Just thoughts meandering here...
But it seems to me that a lot of the problems/issues some people have with the class is the name of the class.
I'm not talking about the power balance or lack there-of. That is a completely different issue.
But when someone (especially a newbie) says they want to play the concept of a monk, what they describe usually has little to no resemblance to the monk class. I hear/read things like holy hermit, religious scholar, divine devotee, mystic powers, etc… None of these really match the Monk class. They sound like oracle, cleric, paladin, sorcerer, witch, psion, wilder, etc… Sometimes in novels you see the warrior monk icon. But even then unless it is oriental based novel it matches very poorly with the Monk class (more like a paladin, inquisitor, or psychic warrior usually).
I think clear back in previous editions they tried to duplicate the Shaolin Monk from the TV show. I think they just used the name monk because they didn’t want to associate to directly with the real world. But the class they built was really emphasizing the legendary Shaolin aspect not the Monk aspect.
So for decades we have had dozens of published source material with every chapel (no matter how pacifistic) having a cadre of martial arts experts.
I really wish the folks at Paizo had renamed it the Pugilist class or something like that.
Anyway, just my free form synaptic regurgitation
I'm not sure who you're talking to. In a fantasy setting, when someone says 'monk' they tend to be thinking of martial artists and pugilists. Especially recently, with Diablo 3 being released. At least from the crowd I talk to.
Maybe it's just a local cultural thing where you are?
Or history. Maybe.
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Every time I see someone having a nonmechanical problem with it, then it is because they don't want an "eastern" or "Asian" class in their world. They would have been better off calling it a martial artist.
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I tend to flavor my Monk like the Physical Adept from Shadowrun. They are magic users, but their magic is focused inward. The source of their magic could come from many sources, but the fact that it is based on Wisdom suggests that the source is usually divine. So a deity is possible, or it could just be channelling the power of the natural world, kind of like the Druid.
Not sure what the problem renaming it at your table is...feel free to do so! I tend to have my monk's back story make mention about them leaving their monastery. It's not really a stretch to say X amount of years have passed since they left and they have blended into the culture of where they are somewhat. The only thing from their monastery they have left are their martial arts forms they practice each morning.
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This thread just reminded me that I think monks should ditch the Ki points and just gain Magus level spellcasting from a list of specific spells, from any type, but limited to Ajuration, Divination, and Transmutation schools. Maybe with an archetype that loses Flurry of Blows, but adds some evocation spells and cool spell-like abilities. I suppose I can dream, though...
You could rename it Turd. That would better describe the class.
If you did that Dragonnamedrake then you'd have to let my unarmed strikes sicken or nauseate :) As well as leave a mark!
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Instead of being a Shaolin-esque "Kwai Chang Kain" sort of guy, he could do:
traditional Scottish wrestling
OR
OR
OR
OR
any of the other multitude of fighting styles developed by pretty much any and every civilization on any or from any area of Earth.
It's only Eastern flavor because you choose to make it Eastern in flavor.
If you are looking for a monk who was scholarly and studiously abandoned adventuring to live in solitude in a monastery on a hill, I daresay you are looking more at a Cleric than a Monk.
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European Christian monks and Asian Buddhist monks were pretty similar in every way other than martial arts. They both lived in communal buildings, fasted, and prayed for the majority the day. The only real difference is that when European monks were threatened they built really tall towers to hide in, where as Asian monks learned to kick ass. Which do you think makes the better class?
Actually, many Christian monks were former soldiers and helped train future soldiers. The order of the Knights Templar were ordained monks as well as knights. The similarities were more than you think.
Apparently, I was not very clear again. Sorry.
The word ‘monk’ refers to someone that studies at a monastery.
It strongly implies religious devotion.
It has no intrinsic association with martial arts, eastern or otherwise.
It is a western European term.
It was applied to the asians by early traders.
Not all (or even most depending upon what you read) asian ‘monk’ studied martial arts.
As far as I can tell monk only started to be used for martial arts after the TV series in the 80’s.
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Whenever I read a novel that includes a monk, it is a religious devotee. Even if it is a 'warrior monk' it only rarely has any significant martial art aspect unless it is an obviously oriental themed monk.
For most of the older published material (that I read) that included a monk, the description, fluff, and use matched the european definition of monk. In other words someone that studied in a religious monastery. However, the stat block is an unarmed martial arts expert that has nothing to do with religious studies. Most of them did not even have the knowledge religion skill.
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Whenever I have heard someone new to RPG’s say they want to run something based on the monk concept, it is almost always the European definition. Someone who studies religion at a monastery. If their concept is a warrior monk, it is likely to be the western warrior monk. Meaning heavily armed and armored. Even if they do mean an oriental themed warrior monk that includes unarmed combat. The emphasis in their concept is the religious monastic aspect and the martial aspect is secondary.
Then they see the monk class (in any of the versions) and eventually say ‘what the…’ this has nothing to do with religion, study, or monasteries. It has essentially no connection to the divine like all the other divine classes. To make their ‘monk’ they build a paladin, cleric, or oracle. They usually only include the monk class if they get too hung up on the name rather than what is actually in print.
Maybe it is just me...
Instead of being a Shaolin-esque "Kwai Chang Kain" sort of guy, he could do:
traditional Scottish wrestling
OR
OR
OR
OR
any of the other multitude of fighting styles developed by pretty much any and every civilization on any or from any area of Earth.
It's only Eastern flavor because you choose to make it Eastern in flavor...
And none of those really fit the definition of the term 'monk,' which is a person that studies religion at a monasery.
...If you are looking for a monk who was scholarly and studiously abandoned adventuring to live in solitude in a monastery on a hill, I daresay you are looking more at a Cleric than a Monk.
That was my point if you want to play a monk you play a cleric. If you want to play a martial artist you play a monk.
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Monks exist in the game because people wanted to have a kung-fu mystic that slays dragons with bare hands, and because Gary Gygax was never one to let academic studies in history slow him down.
People who feel a semantic dissonance between the name and its' historical connotations weren't a part of the above equation.
Not sure what the problem renaming it at your table is...feel free to do so!...
It's already in people's head and all the published material. If I use the term monk for an NPC everyone assumes unarmed martial artist. Even if I tell them that, no in this world like the real world it means a studious religious devotee. In there head it is a bare knucles striker.
So everytime I describe such an NPC, I have to say a person that has shut himself away from the world to study religion texts. Or something like that instead of just using the proper term 'monk.'
If I use the term monk for an NPC everyone assumes unarmed martial artist.No we don't.
Ok, still more precise.
If I use the term monk for an NPC, everyone but me in both groups that I play with and (based on reading from the forums) almost everyone that posts on the forums assumes something along the lines of an unarmed martial artist concept though it could be a peculiar fighting style expert that specializes in no armor and many attacks with an odd weapon.
Better. =)
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Much better. Blanket statements tend to be inaccurate. :) You may want to add context that might adjust peoples thinking when you describe them next time. If you describe Friar Tuck, some people should at least clue in to 'not an eastern martial artist'. Or not, people tend to be pretty stubborn that way. ;)
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Much better. Blanket statements tend to be inaccurate. :) You may want to add context that might adjust peoples thinking when you describe them next time. If you describe Friar Tuck, some people should at least clue in to 'not an eastern martial artist'. Or not, people tend to be pretty stubborn that way. ;)
All generalizations are false.
My irony-o-meter just blew its top.
(ironometer?)
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If I use the term monk for an NPC everyone assumes unarmed martial artist.No we don't.Ok, still more precise.
If I use the term monk for an NPC, everyone but me in both groups that I play with and (based on reading from the forums) almost everyone that posts on the forums assumes something along the lines of an unarmed martial artist concept though it could be a peculiar fighting style expert that specializes in no armor and many attacks with an odd weapon.
Better. =)
I'm not seeing a problem?
Calling them religious/monastic scholars could work, or you could just outright say they are monks, and tell them that they are not martially trained if asked.
Clearly a monk. Notice the flurrying with unarmed strikes, and then a staff.
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Indeed. He unloaded like 6 belly bumps before his opponent could even draw a sword.
I'm kinda curious as to what the earliest Dragon articles from the 70s said about the Monk class when they introduced it. (I'm just assuming they started in Dragon, where a lot of D&D's idea were born.)
You know ive wondered why the Monk is the only class that suffers from this. No one ever makes threads talking about how all paladins as knights should be corrupt instruments of the church bent on raping and pillaging the infidels. The image of Knights as Brutish thungs part of the the crusades is ignored in favour of the fantasy hero. If one of my female players came to me and said 'hey i want to be a princess' im not going to imediately insist she be a baby making bargaining piece for her father.
Anyhow this hangup some players have over 'monk' really is silly. The martial sty monk as part of your 'european fantasy game' has been around longer than most of the players complaining about it have been alive.
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I'm playing a monk more or less based on a Friar Tuck model.
He's a worshipper of Cayden Cailean (who else?), and the unarmed combat and quarterstaff as a weapon fit right in. I was tempted by Drunken Master, but that just seemed to be too much Jackie Chan.
OK, so being able to ignore falling damage seems a bit out of place. But there again stereotyping works to my advantage - I've surprised more than one GM when they find out just how good his Stealth & Sleight-of-Hand checks are!
Do you guys also run into a lot of Monk players who think they will be roleplaying obsessive compulsive San Francisco private detectives?
I think of an anthropomorphic bottom dwelling fish that happens to be quite tasty.
I hear you , it broke one of my players heart when he realized the mechanics of the monk had nothing to do with being a tasty fish. The backstory he had written was impeccable.
D&D is hardly medieval.
you have so many genres blended it's a kitchen sink. the monk isn't anywhere near being out of place. i intend to recycle Rex as a Brawler/Martial Artist multiclass in S&S. problem would be that she outdamages the captain, but she doesn't have his defenses.
i could dig up an old post, but i don't feel the motivation.
Apparently, I was not very clear again. Sorry.
The word ‘monk’ refers to someone that studies at a monastery.
It strongly implies religious devotion.
It has no intrinsic association with martial arts, eastern or otherwise.
Where are you getting this information?
Read this.
The typical fantasy setting draws on more then just medieval Europe by now, it's true. Did it ever, exclusively? Probably not. Gygax wasn't crazy about Tolkien and really liked Jack Vance. A lot of gonzo style old-school fantasy games had a post-apocalyptic feel, with the occasional crashed spaceship, and maybe some Lovecraftian horror.
So I think it's always been a mixed bag.
An Asian flavor martial artist monk has had its place in all of this for enough people at least to have showed up in edition after edition of games.
Instead of being a Shaolin-esque "Kwai Chang Kain" sort of guy, he could do:
I would add
Norse/Viking Glima
Greco-Roman Wrestling or Pankration
Neither of which specialize in sai and nunchaku, or perform mystical feats by utilizing a pool of ki.
Neither of which specialize in sai and nunchaku, or perform mystical feats by utilizing a pool of ki.
Glima can use a variety of exotic weapons that can use the same stats as a sai or nunchaku. It also has legends and beliefs of using magical runes to enhance one's prowess. Change ki to runic power and there you go.
Cool idea, I like reskinning stuff. That way you can have the mechanics balanced for you by the pros and still get the flavor you wanted.
I'm kinda curious as to what the earliest Dragon articles from the 70s said about the Monk class when they introduced it. (I'm just assuming they started in Dragon, where a lot of D&D's idea were born.)
Nope. The monk was introduced in TSR 2004, Supplement II, Blackmoor. Dragon wasn't in publication yet (though The Strategic Review was).
Therein they were declared "a sub-class of Clerics which also combines the general attributes of Thief and Fighting Man." They could use "weapons of any sort whatsoever", and had no ki points, though they had the Quivering Palm attack.
You know ive wondered why the Monk is the only class that suffers from this. No one ever makes threads talking about how all paladins as knights should be corrupt instruments of the church bent on raping and pillaging the infidels. The image of Knights as Brutish thungs part of the the crusades is ignored in favour of the fantasy hero.
That's because King Arthur and his knights had better PR men than the Crusaders.
I don't see how anyone can claim it's not oriental, though. Between the uniquely oriental concept of Ki or Qi and the weapon proficiencies it's difficult to build an occidental "monk."
The monk is based on an oriental concept, but in most fantasy worlds the terms oriental and occidental are not really relevant, so it doesn't matter.
Can't use daggers or anything appropriate to an occidental martial artist. No, instead your Scottish wrestler is stuck with sai proficiency and an inability to fight with any occidental weapon other than the quarterstaff. There's not even an archetype. The closest is the Sohei, which is restricted to oriental monk weapons for flurry until level 6, and is still restricted from flurrying with popular weapons like daggers.
Then make an archetype that sums up what you want to present. That's what archetypes are for.