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The Lightning Reload Deed states that you can only reload a single barrel of a firearm as a Swift action once per round.
Does this "once per round" restriction also apply to the Free action reload you can do if you have the Rapid Reload feat?
If so, does that mean that using Alchemical Cartridges is the ONLY way to do a full attack action at high BAB?
RaizielDragon wrote: If so, does that mean that using Alchemical Cartridges is the ONLY way to do a full attack action at high BAB? Yes
Skerek wrote: RaizielDragon wrote: If so, does that mean that using Alchemical Cartridges is the ONLY way to do a full attack action at high BAB? Yes No. It doesn't say "as a free action once per round", it says "as a free action each round". If they meant once per round, like the swift action part, they would have said it.
They haven't FAQed or errataed it because the definitions of the terms speak for themselves. "Once per round" is quite literally "one time each round", while "per round" is literally "each round". With no limit stated, it's an unsupported assumption if no limit is assumed to be a limit of once.
The best a GM could do to limit Lightning Reload to once per round when the player can legally reduce the load time to a free action while using the deed is to limit the number of free actions a creature can take in a round to one, which limits all creatures to one free action per round, and eliminated the distinction between free and swift actions, or admit they are making a house rule that adds "once" to the description of Lightning Reload, so it reads "as a free action once per round".
JustynThyme wrote: Skerek wrote: RaizielDragon wrote: If so, does that mean that using Alchemical Cartridges is the ONLY way to do a full attack action at high BAB? Yes No. It doesn't say "as a free action once per round", it says "as a free action each round". If they meant once per round, like the swift action part, they would have said it.
They haven't FAQed or errataed it because the definitions of the terms speak for themselves. "Once per round" is quite literally "one time each round", while "per round" is literally "each round". With no limit stated, it's an unsupported assumption if no limit is assumed to be a limit of once.
The best a GM could do to limit Lightning Reload to once per round when the player can legally reduce the load time to a free action while using the deed is to limit the number of free actions a creature can take in a round to one, which limits all creatures to one free action per round, and eliminated the distinction between free and swift actions, or admit they are making a house rule that adds "once" to the description of Lightning Reload, so it reads "as a free action once per round". I have to admit that's badly phrased, however you want to read it. First, "as a swift action once per round", is pretty redundant, since you only get one swift action anyway. (Nitpick: There are ways of getting another swift action, but they're not really enough to make this broken without the "once per round", since they're generally expensive or limited.)
Then saying "each round" instead of "once per round" for the free action is confusing. If it's not intended to mean "once per round", the "each round" is redundant. If it is, it's not entirely clear.
Interestingly, by your interpretation of the text, using this deed, a non-musket master gunslinger could reload a two-handed firearm as a free action and thus get his iteratives, even without alchemical cartridges. That can't be done any other way, even with them.
Still, I'm pretty sure that the intent is for the "each round" to mean "once per round". What else could it mean, other than nothing at all?
I'm not certain what Justynthyme is referring to, but a comment which might be on point: alchemical cartridges do not seem to interact with lightning reload - the description makes no mention of changing the reloading speed of swift actions.
Lightning Reload seems to be used for situations where you'll be firing one shot, but still need your move action economy and don't want to use an alchemical shot. For instance, you could combine it with the Bullseye Shot feat (spend a move action to get +4 attack on a ranged attack roll before the end of your turn) or the Dead Shot deed (combine all your BAB attacks into a single shot as a full-round action). This can be useful for specialty ammo (ie. adamantine bullet for DR purposes). But for a full-attack of multiple shots, Rapid Reload + Alchemical is your workhorse for reloading purposes; Lightning Reload is for niche purposes as stated above.
Psst... This thread was over 2 years old.
A lot has happened since then. Even an errata document.
Please look at the date of the last post before you reply to a thread.
Nefreet wrote: Psst... This thread was over 2 years old.
A lot has happened since then. Even an errata document.
Please look at the date of the last post before you reply to a thread.
Oh I didn't realize this thread was also a necro. So Justynthyme can through and spammed the same post on 3 old threads. Tacky.
Still, is there actually a FAQ or errata (or even a dev statement) that deals with this point? Or is there just consensus that Lightning reload only gives one reload/round, swift or free?
Nothing has changed in reagard to this useless deed or the useless deadshot deed for the matter
They aren't useless; they just have highly circumstantial uses. People often utilize Deadshot for when they need specialty ammo and want to condense their attack into a single expensive bullet. Lightning Reload works along with that, especially for a 2-h firearm since the reload speed is brought down to swift regardless of the original reload speed.
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Lightning Reload is still useful for those non-Musket Masters who want more than 1 shot per round with their two-handed firearm.
Nefreet wrote: Psst... This thread was over 2 years old.
A lot has happened since then. Even an errata document.
Please look at the date of the last post before you reply to a thread.
I necroed it to try to get an official response. You say there's been an errata that settles this issue? Proof? Where's the link? I would very much appreciate seeing the ruling. Thanks!
Nefreet wrote: Lightning Reload is still useful for those non-Musket Masters who want more than 1 shot per round with their two-handed firearm. Non-Musket Master gunslingers can already get their full attack rate with a two-handed firearm, with the very clear wording of the first sentence of Lightning Reload. Reloading as a swift action is all that's necessary, plus Dead Shot. You even save on ammo over actually firing for each of your attacks, and you have a smaller chance to misfire, or of your weapon exploding. If you take Signature Deed: Dead Shot, by fulfilling the requirements of Lightning Reload, you are fulfilling the feat-adjusted requirements of Dead Shot, too.
Full BAB rate of fire is a big part of why this is important, but so is attacks of opportunity. Say the gunslinger takes Snap Shot. They can't make an attack of opportunity with a firearm without their weapon being loaded - or the ability to load as a free action.
Anyway, what prompted me to necro this (and two other threads on the topic) was because my GM made a ruling that until an official word is released on this, I can't make a gunslinger (Bolt Ace excluded). Comments by an employee, FAQ entries, and errata are prompted by these things being discussed. So, thanks for helping me bring it back into the light. :)
As a heads-up, I will be bumping this thread (and the other two) once a week, until it gets a Paizo comment, or it gets locked. :)
JustynThyme wrote: Nefreet wrote: Lightning Reload is still useful for those non-Musket Masters who want more than 1 shot per round with their two-handed firearm. Non-Musket Master gunslingers can already get their full attack rate with a two-handed firearm, with the very clear wording of the first sentence of Lightning Reload. Reloading as a swift action is all that's necessary, plus Dead Shot. You even save on ammo over actually firing for each of your attacks, and you have a smaller chance to misfire, or of your weapon exploding. If you take Signature Deed: Dead Shot, by fulfilling the requirements of Lightning Reload, you are fulfilling the feat-adjusted requirements of Dead Shot, too.
Full BAB rate of fire is a big part of why this is important, but so is attacks of opportunity. Say the gunslinger takes Snap Shot. They can't make an attack of opportunity with a firearm without their weapon being loaded - or the ability to load as a free action. Dead Shot isn't really a full attack. You only add the base damage dice for each "hit", not the static bonuses.
thejeff wrote: Dead Shot isn't really a full attack. You only add the base damage dice for each "hit", not the static bonuses. True, but it seems to me that that is a small price to pay for a smaller chance to misfire, no chance that your weapon will explode, and saving tons of cash. If you have a lot of additional damage you can do, then it becomes less attractive, but if you are low on ammo, it's your best friend. :)
JustynThyme wrote: As a heads-up, I will be bumping this thread (and the other two) once a week, until it gets a Paizo comment, or it gets locked. :) Don't bump three threads asking the same question. You could find enough topics to spam the first few pages with nothing but unresolved rules questions if you wanted. You're not the first person to really really want a developer response. If you want to reiterate how frequently the question has been asked, start a new thread and provide links to the previous threads on the topic.
Anyway, a gunslinger can get by just fine without using lightning reload. I don't see why your GM wouldn't let you play one if you ignored that deed.
Rhatahema wrote: Anyway, a gunslinger can get by just fine without using lightning reload. I don't see why your GM wouldn't let you play one if you ignored that deed. The disagreement he and I have is whether a gunslinger can get their full rate of fire with a two-handed firearm or not, and whether they can make attacks of opportunity (with things like the Snap Shot feat). Both require loading as a free action. He thinks no gunslinger should be able to, so I'm betting he'd just ban the class if a dev says they can with that deed.
Just make a Musket Master, and your problems are solved.
They can reload two-handed firearms as a free action, eventually.
JustynThyme wrote: Rhatahema wrote: Anyway, a gunslinger can get by just fine without using lightning reload. I don't see why your GM wouldn't let you play one if you ignored that deed. The disagreement he and I have is whether a gunslinger can get their full rate of fire with a two-handed firearm or not, and whether they can make attacks of opportunity (with things like the Snap Shot feat). Both require loading as a free action. He thinks no gunslinger should be able to, so I'm betting he'd just ban the class if a dev says they can with that deed. Regardless of the intent of lightning reload, you can already reduce reloading down to a free action through the fast musket deed, rapid reload, and alchemical cartridges.
If your GM won't allow gunslingers if they're able to reload as a free action, then why the sense of urgency over getting a developer response? If the only answer your GM will accept is "no", then what good would it do you? Consider building around dead shot and working with your GM to revise the firearm rules to something you can both tolerate.
Rhatahema wrote: Regardless of the intent of lightning reload, you can already reduce reloading down to a free action through the fast musket deed, rapid reload, and alchemical cartridges.
If your GM won't allow gunslingers if they're able to reload as a free action, then why the sense of urgency over getting a developer response? If the only answer your GM will accept is "no", then what good would it do you? Consider building around dead shot and working with your GM to revise the firearm rules to something you can both tolerate.
Fast Musket is only available to Musket Masters, not all gunslingers. AT first, he banned that archetype. Then when I pointed out that a vanilla gunslinger could do it, too, he said I couldn't make one until Lightning Reload was clarified.
Just because I am willing to bet he'd ban the class if he doesn't like the answer, that doesn't mean he will. He's surprised me before, he could again.
Again, to get the full attack rate and to be able to make attacks of opportunity, Dead Shot is insufficient. You have to have Lightning Reload, because there isn't any other way to reduce a two-handed firearm reload time from a full-round to a free action.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
I'm the GM in question, and I think that full BAB with a two-handed firearm is overpowered for the game I'm running. Hence, I banned the Musket Master archetype. Justinthyme insist Lightning Reload gives full BAB with two-handers to all gunslingers, so I need to ban the whole class.
I see the Lightning Reload wording as pretty clearly indicating that you get one reload as a free action each round, but Justin insists it's unlimited reloads. So I've just banned him from playing one.
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JustynThyme wrote: Rhatahema wrote: Regardless of the intent of lightning reload, you can already reduce reloading down to a free action through the fast musket deed, rapid reload, and alchemical cartridges.
If your GM won't allow gunslingers if they're able to reload as a free action, then why the sense of urgency over getting a developer response? If the only answer your GM will accept is "no", then what good would it do you? Consider building around dead shot and working with your GM to revise the firearm rules to something you can both tolerate.
Fast Musket is only available to Musket Masters, not all gunslingers. AT first, he banned that archetype. Then when I pointed out that a vanilla gunslinger could do it, too, he said I couldn't make one until Lightning Reload was clarified.
Just because I am willing to bet he'd ban the class if he doesn't like the answer, that doesn't mean he will. He's surprised me before, he could again.
Again, to get the full attack rate and to be able to make attacks of opportunity, Dead Shot is insufficient. You have to have Lightning Reload, because there isn't any other way to reduce a two-handed firearm reload time from a full-round to a free action. Not once your GM bans Musket Masters to stop you from doing just that, anyway. Otherwise, you can go right ahead and get your full attacks and AoOs.
Regardless, I would suggest not trying an end run around your GM. YMMV, but I find it rarely works and just adds unnecessary conflict.
Silthe wrote: I'm the GM in question, and I think that full BAB with a two-handed firearm is overpowered for the game I'm running. Hence, I banned the Musket Master archetype. Justinthyme insist Lightning Reload gives full BAB with two-handers to all gunslingers, so I need to ban the whole class.
I see the Lightning Reload wording as pretty clearly indicating that you get one reload as a free action each round, but Justin insists it's unlimited reloads. So I've just banned him from playing one.
Lightning Reload only works once per round, regardless of whether it's a swift action or coupled with alchemical cartridge/rapid reload to get it down to a free action. In essence, the line that allows you to get it down to a free action only changes the action type, not the limitation of once per round. So even with unlimited free actions per round or any special ability that grants additional swift actions, you can only utilize this deed once per round.
PS: Keep in mind that a misfire will, effectively, shut down any full-attack since it takes a full/standard/move depending on whether he's got quick-clear or not and, if he does, whether he's willing to spend a point on it. It'd have to be a pretty dire circumstance to risk having your gun blow up by firing it before you've cleared it.
hey JustynThyme some tips:
-Play a paladin archer, they deal more damage than gunslingers.
-If your gm bans paladins, play a fighter archer, they deal more damage than gunslinger.
-At this point probably your dm will ban ranged combat, at which point you can play a slayer or barbarian which also deal more damage than the gunslinger.
bonus tip: Plus on all of the above options you dont spend feats on not sucking
Having played a Musket Master to 12 in PFS, I can attest that I rarely ever got off a full attack until I was able to afford a Greater Reliable Musket (which wasn't until 11th level). People discount misfire rates too much. They shut you down, and the more attacks you get the more likely you are to misfire. It's a serious hindrance, and not one that archers have to worry about.
Even a Greater Reliable Double Barrel Musket still misfires on a 1 when using cartridges. And you have to spend an extra feat on it, since errata fixed Musket Masters to have only Rapid Reload (Musket).
Unless you are planning on taking this game to 11th-13th level or higher, allowing Gunslingers shouldn't impact your game. If they don't fit the setting, that's one thing, but when it comes to being overpowered, a Gunslinger really isn't.
Or, as a middle ground, look at the Bolt Ace. A Gunslinger who uses Crossbows. It needs some GM adjudication, because it has some quirks, but it may be what you're both looking for.
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