One player of mine asked to buy an item of permanent "Shield" spell, and i answered it isn't in the corebook, so he would have had to made a custom one.
We looked at the item creation table for a "continuos spell effect" item, and by rules it would seem such an item only costs 4000 gp (CL[1]xspell level[1]x2000 x2[spell its duration is measured in minutes/level])=4000 market price, so only 2000 production.
My doubt is that such item is unbalancing (permanent +4 shield bonus and immunity to magic missiles)and since there isn't one in the already-made items maybe it is because it cannot be done,but rules don't specifically deny it.
A +2 heavy shield also costs 4000gp, so he's only gaining immunity to magic missile at the cost of another magic item slot.
Since it isn't in the book, you can still rule what item slot it takes up, perhaps a vital one, like their cloak, belt, or bracers slot.
When a spell duplicates a bonus with another pricing (a bonus to AC for example) you should check that pricing as well, direct spell to item costs are fairly often very cheap.
A flat enhancement bonus would be the better pricing possibility. Also note that as a force effect the custom item would essentially have Ghost Touch as well as blocking magic missile spell effects. The custom item is probably somewhere around the 25000 gp mark.
I would advise against allowing players to make custom magic item - the guidelines certainly don't fit in all cases, and some spells are much more unbalanced than others. I think they even suggest in the guidelines that all this should be subject to GM-approval.
If a player wants to make a custom item, take a look at the pricing of similar items to get an idea of what it would cost. For your example, a Ring of Force Shield seems to be the closest thing. It gives a +2 shield bonus to AC, and costs 8000. This would suggest that allowing a ring of permanent shield for 4000 would be too powerful for the money.
I looked at that ring, and so my doubt; it is much less powerful and costs almost double.
I would look to the ring of force shield as a cost example. A people manent shield spell does a few things.
Slotless +4 AC item this alone using the heavy shield example is worth 8k gold.
It adds its AC vs incorporeal attacks
Immunity to magic missiles.
So using the rules find tow items that do the incorporeal and mm thing increase their cost 50% and add that to 8000 and see if you feel that's worth it.
Ring of force shield doesn't do the magic missile bit thpugh
I would advise against denying players the ability to make custom magic items. Otherwise you might want to tell them to not bother with the crafting feats up front.
That said, it's the GM's job to price things. If you're using the table, make sure you start at the top. Just because it's a spell doesn't change that. You should always take a close look at anything duplicating a personal range spell though.
A permanent shield spell would be duplicating a +2 ghost touch shield, which is already expensive, with the extra benefit of immunity to magic missiles (as has already been pointed out), so it should be priced as such.
Step one: take the ring of force shield as a base. Double the price for double effect
Step two: Take the amulett or whatever that absorbs magic missiles (can't remember the name) and do the math how much that would cost if it was unlimited (or at least some charges per day instead of total charges) and add that to the price
Step three: Decide if it is a slot item or a slotless. If it's slotless multiply accordingly.
Step four: Ask you player if he still wants to craft that item.
Step one: take the ring of force shield as a base. Double the price for double effect
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
Seriously, it's quadruple cost for double effect. same as everything else.
second, don't use spells for persistent numerical bonuses. Use Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.
shield bonus should probably be priced at 1,000 gp like an armor bonus rather than the more expensive "other", so...16k, ballpark figure.
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I personally wouldn’t allow it, either the item at a low cost or the shieldless shield bonuses. Not only are the rules are pretty consistent when it comes to granting permanent bonuses but by allowing different types, you can run into trouble later on.
With armor, enhancement, deflection, natural armor and dexterity bonuses it’s already pretty easy to get a good AC. By allowing exceptions like this, you run the risk of alienating the other players if they can’t have it, or breaking the balance of the game if the can.
While I do like it when my PCs get creative, if you’re not careful it can easily get out of hand and turn into abuse. Besides, the item creation feats are already pretty strong by letting PC’s get their gear at half cost.
How is a heavy shield equivalent to a slotless item? It requires proficiency, it has spell failure, and it requires a hand. In no way is this a suitable pricing guideline for an actual slotless item.
A slotless bonus that merely granted a +4 shield bonus, even without incorporeal and magic missile protection, should be a LOT more expensive than a heavy shield, as far a I can see.
I would be leaning towards the area of 25000 myself, though really I don't think I would allow this item at all (the game is balanced around the items that already exist to boost AC, and such an item could further invalidate actual shield-using characters - and it's not like they're that optimal to begin with.)
If he wants a permanent shield spell? Minimum 32K. Personally, I'd lean towards 37K. And this equation changes dramatically based on what he's after BTW...
Closest relative I can see is a Ring of Force Shield. Based on that, a +2 Shield bonus to AC (with 0 encumberance, 0 ASF, and no feat requirement) is costed at 8.5K. Amulet of Nat armour +2 is also 8K so around the same bonus and same(ish) base cost. Scale up the amulet to +4 and it's 32K. Round up the to 33K to account for the difference between the Ring vs the Amulet's base cost.
Roll into that that you now also have a permanent brooch of shielding (1.5K base). Isn't it 1.5 times cost for an 'additional' magical effect? So 2.25K for that and your already breaking 35K and you haven't taken into account that brooches of shielding are charged items and this is not.
Before that seems high, I don't know what class the char is playing. 40K for a permanent version of a level 1 spell that is on his list is probably a rip off. Monks, Barbarians, Rangers and Rogues however are NOT well known for having a shield bonus to begin with. Even on a fighter, it makes an EXCELLENT item for someone who wants to take ray shield feat / chain. Disintegrate? Take it on the shield and re-form as a free action.
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Permanent shield should not be 4,000 gold, I am sure there are other threads on this but.. mixing up a few different PoV I would estimate the price by.
Compare it to bracers of armor, it should have a CL of 8 at least and cost 16,000 gold for an armor bonus.
The interesting bit here is that it isn't actually much more expensive than a continuous mage armor, it would be 16,000 gold for a CL 8 armor if it had a 24 hour duration and 24,000 gold for 10 minutes per lvl, it probably should be somewhere in between but 1 hour/lvl isn't in the table it can go either way in this case it is cheaper, since it is so easy to get without investing in an item presumably.
A shield spell, estimated at CL 8 would be fair by the same standards, multiplied by 2 since it is a minute/lvl duration, it comes down to 32,000 gold, but.. it is usually a personal use spell, while that is hard to estimate I'd round it up to 36,000 gold.
A ring of force shield seems to be close enough at 8,500 gold quite expensive for it's primary purpose (providing a shield bonus), though there are some other situational uses I will ignore them for now, the 500 gold as well as the fact that you still need to wield it should handle that. 8,000 gold for a +2 shield bonus, would translate to roughly 32,000 gold for a +4 bonus but wouldnt include magic missile immunity unlimited brooch probably twice the price at least which is 3,000 gold - price would be 35,500 gold for a force shield with +4 shield bonus and magic missile immunity by my estimation, 37,000 if you want to add the 50% cost for extra enchantments.
Seems fair enough to put it down at 36,500 gold, with a CL of 8 in my opinion. 32,000 for the shield bonus and 4,500 for unlimited brooch of shielding, though I might make that 3,000 gold since it is thematic and copies the shield spell for a total of 35,000.
I'd allow the shield to be upgraded up to +6, a bit less than bracers of armor, a +5 ring of shielding would be 53,000 gold, +6 would be 75,000 gold. A weaker ring would be +1 for 5,000 gold, +2 for 11,000 gold or +3 for 21,000 gold.
If I'd go with the more expensive version it would be :
+1 for 6,000 gold, +2 for 12,500 gold, +3 for 22,500, +4 for 36,500, +5 for 54,500, +6 for 76,500. I am more inclined to use this version since I do not want a shield bonus to become a common source of AC bonus unless you actually wield a shield (or can cast a shield spell).
Of course the shield effect would only work against attacks from the front and not the rear
As the spell description clearly state that it creates a force effect in front of the caster
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Of course the shield effect would only work against attacks from the front and not the rear
As the spell description clearly state that it creates a force effect in front of the caster
Not in Pathfinder. There's no facing, no front/rear/sides in combat. You are a cylinder.
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As for the pricing. Whenever there already exists a published item that does the same thing (or less) than a custom item, the custom item should cost at least as much as the existing item.
Here's my thinking on this item:
There are three possible base bonuses to examine -
1) Armour Bonus (Enhancement) at bonus squared x 1000
2) Armour Bonus (Deflection) at bonus squared x 2000
3) Armour Bonus (Other) at bonus squared x 2500
This item is not enhancing an existing shield, but it does function (more or less) like Bracers of Armour (with a few extras that I'll come to). The whole point of the Shield spell is to provide an AC bonus to spellcaster's that stacks with Mage Armour. Since an argument could be made that the AC bonus provided functions like a deflection bonus (since it protects gainst incorporeal attacks), that pricing structure is also worth a look. And since it is not providing a "rare" bonus type, I can't quite see it being "Other".
However, it is NOT a deflection bonus, and will stack with them, and with armour bonuses. Due to the likelihood of stacking, I would be tempted to go with the Deflection pricing. I'm going to cover both options, though.
This puts it at 16,000/32,000 gp for the base item
The Shield spell also provides immunity to Magic Missile. The closest other item is the Brooch of Shielding, at 1500 gp. This is a use activated 1st level spell, 1st level caster, 1 min per level item, which throws up a base permanent cost of 4,000 gp (and, reverse engineering the Brooch, if we halve the cost for a 50 charge item, then further reduce the cost due to it having an average of 35.35 "charges" (101 points of absorbed damage, magic missile does between 2 and 5 points per missile, which is 20.2 max damage or 50.5 min damage missiles, averages 35.35), that gets a cost of 1414, rounding up to 1500).
Since this effect is an additional enchantment on the item, it gets +50% cost, making it 6,000 to add that bit.
So, it either costs 22,000 or 38,000 gp for this item. Now, importantly, we're all assuming this is a slot-item (which it should be), and the question that springs to mind is should we make the wizard pay through the nose for an item that a fighter gets to have with an outlay of +2 heavy shield of shielding 10,000 gp (in exchange for encumbrance and having to strap on a physical shield)? I'd say no, so my final GM price comes in at a measly 22,000 gp, using the armour (enhancement) pricing option.
I'd price it against an equivalent Mithral Shield. This way, he pays for the protection, in addition to the benefit of no spell failure or armor check penalty.
If there is no facing why does the spell description state that it floats in front of you
And you can't engage someone in melee that's stood behind you you need to turn to face or is there a big bit of the rules I'm missing
There are no rules for turning around. It's assumed that within the span of a six second round, you are free to address situations from all directions.
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If there is no facing why does the spell description state that it floats in front of you
And you can't engage someone in melee that's stood behind you you need to turn to face or is there a big bit of the rules I'm missing
You can engage people "behind" you just fine; you don't actually have front/backsides. This is also why there's Flanking (coming from the side) but no Rear Attacks. You're assumed to be keeping an eye in every direction just to be sure, rather than facing any one direction fully and ignoring the reverse direction.
The bit about floating in front of you in the Shield description is just flavor text, it's not actually game mechanics. It moves around to protect you from all sides, because you are turning around to defend yourself in all directions.
Of course, this gets a bit unrealistic in some cases (if you're paralyzed for example), but it does mean that you don't need difficult rules for facing. I've done some game design before, and facing rules turned out to be really hard actually.
So, it either costs 22,000 or 38,000 gp for this item. Now, importantly, we're all assuming this is a slot-item (which it should be), and the question that springs to mind is should we make the wizard pay through the nose for an item that a fighter gets to have with an outlay of +2 heavy shield of shielding 10,000 gp (in exchange for encumbrance and having to strap on a physical shield)? I'd say no, so my final GM price comes in at a measly 22,000 gp, using the armour (enhancement) pricing option.
Strapping on a shield is a choice of combat style with it's own benefits and disadvantages, and for which shield proficiency is required. A shield would hinder a fighter using his off-hand for anything than holding the shield negating superior 2-handed weapon choices (bows and big swords) or taking advantage of other effective weapon styles (dervish stuff).
This shield just hangs there all the time and can allow that same fighter to get a shield bonus without sacrificing damage potential, monk can get a shield bonus that it normally would not have access to, a wild shaped druid would become more formidable.
Also it stacks completely with anything but a shield and shield spell, if you make it 'cheap to get' AC it will end up raising the AC of everyone but the shield fighter.
Strange I've always played it that anything that's coming in from the front 180 degrees is effected by the shield (if they have one) and anything coming in from the rear ignores the shield (again if they have one)
Must be a hang up from playing 1st and 2nd ed for so many years well you lives and learns
And in that case the item is well under prised as it is in effect a +4 ring of protection 32,000 gp + a ghost touch effect which is a +3 price effect on armour or shield so say that's another 9,000 gp then immune to magic missile so I would put that on par with a ring of energy resistance major
(As the ring allows you ignore 20 hits from one type of energy and a magic missiles damage is max at 25 hp so it a similar effect) and they cost 28,000 gp so that's a total of 69,000 gp so no 4k don't cut it sorry
And that's not including the x1.5 for the extra effects (as this would have in effect 2 extra effects)
Harm seems my methodology was right for figuring the cost, but my numbers were way off. Stupid memory. To the above poster the game doesn't keep track of any of that stuff, about facing and degrees why would it for a single low level spell.
i have made one of these items before, it will not make that character over powered. i would force them into using a ring slot because it will help them at low levels but they wont want to use it as they get higher in levels. blink and regeneration are much better then +4 ac.
I see a number of factors and potential problems/fixes. You're already into "ask the DM" territory by allowing magic item crafting, you might as well throw in some DM fiat to cover up any problems in foresight.
First, this item can't be "slotless" if it's a ring. I don't know where that came from. What this does allow for is wielding a two-handed weapon or use of two-weapon fighting while maintaining a shield bonus.
Since this isn't an actual shield strapped to the character's arm but rather a spell effect, I would rule that feats such as shield focus and such do not apply to the effect. It cannot be upgraded like a normal shield (so it will always be a +4, and can't increase to +7 AC like a +5 heavy shield).
If the player is specifically interested in blocking magic missiles...? Okay... is that something that happens every session? Even every other session? If it's happening enough that you think it will break your game balance, I would respectfully suggest that you consider having your NPC spellcasters try new things. Magic missile is a solid fallback, and easy to predict in terms of how it can impact combat, but it's far from the best use of a spell slot.
I'm also similarly unimpressed with the 'ghost touch' property effect. Ask yourself how often this will come up and whether or not it will break your game. Don't shut your player down just because a bunch of people on a forum insist that it's worth X amount of gold.
Ask yourself these questions and really come at them with a SUBJECTIVE view point. It's my personal opinion that ghost touch is overpriced. Some people get more mileage out of incorporeal enemies, that's them. But what about YOUR game? You don't have plans for lots of ghosts and uh... what else is incorporeal? (See? I hardly use them.) Then the force effect is kinda meh, and you don't want to stick your player with a cool but otherwise useless piece of gear that he shelled out a crap ton of gold on.
Point is, take the advice given here with a grain of salt; it's all subjective. Too much objectivity in this game can make for really static and boring crap.
Price it as a +3 mithril ghost touch animated buckler and call it a night.
I see a number of factors and potential problems/fixes. You're already into "ask the DM" territory by allowing magic item crafting, you might as well throw in some DM fiat to cover up any problems in foresight.
First, this item can't be "slotless" if it's a ring. I don't know where that came from. What this does allow for is wielding a two-handed weapon or use of two-weapon fighting while maintaining a shield bonus.
Since this isn't an actual shield strapped to the character's arm but rather a spell effect, I would rule that feats such as shield focus and such do not apply to the effect. It cannot be upgraded like a normal shield (so it will always be a +4, and can't increase to +7 AC like a +5 heavy shield).
If the player is specifically interested in blocking magic missiles...? Okay... is that something that happens every session? Even every other session? If it's happening enough that you think it will break your game balance, I would respectfully suggest that you consider having your NPC spellcasters try new things. Magic missile is a solid fallback, and easy to predict in terms of how it can impact combat, but it's far from the best use of a spell slot.
I'm also similarly unimpressed with the 'ghost touch' property effect. Ask yourself how often this will come up and whether or not it will break your game. Don't shut your player down just because a bunch of people on a forum insist that it's worth X amount of gold.
Ask yourself these questions and really come at them with a SUBJECTIVE view point. It's my personal opinion that ghost touch is overpriced. Some people get more mileage out of incorporeal enemies, that's them. But what about YOUR game? You don't have plans for lots of ghosts and uh... what else is incorporeal? (See? I hardly use them.) Then the force effect is kinda meh, and you don't want to stick your player with a cool but otherwise useless piece of gear that he shelled out a crap ton of gold on.
Point is, take the advice given here with a grain of salt; it's all...
I disagree with most everything you say, but agree with your opinion that ghost touch is overpriced.
To me that is a side effect of the shield though, the shield bonus itself is a bit of a problem granting it too cheaply will allow more AC stacking and diminishes shield users, custom crafting items is fine but when you are stacking bonuses that are not easily available in the Core it can cause problems, item creation is meant to be fun not to upset the game's balance. It will not cause higher ACs directly, but it will create characters with high AC that hit as hard as characters with lower AC now and shield users feeling silly for even bothering with a shield.
Ok with all that had been Said on this I have one Question.
Can personal Spells be made into Wondrous Item at all? if Not where does it say so. I know this applies to potions.
Ok with all that had been Said on this I have one Question.
Can personal Spells be made into Wondrous Item at all? if Not where does it say so. I know this applies to potions.
There is no rule against it, but there are precious few hard rules with item creation as is, spells themselves are not always made to balance very well or written with an arcane caster in mind.
Ok with all that had been Said on this I have one Question.
Can personal Spells be made into Wondrous Item at all? if Not where does it say so. I know this applies to potions.
Yes, they can (since they're not explicitly excluded), however, Personal range spells have that range as a balancing factor in the power of the spell (if you could cast them on other people, they would, for the most part, need to be higher in level). While there are no rules at all to support it, I would strongly consider increasing the duration factor multiplier by at least 50% (or reduce the reduction for 24 hour duration to 25% off) on a case-by-case basis, for any item explicitly designed to duplicate a spell of range Personal.
Ok thanks