Have you ever spent hours planning, researching, and building an NPC for a campaign only to have the players destroy it within seconds?
It's happened before, which is why I stopped putting so much time and effort into NPC builds. It ain't worth the pay off.
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But dancing around them and passively aggressively trying to politely but pleasantly suggest that they might possibly, if they agree and aren't offended have done it differently is just more of the coddling claptrap that has overtaken the world and pretty much destroyed the whole culture of excellence that used to be the hallmark of our civilization.
Oh well, .... /rant
Hit one of my pet peeves right on the head. Well said.
"Speaker: Say what you mean, mean what you say. Listener: Take what you're given and deal. If you agree there's a problem, fix it. If you disagree, ignore it. If it offends you, grow a spine."
Can I just interject ONE comment? I don't think it's "coddling" to frame these call outs in a professional and progressive manner. I had a manager at my last job; she didn't have ANY shame in telling me when I did something wrong...or she didn't like...or she felt was inappropriate. Nevermind the fact that 1. she enjoyed making such statements in the company of others to make an "example" of me, 2. she admitted very bluntly that she did it because she didn't like me, or 3. she has since been terminated from that position.
The point is I took it; I didn't ENJOY it but I endured. It did NOT make me a better employee or person (at that job anyway), it did NOT promote an improvement based workplace and it did NOT retain me as an employee - I quit and found a better job.
Y'know why I'm writing this rebuttal? Because one of her FAVORITE condescending phrases to use was (and this is no joke) "That was TOTALLY wrong". Maybe if she'd called me "Dude" instead of my actual name when she made that statement in a breakout meeting in front of a dept head to who's dept I was in the process of trying to transfer then I could've just blown it off as you suggesst.
Look, I don't manage anyone but I've got years of professional communications education and training. I agree w/you all that coddling isn't the way to go...but agressively rubbing someone's nose in it is just going to the other extreme.
Someone totally blunders into a trap at my table, very obviously ignoring warning signs like cracks in the ceiling, a crushed body ahead and what may be a pressure plate on the floor, just 'cause he wants to be a jerk I'll call them on it. However I'm not going to mutter "Umm...could you please...possibly maybe not do stuff like that Mr Man?" and I'm also not going to blurt out "Dude! You're TOTALLY wrong!"
No, he made his decision and I'll let the other players be mad at him for me. Then when all's said and done I'll pull a conversation with the guy and figure out why. Maybe he's fed up with the game and doesn't like me; I'm a big boy I can handle it. But maybe his kid's sick and not sleeping, which means he's not sleeping; and maybe his mortgage is due and getting collection calls; and maybe I should've realized that it's only been a month since his mom died.
If I'd have just called the guy an idiot in front of the few people he's got left to hang with it could...upsetting. We only meet once a month casually at a game store so I didn't know ANY of this stuff; maybe that's my fault. It doesn't change the fact that I should have a little bit of respect first, THEN go off on him.
If, in the course of the conversation with my player it turns out he was just being an idiot and knows it, then I'm going to call him an idiot. Then I'm going to tell him to roll up a new character if he wants to keep going in the game and I'll sit back down at the table.
Look, I'm sorry for being so caustic here. I've just probably contradicted my own point. I'm just very...aware of communications since my last boss and have a real problem when certain behaviors are labeled "coddling" just because they are professional and respectful. This is email so I don't know the tone you were using or inflection or subtleties of your above statements, but I'm sure they weren't meant to be inflammatory.
It's almost like there is another choice besides simpering PC emotional babying and hard line man-up blunt assessments.
But do carry on misrepresenting each others stances.
Simpering man-up babying and hardline blunt PC emotional assessments?
It's almost like there is another choice besides simpering PC emotional babying and hard line man-up blunt assessments.
But do carry on misrepresenting each others stances.
Right Tri... and that other choice would be to let the PC coddling run its course and then interject with cold hard reality when it is clear that the PC claptrap has obfuscated the problem to the point that harsh clarity is needed.
The Pathfinder and DnD systems are inherently broken in that NPC creation is a process that is much too complex for what you get. I admit, sometimes I like building NPCs and spending half an hour planning the spell list of some wizard NPC, but really...
Not to say I don't like the system itself. It's fun to PLAY, but NPC creation is too complex.
But dancing around them and passively aggressively trying to politely but pleasantly suggest that they might possibly, if they agree and aren't offended have done it differently is just more of the coddling claptrap that has overtaken the world and pretty much destroyed the whole culture of excellence that used to be the hallmark of our civilization.
Oh well, .... /rant
Hit one of my pet peeves right on the head. Well said.
"Speaker: Say what you mean, mean what you say. Listener: Take what you're given and deal. If you agree there's a problem, fix it. If you disagree, ignore it. If it offends you, grow a spine."
Can I just interject ONE comment? I don't think it's "coddling" to frame these call outs in a professional and progressive manner. I had a manager at my last job; she didn't have ANY shame in telling me when I did something wrong...or she didn't like...or she felt was inappropriate. Nevermind the fact that 1. she enjoyed making such statements in the company of others to make an "example" of me, 2. she admitted very bluntly that she did it because she didn't like me, or 3. she has since been terminated from that position.
The point is I took it; I didn't ENJOY it but I endured. It did NOT make me a better employee or person (at that job anyway), it did NOT promote an improvement based workplace and it did NOT retain me as an employee - I quit and found a better job.
Y'know why I'm writing this rebuttal? Because one of her FAVORITE condescending phrases to use was (and this is no joke) "That was TOTALLY wrong". Maybe if she'd called me "Dude" instead of my actual name when she made that statement in a breakout meeting in front of a dept head to who's dept I was in the process of trying to transfer then I could've just blown it off as you suggesst.
Look, I don't manage anyone but I've got years of professional communications education and training. I agree w/you all that coddling isn't the way to go...but agressively rubbing someone's nose in it...
Mark, a manager who calls out an employee in public is making a mistake both with the intended target and with the other employees in earshot.
However, in private evaluation sessions, managers who try to sugar-coat constructive feedback will learn that the message they are trying to send will rarely be achieved. Direct and honest feedback is essential to communicating performance issues.
And make no mistake, we are talking about performance issues. I'm not suggesting that it is necessary to point out errors every single time, but the point of this thread is about REPEATED loss of BBEGs to one-shotting by the PCs. REPEATED mistakes need to be addressed.
Anyway, my approach as a manager has been proven over 30 years in management with actual successful projects, promotions, bonuses and public recognition at my job, so I really don't need any affirmation on an internet message board.
Carry on!
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Right Tri... and that other choice would be to let the PC coddling run its course and then interject with cold hard reality when it is clear that the PC claptrap has obfuscated the problem to the point that harsh clarity is needed.It's almost like there is another choice besides simpering PC emotional babying and hard line man-up blunt assessments.
But do carry on misrepresenting each others stances.
That's almost as bad as either one by itself.
That's almost as bad as either one by itself.Right Tri... and that other choice would be to let the PC coddling run its course and then interject with cold hard reality when it is clear that the PC claptrap has obfuscated the problem to the point that harsh clarity is needed.It's almost like there is another choice besides simpering PC emotional babying and hard line man-up blunt assessments.
But do carry on misrepresenting each others stances.
Which is why the best approach is from the start to be direct, accurate and objective. Telling someone "That wasn't the right way to do it" should not be an ego-destroying experience, unless that person has never before been told they aren't perfect.
Protecting someone's hurt feelings is generally a luxury in truly competitive environments.
And yet you still have to be aware of their feelings regardless.
"Aware of their feelings" is not the same thing as "avoid offending at all costs."
I am very much aware of the feelings of my employees. Many of my closest friends today are people who used to be in my employ as much as 30 years ago. We still hang out and some of us game together.
But I was never afraid to tell them when they were not meeting expectations. High-functioning teams learn that the only way to perform at a high level is to set expectations, measure results and communicate freely about how those expectations are being met.
People with the appropriate attitude appreciate knowing where they need to improve. People who enjoy being on high functioning teams understand that they will be held to a high standard.
This is getting far afield, and discussing how to be successful in business isn't quite the same thing as discussing how to be a good GM, but this entire attitude of political correctness has infused the business world to the point that it is very, very hard to build high-functioning teams these days because too many people have been raised on the concept that their feelings are as important as anything else.
Sure, that might make them feel better about themselves, but it doesn't get you to the moon.
"Aware of their feelings" is not the same thing as "avoid offending at all costs."Who here has said otherwise?
I suppose that's a subjective interpretation Tri... It was certainly asserted that telling someone "you're doing it wrong" was offensive, and yet I can't count the number of times I've sat with an employee and said "In this area, you aren't meeting expectations and need to improve."
If that's not "you're doing it wrong" I don't know what is.
Semantics.
How you say something speaks louder than what you say.
A common politically correct misconception. It depends on what you say.
It's actually only about 10% what you say.
Remember to constantly confirm and deny things with a wide eyes and mouth. You'll never go wrong.
It's actually only about 10% what you say.
Remember to constantly confirm and deny things with a wide eyes and mouth. You'll never go wrong.
Yeah, I always turn to transvestite comedians to be my experts whenever possible.
@AD: I didn't mean to imply you're a bad manager, a poor communicator or besmirch your career and I apologize profusely if that's how it came out. I do agree with you that bluntness is key; not (as you pointed out) to the point of disrespect but directness and honesty are key.
It's just that, when I saw the phrase you used I kind of lost my stuff. The manager at that last job was...challenging to say the least. Many former co-workers joked that we should start a support group.
Anyway, like I say I apologize for the rant.
Getting back to the OP I've said above I think its more about the people playing the game and less about paper NPCs. No one in this game is indestructible and when you couple that with chance die rolls you get some very bizarre scenarios.
The only GM I've ever seen fix this problem only did it once, and he did it w/out either side making a single die roll. He described his set piece and the terrible things happening therein, then asked us for our "plan". We followed his casual question by a full half hour planning and development pitch where, as a team, we would use all our skills, some minor spells and taking advantage of the activities around us we'd get into position to then retrieve the book we'd come for from where it lay beside the BBEG, all of us prepared for battle.
Had we attacked we probably would've died, but then again looking at the math after the fact it was determined that, on a lucky hit we could conceivably have killed the guy since we had some low-level magic weapons. Rather than give us the option however he just leaned back and smiled and says: ok you get it. This is what happens...
That was a lot of fun and very fulfilling.
Oh sure, the guy'd already gotten what he needed from the book anyway and although we did our job and retrieved it the world was ALMOST destroyed anyway, but it was (to paraphrase the A-team) cool to see a plan come together.
No worries Mark, I've enjoyed your posts and have high expectations for the photos you are sure to post of your Hirst terrain efforts.
There is no doubt that my personal reaction to the modern world's slavish worship of all things "politically correct" bleeds out on multiple occasions. I truly believe we have now raised at least two entire generations of hyper-sensitive prima-donnas who have a completely unrealistic expectation of how the world actually works. And it really comes out in these sorts of "don't you DARE tell someone they aren't perfect the way they are!" admonishments that are so common here and everywhere else these days.
Everyone gets a ribbon for being mediocre and nobody understands why mediocre is now considered a perfectly acceptable goal in life...
Oh well.
I'm still trying to figure out how the hell my saying:
When this kind of thing that happens to one of my GMs, I'd rather say, "Well, it's hard to think of everything. Why don't we talk with the group about figuring out what went wrong?" Or "would you like some advice about how to make sure this doesn't happen again?" And by all means, point out the GM's specific mistakes, specific to that circumstance--I WANT my players to tell me, "Hey, you forgot that the fog cloud was up," or say, "Why didn't you use the X ability the monster had?" Mollycoddling isn't going to help, but neither will a bitter, "end of story" assignment of "fault."
We all should own up to our mistakes and our missteps. But when we start assigning actual BLAME for a snafu that occurred during our pretendy funtime games, which is what your phrasing suggests, things are going to go unnecessarily sour.
Especially with emphasis on:
Mollycoddling isn't going to help, but neither will a bitter, "end of story" assignment of "fault."
Got turned into a tirade against "political correctness," which this has nothing to do with. Nowhere did I suggest we should rephrase things in overly neutral language to avoid offending someone's political sensibilities (are there political sensibilities in RPGs? I guess so).
Oh, yes, that's me, DeathQuaker, always gilding the lily and never just speaking my mind.
Let me try again:
"Give people useful feedback instead of assigning 'fault' and leaving the end of the conversation there."
If that's still too unclear:
"Don't be a dick."
Thank you. I'm done now.
I'm still trying to figure out how the hell my saying:
{wrong response}Got turned into a tirade against "political correctness," which this has nothing to do with.
The "political correctness" comment was aimed at your OTHER comment, which contained (among other similar thoughts) this:
"It's just your fault" is akin to saying, "you idiot, you can't do this, you should have done better, you're not allowed to make mistakes." The problem with this is that it not only is discouraging in general, it discourages people from wanting to be GMs, which is A Bad Thing. We need GMs. GMs are rare. I don't want to say to them, "Well, you f~&#ed up, it's your fault," and leave it at the end--especially when in all likelihood, that is a gross oversimplification of what actually happened.
First of all "It's just your fault" is NOT akin to saying "you idiot, you can't do this... ". If someone hears "you idiot, you can't do this" when someone says "it's your fault" then, if it is, in fact, their fault, that is not a problem with the message, it's a problem of the ego of the listener.
Then you go on to suggest that telling someone they screwed up will be so damaging to their ego that they will abandon the endeavor entirely...
"It's your fault" is not "you f&+%ed up" either, again unless the listener has serious self-respect issues.
Anyway, I'm done with this too. Your post came across to me exactly as I characterized it, as a masterful thesis on political correctness and the critical importance of never challenging anyone directly lest they get their poor fragile egos permanently crushed from the experience.
To AD:
I think the problem for some of us is the way you wrote it. It did not come across as constructive criticism. (Which I agree is a good thing.) To at least several of us that read it, it came across as "Ha ha you're a failure. I'm so much better than you."
{Edit: And no that is not only the fault of the reader. Spoken and written communication involves at least 2 parties. If the receiver gets an impression that is different from what the sender meant to express, that is as much of an issue with the sender as the receiver.}
Yes, constructive criticism must be stated clearly to be effective. But what sounds like an intentional insult in ridiculously exaggerated absolutes is not the same as stating clearly.
Also, the things people have to accept and deal with from a boss at work is not the same as in a peer request for assistance in a game.
Political correctness really has nothing to do with it. I am also very poor at political correctness. That doesn't mean I don't give consideration to the feelings of those with whom I am communicating. That is not political correctness, that is simply being polite and considerate.
Kydeem, posting requests for advice on an internet messageboard is also an environment where the poster should expect to be challenged.
And as I said before, I didn't post the "harsh" comment until the political correctness had run amok so much that the original issue was totally obfuscated by layers upon layers of attempts to protect fragile egos.
By then I felt the egos had sufficient padding to deal with a single post cutting to the point.
Kydeem, posting requests for advice on an internet messageboard is also an environment where the poster should expect to be challenged.
And as I said before, I didn't post the "harsh" comment until the political correctness had run amok so much that the original issue was totally obfuscated by layers upon layers of attempts to protect fragile egos.
By then I felt the egos had sufficient padding to deal with a single post cutting to the point.
Challenged? Yes. Needlessly insulted? No.
I just went back and reread the first 2 pages. I still don't see what is making you keep bring up political correctness. There is nothing in there that I can see that could relate to political correctness. Unless you mean the statement that it has happened to alot of us? I don't see how that could bother you so much, since it appears to be a fact. It apparently has happened to alot of us.
Your earlier posts seemed reasonable and helpful. That one looked like you lost your temper with original poster about something and just started insulting. From you later posts, it doesn't sound like that was you intention. But that was how it appeared.
Kydeem, posting requests for advice on an internet messageboard is also an environment where the poster should expect to be challenged.
And as I said before, I didn't post the "harsh" comment until the political correctness had run amok so much that the original issue was totally obfuscated by layers upon layers of attempts to protect fragile egos.
By then I felt the egos had sufficient padding to deal with a single post cutting to the point.
Challenged? Yes. Needlessly insulted? No.
I just went back and reread the first 2 pages. I still don't see what is making you keep bring up political correctness. There is nothing in there that I can see that could relate to political correctness. Unless you mean the statement that it has happened to alot of us? I don't see how that could bother you so much, since it appears to be a fact. It apparently has happened to alot of us.
Your earlier posts seemed reasonable and helpful. That one looked like you lost your temper with original poster about something and just started insulting. From you later posts, it doesn't sound like that was you intention. But that was how it appeared.
Well, I'll just say that one post was poorly worded and/or misunderstood. The point is clear. GMs should not repeatedly suffer from BBEG one-shot destruction. If they do, they need to change something that they are doing.
I just felt like that point was getting lost in the shuffle.
Ty AD. Remember everyone, No bull is Noble.
If the GM is losing his big baddie all the time to 1 shoters maybe the GM needs to take a break and rethink things.
I totally agree with the Uncle statement, evil fills the void left by evil destroyed, but at the same time you want your PCs to feel they impacted the world. If more evil just keeps coming and coming it not inspire your PC's. Personally I love the unending struggle,when im a player, but i know my PCs hate it (and i hate it as a GM). It just seems to frustrate them, and deter their efforts to impact the world.
Impacting the world...great way to put it MH (hey, great initials too!); I think at the end of the day that's what any player wants. If they kill your big bad in round 1 just as she finishes her epic monologue so be it - the PC's lucked out and saved the world. Just remember your Ghostbusters:
You see a goddess, she asks you if you're divinity.
My paladin says "no"
Everyone roll a save
(Brief battle ensues) yeah! That wasn't so bad!
(booming voice inside their heads) CHOOSE THE FORM OF THE DESTROYER!
Y'see kids, killing the big bad is sometimes just a catalyst to what the GM wanted all along. Or sometimes it's just luck and the GM has to scramble to keep things interesting. Either way that movie ended with the PCs taking a second crack at the BBEG and they fried her...this time the way the GM WANTED them to, even though they came up with the solution on their own. Everyone wins!
None of the GM's are able to make game day this weekend! Ahhhhhhhhhh.
All my plans! Ruined!!
I have another campaign in mind though...I think.
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I was running Age of Worms, and my party won the initiative, and killed dragotha before he even got a chance to act once. I had put....days...of work into 3d terrain for that encounter, and it was beautiful. the players didn’t even acknowledge it, just wanted a list of loot.
I haven’t played 3.x since.
call me what you will, but it sucks to go through that. The dm should have fun also.
My players killed Kyuss in one round. The anti-paladin's cohort (a cleric with the evil domain), used touch of evil on him, and then the anti-paladin unloaded with a smite good full attack. Almost did 1.5 times Kyss' hit points. It was epic, but i was mildly annoyed as i have spent 4 hours converting kyuss to PF the day before.
Recently we have had issues with the players having had more plans than the GM...the players plans for a good time for all were kind of ruined by the GM, but he has made changes in the last week.
Just remember your Ghostbusters:
You see a goddess, she asks you if you're divinity.
My paladin says "no"
Everyone roll a save
(Brief battle ensues) yeah! That wasn't so bad!
(booming voice inside their heads) CHOOSE THE FORM OF THE DESTROYER!
"When someone asks if you are a god, you say YES!"
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Have you ever spent hours planning, researching, and building an NPC for a campaign only to have the players destroy it within seconds?
In the last campaign (today) we went up against a possessed mayor. He was possessed by a magical stone. I was told the GM had planned, plotted, and created this npc for over an hour.
An hour is nothing. For my Age of Worms campaign, I spent each of my evenings for the better part of a week (if not more) altering one of the major NPCs to better suit my vision of that NPCs goals and mentality, crafting backstory to support the new version as well as poring through my library of 3.5 material to find the perfect mix of mechanics for the NPC, etc.
And then the PCs won initiative. The sorcerer told the front-line fighters to taunt the NPC, then readied time stop for the inevitable arrogant charge. Long story short, the NPC ate a sphere of annihilation, and all my work was for naught :)
That won't prevent me from continuing to do the same ting over and over again though, since that's part of what I love about being a DM/GM :)
An hour is nothing. For my Age of Worms campaign, I spent each of my evenings for the better part of a week (if not more) altering one of the major NPCs to better suit my vision of that NPCs goals and mentality, crafting backstory to support the new version as well as poring through my library of 3.5 material to find the perfect mix of mechanics for the NPC, etc.
And then the PCs won initiative. The sorcerer told the front-line fighters to taunt the NPC, then readied time stop for the inevitable arrogant charge. Long story short, the NPC ate a sphere of annihilation, and all my work was for naught :)
That won't prevent me from continuing to do the same ting over and over again though, since that's part of what I love about being a DM/GM :)
This sounds exactly like
Since when is the death of a BBEG the end of an adventure? Here are a few scenarios to show the consequences of such an action:
1) The players lack some knowledge the BBEG would have imparted if allowed to monologue for a few rounds of combat.
2) The hero's awesome success becomes famous, and future BBEG's learn of the crazy tactics the players can use, and act much more careful, avoiding straight out fights.
3) The BBEG was just part of a system, and his removal from it is only a temporary setback.
4) The PC's relax after a job well done, feasting at a local tavern.
5) Now that this McGuffin is collected from the BBEG's dead hands, the PCs still have to collect the next 6.
6) When the reinforcements arrive and see their master dead so quickly, the offer to join the PC's/go into a rage/commit seppuku.
I guess the point is the untimely death of a BBEG is not the end point of a plot, nor should the GM have any definite expectation ever of what the PCs will do. Certainly not the unholy combination of a plot hinging on what he expects PCs to do!
All my plans ...moved to another thread! lol
It occurs to me that Cobra Commander was the one who actually said 'all my plans, ruined' om the first place...
The new GM has recently found out about his plans being ruined. It was a dark naga ...it didn't take out party long to finish it off and the GM was devastated. Poor new GM...Welcome to the club!
Thisssss issss all your fault Desssstro!
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Have you ever spent hours planning, researching, and building an NPC for a campaign only to have the players destroy it within seconds?
In the last campaign (today) we went up against a possessed mayor. He was possessed by a magical stone. I was told the GM had planned, plotted, and created this npc for over an hour.
I killed the man in one shot. When he rose again it was because the stone was using his body. It realized it had been used by the mayor and now it was free. It recruited us to gather it's brothers...(plot hook, if we don't we die). We agreed and those that didn't...we don't have to worry about them any more.
Why did you let the PCs get anywhere near the BBEG? First law of a prime mover - use others to do your bidding in a way that is disassociated from yourself.
If anything he could have blackmailed people into doing a bunch of small things that all collectively add up to the ultimate conspiracy of all time.
@ yellowdingo Oh, it wasn't me. I was a member of the party that took on the boss of that town. He isn't, wasn't, the singular head bad guy, but he was for that sector. It is part of the learning curve for the new GM.