offensive items, nor 20,000 gp worth of stat boosters, nor 8,000 gp worth of limited use items (purchasing a small number of expensive consumables, not a large number of cheap but optimal ones).
Those are the guidelines for NPC gear. If your monster is purchasing a larger number of cheap but optimal magic items or spending a larger than normal percentage of its gold on a given category of gear, then your monster has exceeded the allotted amount of NPC gear, and should be assigned +1 CR for having PC gear. Being able to spend ones wealth however one pleases is a function of having PC WBL; everyone else is beholden to the much more limited guidelines for NPC gear.
(Also, a marilith is a terrible example to use in a debate about monsters which carry treasure, since a marilith wields 48 pounds of Large longsword, and thus wouldn't want to carry more than 2 additional pounds of gear on her person. Anything beyond that would get left behind the first time she teleports, which she presumably does
It realy much worst at low levels give goblin a tangle foot bag and long bow that is huge for it CR 1/3. It changes the damage for 1d3x2 to 1d6x3 and a DC of 11 to DC 15 that huge jump in power.
If level 1 PC iand I see 4 goblin with longbows and tangle foot bags I am scared cuase that like CR 1 for damage and CR 4 for Save DC that mean they are about CR 1 or 2as far as change each not the littel 1/3 than they are listed at.
I find it fascinating that the argument still rages if the developers have already weighed in that the CR doesn't change (unless you do something cheesy).
This was the reason I hid the Rules Questions forum - dropping a comment from anyone other than the core rules devs themselves, and even sometimes then, often got a disdainful remark from those who disagreed with it and the argument just kept on rolling.
A lot of the time I think people argue just for the sake of arguing here. =) I certainly don't see 9/10s of these arguments anywhere off forums dedicated to the subject.
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That is a strawman Tom... Everyone here is using balanced fights for the PCs. The only differences seem to be whether to let the monster use what it already has to help itself or to use MMO style loot appearing out of nowhere when you kill them. And as a side issue how much XP you are giving them if you do let them use their own treasure.
I find it fascinating that the argument still rages if the developers have already weighed in that the CR doesn't change (unless you do something cheesy).
Just for good measure:
AKA: if a monster spends its money to gear up, then no, that does not change the monster's CR.
But if you happen to be the type of GM who is REALLY GOOD at buffing a monster by bending rules... it's probably not a bad idea to take your finalized monster, compare its numbers to Table 1–1 in the Bestiary, and then re-assign its CR if you cheesed it up into a higher category.
Tom you have really good points and are just about the only one in here with a concrete solution (checking the table 1-1). You obviously know your stuff, but JESUS the way you write is hard to read! :)It really simple if you adjust the stat block check the monster and see if you need to adjust the CR as well. Up or down as needed. If monster should 4k in loot for it CR you give it 4k in gold it dose not change the CR. If you give it 4k Headband of +2 int and really dose you skill or save any of it save DC then do not adjust the CR. I mean If have fighter with 30k in loot and he has is all in peal of power and he dose not cast any spell then do adjust the CR down. but If monster get way better the make higher CR.
Quit try to stretch the CR system so you can make tougher fights for your party just so you can kill them. You are the GM you can kill any PC you want at any time you want doing so dose not prove that your are a good GM or smart GM. Running a game where each and every fight party feel threaten for there life but you do not take it that is sign of a good GM.
Thank you for complement.
You would not know that have Master degree by the way that type…lol… It one stream of thought with no edit. I will add you to list of about 1000 folks that have said the same thing to me.
Giving goblins fly and invisibility potions counts as cheesy I think.
Which is sort of the heart of the argument. No one is saying that simply changing a goblins dogslicer to a rusty short sword is going to make any monumental changes.
We're saying that if you change the nature of the encounter by altering the math further in one way or another the CR changes. The only guideline for this is the guideline for CR's. The treasure is not their as justification to make this change without altering CR. It's is their as a convenient means of determining just what they can possibly get while staying within appropriate treasure levels for the players if and when they manage to murder it.
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So when you customize enemies, how do you decide what to do to the CR? Because I'm not seeing what you can pull out of a creatures treasure pile that can equate to giving it full PC WBL gear from head to toe (that's my reference point for a +1 CR value).
Let us say you gave a group of goblin rogues fly and invisibility potions rather than treasure for a CR 2 encounter.
Would that significantly effect the CR of the encounter?
I would say so.
Ok Cr 2 encounter with Goblin Rogues means there's 3 of them right?
(CR 1/2 + 3 = CR 2)
That means they have 550 GP worth of treasure in total.
So how the hell do you find a 3rd level potion and a 2nd level potion for each of them, in a horde of 550 GP? That's like 3150 GP in potions and you haven't paid for even the basic weapons and armor they have listed in their bestiary stat blocks yet. Never mind leaving any room for coins or gems or whatever else.
So no one is proposing anything like this.
For a goblin I'm talking about giving him one tanglefoot bag or acid flask or something, and maybe a cantrip potion, or some caltrops.
Again, I'm not the best with numbers so there may be errors, but nothing big enough to invalidate my point I'm pretty sure.
Edit: Ahh dammit Ninja'd I was proud of that post!
So when you customize enemies, how do you decide what to do to the CR? Because I'm not seeing what you can pull out of a creatures treasure pile that can equate to giving it full PC WBL gear from head to toe (that's my reference point for a +1 CR value).
Let us say you gave a group of goblin rogues fly and invisibility potions rather than treasure for a CR 2 encounter.
Would that significantly effect the CR of the encounter?
I would say so.
CR is always a judgment call, with the bestiary as a guideline. But when you start playing with the guideline baseline...
You don't need to adjust CR if it is fairly minor, which is what JJ said.
But you do if it changes a lot, which is also what he said.
Customizing enemies is great. As I said I do it. I also try to keep in mind if I am increasing or decreasing power with the changes I make.
And unlike Tool Time, I don't always aim for "More power is better!"
I think that creatures are supposed to have that gold value, and it is perfectly fine for them to use it there is just a limit to encounter design which is reasonable for CR. As a GM you do not optimize the hell out off your creatures/NPCs just to squeeze a higher challenge out of low CR creatures, but that is also not really the subject.
If you give a storm giants his treasure in the form of a +2 breastplate and a +1 shocking greatsword and some assorted jewelry. It is not breaking any rules and it is perfectly fine for it's CR.
Having players squeeze through a tiny corridor while you attack them with shadows is not appropriate for the normal CR of shadows.
A medusa on a balcony shooting and using her gaze attack is a fine CR encounter even if she uses a potion of armor, a brooch of shielding, a ring of protection +1 and has a handful of poisoned arrows along with some jewelry and gems. All her stats remain within bounds, she plays to her role and provides a decent challenge to the PCs.
Taking an advanced erinyes and giving her a +1 mithral chain shirt and a potion of barskin for an AC of 34 at CR 9 is probably too much, common sense and boundaries is what dictates CR.
The storm giant example is not the best, as suddenly it has the AC and high damage of a CR 15 encounter, two above its listed one. Not to mention good luck finding someone willing to buy a Huge sized magical greatsword =/
So it is now boiling down to how much you can equip before it counts as cheesy? Personally I don't think a magic sword and armor would be cheesy. Nor do I think such a thing is a good example of a GM who is REALLY GOOD at buffing monsters or bending rules. Clearly the giant should remain his actual CR. Although I wouldn't mess with my players by making the sword unsellable either.
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The storm giant example is not the best, as suddenly it has the AC and high damage of a CR 15 encounter, two above its listed one. Not to mention good luck finding someone willing to buy a Huge sized magical greatsword =/
And this is exactly the point. CR is more art than science, and when you increase the power of an enemy you have to realize you are increasing the power of an enemy.
Does that mean you up CR? Maybe, maybe not. But it does mean you realize you have created an encounter that, at baseline, is harder than the one in the bestiary.
And if that means you throw a little extra XP your players way, or make the terrain more favorable to compensate, etc...your call.
But when you are having a comparative argument and refuse to use the baseline monster so that everyone is working from the same tool box, which is what happened in the thread the OP is mis characterizing...
I almost never use a pure bestiary monster if they have any intelligence at all. But I also understand that changes have effects.
So it is now boiling down to how much you can equip before it counts as cheesy? Personally I don't think a magic sword and armor would be cheesy. Nor do I think such a thing is a good example of a GM who is REALLY GOOD at buffing monsters or bending rules. Clearly the giant should remain his actual CR. Although I wouldn't mess with my players by making the sword unsellable either.
Remember what JJ said was first of all, point blank, NO, the CR does not change according to the rules. Then he went on to say, of course the system isn't perfect and there will be some people who figure out how to do something really OP within the rules or bending the rules, and if you really must do that then it "might be a good idea" to take a look at the bestiary table for creating new creatures and see if your new stat block is maybe looking more like the next CR up.
"might be a good idea".
Not even that it's what you are supposed to do, even then.
And of course he also said, a better solution is don't do anything cheesy to begin with.
The storm giant example is not the best, as suddenly it has the AC and high damage of a CR 15 encounter, two above its listed one. Not to mention good luck finding someone willing to buy a Huge sized magical greatsword =/
Wich is the I think the point of this hole thread. If you change a monster any way check it table 1-1 Page 291 Beastiary 1.
+15 to hit is +15 it dose not matter how you get there.
Also chease work both way down as well would you want full EXP for fighting Blind, and sickened, Shakened monster. At any CR.
The storm giant example is not the best, as suddenly it has the AC and high damage of a CR 15 encounter, two above its listed one. Not to mention good luck finding someone willing to buy a Huge sized magical greatsword =/And this is exactly the point. CR is more art than science, and when you increase the power of an enemy you have to realize you are increasing the power of an enemy.
Does that mean you up CR? Maybe, maybe not. But it does mean you realize you have created an encounter that, at baseline, is harder than the one in the bestiary.
And if that means you throw a little extra XP your players way, or make the terrain more favorable to compensate, etc...your call.
But when you are having a comparative argument and refuse to use the baseline monster so that everyone is working from the same tool box, which is what happened in the thread the OP is mis characterizing...
I almost never use a pure bestiary monster if they have any intelligence at all. But I also understand that changes have effects.
No, giants tend to have more hp and damage output anyway but are fairly weak in other areas, players se a giant and they pretty much know what to expect and they really tend to suck at stealth and ambushes.
The armor increases by 2 the damage increases by 4.5 (maybe) and has +1 to hit, now granted this giant might be tough for a party of level 10, the AC is well within bounds the damage and AB is high, but not sure the sword helped it all that much
In RotRL paizo did MUCH worse with their Warden of Thunder though without increasing it's apparent CR (though I consider that a mistake).
The storm giant example is not the best, as suddenly it has the AC and high damage of a CR 15 encounter, two above its listed one. Not to mention good luck finding someone willing to buy a Huge sized magical greatsword =/Wich is the I think the point of this hole thread. If you change a monster any way check it table 1-1 Page 291 Beastiary 1.
+15 to hit is +15 it dose not matter how you get there.
Except as JJ said, unless your doing something really, reeaalllly, rules-bendingly cheesy, don't even bother. In fact even then it just "might be a good idea".
So when you customize enemies, how do you decide what to do to the CR? Because I'm not seeing what you can pull out of a creatures treasure pile that can equate to giving it full PC WBL gear from head to toe (that's my reference point for a +1 CR value).
Let us say you gave a group of goblin rogues fly and invisibility potions rather than treasure for a CR 2 encounter.
Would that significantly effect the CR of the encounter?
I would say so.
Ok Cr 2 encounter with Goblin Rogues means there's 3 of them right?
(CR 1/2 + 3 = CR 2)
That means they have 550 GP worth of treasure in total.
So how the hell do you find a 3rd level potion and a 2nd level potion for each of them, in a horde of 550 GP? That's like 3150 GP in potions and you haven't paid for even the basic weapons and armor they have listed in their bestiary stat blocks yet. Never mind leaving any room for coins or gems or whatever else.
So no one is proposing anything like this.
For a goblin I'm talking about giving him one tanglefoot bag or acid flask or something, and maybe a cantrip potion, or some caltrops.
Again, I'm not the best with numbers so there may be errors, but nothing big enough to invalidate my point I'm pretty sure.
Edit: Ahh dammit Ninja'd I was proud of that post!
Maybe I made a mistake if they use NPC wealth that 260 each so total hoard = 780 GP.
Still. You spent 3000 on potions.
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The storm giant example is not the best, as suddenly it has the AC and high damage of a CR 15 encounter, two above its listed one. Not to mention good luck finding someone willing to buy a Huge sized magical greatsword =/+2 AC, +1 to hit and d6+1 extra damage is that big a deal?
The cheesy part of that is the gear being useless.
It dose not matter if the gear useful to the party. It only matter how useful it is to monster. If you give a Ork an 100k deed to some ocean front property in Arizona it does not change his CR one bit.
