Succubus vs. Detect Evil


Advice

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Sovereign Court

She could claim that she wasn't evil, but that the mirror was meant to slowly make her evil; fortunately she was freed in time and her transformation isn't complete yet. She wants to become pure and good again.

A succubus has a pretty good Bluff check. Also, Charisma 27 naked woman. If the rest of the party isn't restraining the inquisitor "because they want to hear her story", they're not being honest with you.

I really like the Long Con idea given above. Don't let her do anything evil; never ask the party to do anything evil; no obviously evil side-effects. But anyone who wants to play on Team Evil needs to respect her, because she'll rat out any evil guy who doesn't obey her.

In the ideal scenario, the inquisitor will never trust her, but the other characters do; everything points to her being really redeemed. She's one of the best allies they had. So when whatever long-term plan she worked on is finally exposed, he'll go "I told you so!"


BTW, how experienced are your players? Detect Evil has nothing on "Dangerously Genre Savvy" paranoid players.


Wolfsnap wrote:
KrispyXIV wrote:
Is the inquisitor good?
Lawful neutral with a history of actively hunting down demons and undead with extreme prejudice. High will save. Totally humorless (The character, not the player) and utterly paranoid. He's like a Succubus' worst nightmare. :P

I find it funny how many people just wanna shaft the Inquisitor for actually using abilities that an Inquisitor gets AND IS SUPPOSED TO USE. Because of that, I say ignore the advice of the others, let this guy detect that the Succubus is evil (which she probably is) and give him and the party a chance to kill her when you feel the time is right. Simple as that, and no need to torment players and abuse your power as DM. Besides, you just showed that he's the best bet when it comes to tracking down the darn thing, so why not let him do his job?!

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

@brreitz,

That was a thing of beauty. It doesn't nerf the inquisitor's abilities, it doesn't betray the creature's nature, and opens up countless oportunities. Heck, they might even redeem the succubus.

I'd also add letting her occasionally back-slide, because it's expected. Charm a merchant into 'giving' her a nice dress, then when called out she's all apologetic and begging for forgiveness/begging for death. Party needs info from someone? Suggest he talk to them and give them the info. Major fight planned? Give the bad guys an extra mid-level mook she can dominate to attack his allies, brutally and cruely. Bonus if you can describe her um, enjoying, watching the bloodshed. Nothing major, no charming virgins and bathing in their blood. Just little things showing evil is quicker, faster, more efficient.

The Inquisitor's abilities and violent reactions are perfectly fine. However if she can corrupt the rest of the party, they'll be defending her w/o controlling a single one.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

@Icyshadow.

There's a difference between using those abilities, and relying on them. We're talking about one encounter, not every one. A lot of the suggestions are not nerfing the ability, but dealing with the reprecussions. From lying about the cause "The mirror was turning me into a demon, but you saved me!" to admitting the effect but getting out of it. "I know I'm a demon and detect as evil, but I'm trying to be good. That's why I was imprisoned in the mirror!" Even the 'nerf the ability' arguments are only for this encounter, not for every encounter.

Scarab Sages

Let me reiterate that I don't want to shaft the PC who designed his character for rooting out these kinds of dangers, and I don't want to turn this encounter into a campaign-changing event. I just think that this relatively random monster could develop into a more interesting villain and I would like the encounter to last more than five minutes.

If I don't get at least a little creative here, then the minute she pops out of the mirror, it'll be "Detect Evil, True Sight, Splat."

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Something more mundane, Wolfsnap.

She knows X info, and killing her they won't get it. If they promise to let her go, she actually gives them the information. Now it's up to the players to a) trust what she's saying and b) honour their word.

(Aside, you want her to give them the real info, else the players will be trained to assume every evil NPC is lying, may as well kill them.)


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Matthew Morris wrote:

@Icyshadow.

There's a difference between using those abilities, and relying on them. We're talking about one encounter, not every one. A lot of the suggestions are not nerfing the ability, but dealing with the reprecussions. From lying about the cause "The mirror was turning me into a demon, but you saved me!" to admitting the effect but getting out of it. "I know I'm a demon and detect as evil, but I'm trying to be good. That's why I was imprisoned in the mirror!" Even the 'nerf the ability' arguments are only for this encounter, not for every encounter.

You know what? I dare the DM to use this as a plot point. Make her sincerely struggling to be good. Hell, the guys at Wizards of the Coast did a statblock for a Succubus Paladin back in the glorious days of 3.5e, and I would not mind that at all if I were a player. It would also foil that Inquisitor's plan, but it would NOT seem like a cheap blow below the belt towards him either, unlike most of the other choices seemed to be.


brreitz wrote:

Have the party see the mirror, and the women trapped inside. At this point, they can't tell from her true nature - while in the mirror, she's undetectable.

(Another possibility - perhaps her evil nature can be detected, but while in the mirror it's impossible to tell the source of the evil. Is it an evil woman trapped in a mirror, or an innocent trapped in an evil mirror? If the later is even a possibility, a good party should be strongly motivated to free her from the mirror.)

After she's free, she plays it cool. She does not attack the party. If the Inquisitor calls her out on her evil nature, she begs them to treat her with kindness - she's had plenty of time to repent her evil ways while trapped in the mirror. She's still a demon and detects as such, but her heart, she pleads, has turned away from the path of darkness.

This makes sense. Trapped without physical form or sensation would be a shock for a something as carnal as a succubus. Perhaps it could even redeem such a creature. Angels can fall, demons could rise, right?

...

It's a con, of course. A long con. Maybe the party holds and listens to her tale of woe, and she'll offer any service she can. Well, almost any service. She's a "good girl" now, and needs the party's help on her path to redemption. No charms or dominates, no energy drains or vampiric touchs. No seduction. Maybe the party attacks, in which case she shifts to the ethereal to watch for the next best moment in which to help. To prove herself.

She can offer quite a bit, outside of her obvious succubi talents. She's a master negotiator who can shapeshift and speak any tongue - perfect for getting out of trouble with the city guard, or scoring a great deal from the magic weapon shop. She can transport items through the ethereal, assist in battle, and use her telepathy to keep the party connected. Once the party trusts her, she may even offer her profane gift (she'll warn them of the danger, of course. "Do you trust me? I understand if you don't. Who would trust a monster...

Why not substitute an erineyes for a succubus and play off the whole angel thing?

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Icyshadow wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

@Icyshadow.

There's a difference between using those abilities, and relying on them. We're talking about one encounter, not every one. A lot of the suggestions are not nerfing the ability, but dealing with the reprecussions. From lying about the cause "The mirror was turning me into a demon, but you saved me!" to admitting the effect but getting out of it. "I know I'm a demon and detect as evil, but I'm trying to be good. That's why I was imprisoned in the mirror!" Even the 'nerf the ability' arguments are only for this encounter, not for every encounter.

You know what? I dare the DM to use this as a plot point. Make her sincerely struggling to be good. Hell, the guys at Wizards of the Coast did a statblock for a Succubus Paladin back in the glorious days of 3.5e, and I would not mind that at all if I were a player. It would also foil that Inquisitor's plan, but it would NOT seem like a cheap blow below the belt towards him either, unlike most of the other choices seemed to be.

That's actually one of my favourite plot points as well, redemption over destruction. In the scenario above he's looking for a way to turn it from 'detect and kill'.

A couple 'redemption' scenarios:

Spoiler:

1) What I jokingly call 'clerical error' a good adventurer dies in the abyss and her soul is crafted into part of/all of a succubus. There is good in her, but it needs help to remember.
2) A succubus who is trying to understand 'mercy' and 'love'. Initially to better do her 'job' she actually begins to feel those emotions.
3) A Coloxus (bestiary III) demon who decides to be a diplomat for a mortal, upholding the virtue of honesty.
4) A Schir who is trying to make amends for its previous acts of pettiness.
5) An Eryness, who is trying to understand forgiveness.

A number of those lend themselves to the 'wait, you go in and slaughter the goblins, and that's good, but I go slaughter halflings and that's bad?' scenarios.


The real problem is not concealing her evil aura, but explaining it. There have been numerous posts on magical ways to conceal her aura and that works if that is what you are going for. But what about a mundane disguise of something that would have a reason to have an evil aura that he would not automatically kill outright. Since a cleric takes the aura of the deities alignment instead of their own a chaotic neutral cleric of a chaotic evil deity will detect as chaotic evil.

She could be disguised as a high priestess of some evil deity. It would be even better if the deity is somewhat accepted but looked down upon. If not for the chaotic neutral alignment Calistria would be perfect. Lady Nanbyo from the Dragon Empires may work as she has the right alignment.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
EvilMinion wrote:
Tieflings are outsiders, thus fall under the 'aligned outsider' category.

All Dogs are canines but not all canines are dogs.

Elementals are outsiders, they would not ping. Outsiders only ping to aligment spells if they are

a) strongly aligned
b) have a class with an aura
c) have an alignment subtype in addition to their main type such as (Outsider, Evil)

Tieflings Dhampirs, and Asimars all fail case C.


Succubus Inquisitor (Infiltrator) of Calistria.
Serving the nasty, vengeful side of the divine Cheerleader queen.

Maybe she got locked in by her last target.

level 1: Luck Domain, healing Judgement (so she gets fast healing 1)
Armed with a +1 keen rapier, elven chain, maybe a heavy mithril shield.
Poses as an elven inquisitor.

Note the items above ARE her treasure. Definitely CR 8 worthy. (I figure her charm/dominate are around DC 25)


Inquisitor casts detect evil.

Succubus succeeds at Spellcraft.

"Oh. I know what you're going to say. I know what you see. I understand. But you need to know you're detecting this body, not me. I wasn't born in this body. I was born a trumpet archon. Unfortunately I was seduced by this... demon. She used an unusual ability while I was less-than-sensible. She did something called mind swap. It's a psionic thing. You may have heard of it, but even if you haven't you can can imagine how it works and... how often I have to explain this."

Succubus succeeds at Bluff.

Party gets to role-play while the players don't buy it at all.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Something I want to add. (Not that the OP is thinking this)

If they decide to kill her, *let them* I mean if she can get initiative and etheral jaunt that's fine. But she is evil and cutting her down is an option. Just like letting her live and corrupt the party is an option. Killing her can lead to more story seeds. What happens when they encounter a half-fiend? What happens if they encounter a fallen archon (which will detect as good)? In the campaign is redemption possible? (It doesn't have to be likely, but possible).

To use the inquisitor I plan to play as an example:

Spoiler:
As a heretic, he is ostracized from his church. He knows he's not fallen from his goddess, since she still grants his spells. He is driven by mercy and will parley with pretty much anything living (He sees the undead as mockeries trapping the vestiges of a spirit. Not killing them extends their suffering). He is going to do the sense motive/detect evil combo on our hypothetical succubus, but he will offer her redemption. If she succeeds in playing him and killing, then it's not that he did an evil act in trying to provide her another option.


LazarX wrote:
EvilMinion wrote:
Tieflings are outsiders, thus fall under the 'aligned outsider' category.

All Dogs are canines but not all canines are dogs.

Elementals are outsiders, they would not ping. Outsiders only ping to aligment spells if they are

a) strongly aligned
b) have a class with an aura
c) have an alignment subtype in addition to their main type such as (Outsider, Evil)

Tieflings Dhampirs, and Asimars all fail case C.

[Off-topic I know, but...]

You are basing this on what?

The alignment spells trigger based on
a) creature type: Undead or Outsider with an alignment other then neutral
b) aura class feature
or, failing all those c) the creature's alignment

The strength of the aura detected then depending on the HD of the creature involved.

This is directly from the spell description.

Subtype is not part of the equation.


I would say based on the RAW not nerfing the pc, but the I would say he is not in the same area as the succubus. Thus can detect her until she comes out the mirror. Once she is out he can detect her fair game. "The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it." consider dirt blocks the spell. I would say her being trap in another extra denominational space as the item description says. The space would block it. Other wise he would be picking stuff from the astral and ethereal planes all the time. He taking a chance looking in the mirror to be sucked in him self unless all chambers are full.


Well, are the PCs attacking the succubus as soon as she's out of the mirror? If the she can see the PCs she can turn ethereal before being released and even act as a ghost, or she can ready action and teleport away as soon as she's out. Otherwise she'll have to rely on initiative. If she's indeed in temporal stasis as she is supposed to be under imprisonment spell, she could still have a disguise on her self. What about some (in)famous celebrity oracle/cleric/whatever divine character that would detect with the same aura strength. A representative of a deity who's allied to some of the PC's own patrons perhaps?

Liberty's Edge

Matthew Morris wrote:
If they decide to kill her, *let them*

So very true. I've had lots of villainous NPCs intended to be recurring, but were slain by the odd combo of high Init and critical hits. And that's good! It made the players feel lucky and awesome!

And if you want to play her off has evil-evil, have her show up, try to make nice, then start charming and dominating PCs one by one, leaving the Inquisitor (and who ever else made the save) to fend off their teammates (not advised if your party is particularly murderous).

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