Having required materials for PFS...


GM Discussion

2/5

As most PFS GMs already likely know, players are supposed to have a copy (hard or PDF) of the books which feature rules implemented in their character build. I was wondering... has anyone in their prior GM experience had a player try to present the PRD (or any other online compilation of rules) or their Hero Lab package purchases as being allowable substitutes? I ask because I see more and more players at conventions playing with their characters pulled up in Hero Lab and I think the later case is bound to pop up sooner or later.

I could see some players saying something to the effect of "I'm not going to pay for the same rulebook twice! My Hero Lab supplemental packages are just as good." I am definately not condoning that point of view, just preparing myself for the day when it might happen.

If a player is using some obscure rule from a supplement, I expect them to have it on-hand because I may need to see the ruling for it. Just looking to hear from others if they have had the kind of experience I describe above.

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Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever even had to ask a player to show me something they had...

5/5

"Sorry, {player}, but the rules are very explicit in this matter. Now the good news is that the PDF version of that book is cheap ... So if you use that fancy laptop to log in and buy it right now, that works for me."

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So Though I have never seen anyone try to use the PRD as their go to source I have seen a few use HeroLabs with out owning the book or not even able to tell me what book it came from.

This is how I handle it..

So first off that rule in in place so the GM does not have to carry everything to cover everything, which could be impossible for some, and just to make sure their is a source of the ability at reach to the GM so he can look it up. I handle this a little differently from my Home game compared to when I gm at Conventions.

At my Home game all my players do buy the sources for what they use but they don't bring them to the game because they know the source will be there, either through me with all the PDFs on my iPad or through a few others at the game. I do not require my Home players to bring the source with them if they feel they don't need them. I do however require them to know the source they got it from so I can look it up if need be, and if they can't tell me I not going to stop the game to find it through all my PDFs, I will either make a call right there or not let them use it. This only came up once due to a visiting player who did not have any books other then the Core book but had HeroLabs, he had no clue were anything was coming from he just assumed that since it was on HeroLabs that he was good to go. I corrected him and told him since he could not tell me were it came from and at the time he gave me the impression he was not going to buy the source from Paizo I was not going to let him use it. He was a bit upset at first, but was able to stay calm. Next time he came he had his source and started buying them in PDF form.

Now for Conventions I am a little more strict, as a Player you cannot rely on someone else at the table having the book you need, so if you go to a convention with out some form of the source you are not going prepared. I have had 1 or 2 players upset with me because they did not have the source with them and no one else at the table did either and I would not let them use it. Nothing ever got out of hand, but I know they were still disappointed, But I hope they learned from it.

For new players I also handle it differently, I can't expect a new player that only just got in the game, to own it yet, so I usually just explain the rule and move on.

As a player it is really important that you have the legal source with you so you can show the GM if he brings it up, especially at conventions. And really you have no grounds to argue that and blame the GM if they don't let you use it. HeroLabs is really bad with this, since it is so easy just to pick it without looking to see if you own the book it is coming from, and that is were I usually see problems with.

Dark Archive 3/5 **

The PRD is fine for any core rules, really. I use it when crafting stat blocks for my summoner's Summon Monster Ability because I'd rather do that than lug around a Bestiary and apply these changes on the fly. I think the same can be said for HeroLab.

But for anything outside the core and/or core assumption, absolutely not. I use www.d20pfsrd.com as a reference point when building my characters, but I always make sure that any item I'm using I either own the book/pdf or purchase before I play. Not to mention, double check that the item was translated onto the website correctly.

And this goes for anything: traits, feats, magic items. The PRD lists at the bottom of any entry where the material comes from, so if they show you the PRD just scroll down and make sure it's from core. If not, this isn't adequate documentation. I'm pretty sure HeroLab tags the source of a given piece of crunch as well, but I don't know where or how to check it as I don't use said software.

Grand Lodge 4/5 *

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Neither the PRD nor HeroLabs are official PFS sources, so if you're using something from the Additional Resources page, you must have the book or a watermarked PDF copy present at the table. The HeroLabs players do tend to have traits and feats especially that they don't own in a legal source... sometimes I let it go, if it's something I'm familiar with, but as soon as I need to look it up, the legal copy of the rules needs to be there (and able to be read within 10 seconds, not just a PDF on a thumb drive in your pocket). Sure, some folks may get upset, but then some folks get upset when I call them on dice fudging as well... too bad.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

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Scott Young wrote:
(and able to be read within 10 seconds, not just a PDF on a thumb drive in your pocket).

Wait, I thought as part of the Canadian Health Care Program all Citizens of Canada had Datajacks implanted into their heads that would allow direct connection to thumb drives? Or is that only specific to a province? ;)

4/5

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Dragnmoon wrote:
Scott Young wrote:
(and able to be read within 10 seconds, not just a PDF on a thumb drive in your pocket).
Wait, I thought as part of the Canadian Health Care Program all Citizens of Canada had Datajacks implanted into their heads that would allow direct connection to thumb drives? Or is that only specific to a province? ;)

It's true, but due to government bureaucracy they're only USB 1; it takes forever to access files greater than 2 MB.

5/5

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Jeff Mahood wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:
Scott Young wrote:
(and able to be read within 10 seconds, not just a PDF on a thumb drive in your pocket).
Wait, I thought as part of the Canadian Health Care Program all Citizens of Canada had Datajacks implanted into their heads that would allow direct connection to thumb drives? Or is that only specific to a province? ;)
It's true, but due to government bureaucracy they're only USB 1; it takes forever to access files greater than 2 MB.

And everything needs to be in English and French, so we have to buy every PDF twice!

Sovereign Court 3/5

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And we're still waiting on the Canadian versions of all the pdfs with the proper spelling of words such as armour.


My answer is specific to conventions.

I ran several tables at Tokyo in Tulsa (in Tulsa, Oklahoma on July 20-21) and had a number of new players and two or three salty ones.

The new players all ran pregens: I had all the spells, gear, etc. all printed out and in a little binder for them. With what they had in their hands, they could answer any question about what the character's abilities and gear did.

For the salty ones with ONLY a character sheet and a core rulebook on them, but a character with ALL kinds of stuff from assorted other books on the sheet:

"I didn't bring my stuff because [it's too heavy/too much to print/my iPad is dead/other excuse]. Is that okay?"

"I can find it on the PRD.. wait.. PFS guide says no. Sorry. I have pregen stuff for you if you want, or you can roll your own 1st level Core character."

They got a little annoyed because they /COULD/ have used the PRD...

...until losing internet connection five minutes into the con to the CoD:MW3 tournament...

...until I reached into my pocket to pull out my cool mobile internet hotspot that I bought just for this reason and realized it's charging on the counter in my kitchen at home...

...until realizing we didn't have any plugs for our dead laptops with all the PDFs on it...

...until having no other way to look that stuff up...

We all agreed that "no book, no play" was a good call. It would have been a nightmare to try and remember all these feats/rules and do it correctly without a reference of any kind.

My take on having core assumption books is now this: you need to have it in your hands, so that the newbie GM who never even saw your super amazing feat/gear could look at your character and have all of rules/descriptions available to look everything on that sheet up right then and there.

I thought that the rule didn't existed to require you to "prove" you own materials (which is OK.. it's a premium some people pay to get cool stuff and it's not fair to let people have the reward without buying the books), but now I realize that the rule exists to make sure that the brand new "I only GMed three games in my life and they were First Steps and my VC bullied me into running this one" GM can figure out (1) what you have; (2) what you can do; (3) where to find information on aspects of your character.

My thoughts after that experience are: if you want to play it, bring it/print it.

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Robert Duncan wrote:
My take on having core assumption books

Er, do you mean "non-Core Assumption"?

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Dragnmoon wrote:
HeroLabs is really bad with this, since it is so easy just to pick it without looking to see if you own the book it is coming from, and that is were I usually see problems with.

Another problem i've found with the player's that rely on HeroLab is that they assume everything on Herolab is PFS legal. I have had to ask for the reference material, and then cross check the Additional Resources page a few times now.

Also, great tip in that: bring a print-out of the Additional Resources page with you to conventions ^_^ worked well from a player perspective at paizoCon

1/5 **

Justin Riddler wrote:
Also, great tip in that: bring a print-out of the Additional Resources page with you to conventions ^_^ worked well from a player perspective at paizoCon

I do that anyway, along with the guide. I guess I thought that was just standard practice.

5/5

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Dragnmoon wrote:
HeroLabs is really bad with this, since it is so easy just to pick it without looking to see if you own the book it is coming from, and that is were I usually see problems with.

See, though, that's just laziness. When you're making a new PFS character you can uncheck the books you don't own, and then that stuff isn't available. And I haven't yet seen something in HL that doesn't have a source (or two) listed in the description, so I don't see any legitimate reason to not realize where something is coming from if you exercise any sort of care whatsoever.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Patrick Harris @ SD wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:
HeroLabs is really bad with this, since it is so easy just to pick it without looking to see if you own the book it is coming from, and that is were I usually see problems with.
See, though, that's just laziness. When you're making a new PFS character you can uncheck the books you don't own, and then that stuff isn't available. And I haven't yet seen something in HL that doesn't have a source (or two) listed in the description, so I don't see any legitimate reason to not realize where something is coming from if you exercise any sort of care whatsoever.

And yet it would be nearly impossible to do something like that(HL gaff) if you owned the book/PDF and read through it with a character sheet in one hand and a pencil in the other.


Scott Young wrote:
Neither the PRD nor HeroLabs are official PFS sources...

Thanks, I was wondering about that. I'm new to PFS. Haven't even created a character, yet. I do have the Core Rulebook PDF, though.

The Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play wrote:
"The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook is available
at game stores and bookstores, and online at paizo.com.
In addition to being published in a traditional hardcover
format, the Core Rulebook is also available as an affordable
and fully searchable bookmarked PDF ($9.99) and as a free
online reference document at paizo.com/prd."

From this paragraph, I kinda thought that having access to the PRD, at the table, would be enough. Though, I do see the problem if internet connection is lost.

However, I can definitely print any relevant pages from any of the PDFs (if I create a character with anything outside the Core Rulebook) and bring a hardcopy of the Core Rulebook. But, I don't want to bring multiple hardcopies of various books. And, not sure how searching PDFs will actually work at the table. That's new to me.

Question? Are printouts of pages from the PRD legal?

5/5

sveden wrote:
And yet it would be nearly impossible to do something like that(HL gaff) if you owned the book/PDF and read through it with a character sheet in one hand and a pencil in the other.

Yes, both methods have their respective strengths and weaknesses.

Hrothgar Rannúlfr wrote:
Question? Are printouts of pages from the PRD legal?

No. The thing is, the CRB is part of the "Core Assumption." Which means you don't actually have to own the CRB to use stuff from it. Presumably this is because they don't want there to be an "entry fee" for basic play.

I guess you could describe PFS as freemium, when you get right down to it.

Edited: Actually, that should read "Yes for core book stuff, but you probably won't need it, and no for anything else."


Thanks...

This might be a good place to ask this...

What about character sheets? Do GMs expect that the character sheet from the back of The Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play be used? Or, are homemade versions (typed or handwritten) OK? Perhaps, formatted like the Pre-Gens?

Liberty's Edge 1/5

Patrick Harris @ SD wrote:
sveden wrote:
And yet it would be nearly impossible to do something like that(HL gaff) if you owned the book/PDF and read through it with a character sheet in one hand and a pencil in the other.

Yes, both methods have their respective strengths and weaknesses.

Hrothgar Rannúlfr wrote:
Question? Are printouts of pages from the PRD legal?

No. The thing is, the CRB is part of the "Core Assumption." Which means you don't actually have to own the CRB to use stuff from it. Presumably this is because they don't want there to be an "entry fee" for basic play.

I guess you could describe PFS as freemium, when you get right down to it.

Edited: Actually, that should read "Yes for core book stuff, but you probably won't need it, and no for anything else."

Slightly unrelated to your question. Printouts from PDFs, legitimately purchased that show the watermark, are legal to the best of my knowledge. Also PDFs, legitimately purchased that show the watermark, on a laptop/tablet/ereader that is functioning are legal.

5/5

Hrothgar Rannúlfr wrote:
What about character sheets? Do GMs expect that the character sheet from the back of The Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play be used?

Nope. Official sheets, excel sheets, optimized sheets, hero lab printouts, hero lab on a laptop, whatever you want is fine as long as you can refer to its contents in a reasonably efficient way.


Thank you, Patrick.

I like making my own character sheets with a little more space for notes and/or calculations. I also like a front page for each character in a similar format to the Pre-Gens. Easier to find relevant info, for me.

I can have all the extra pages, behind the main page, that I want. Like print outs from the various PDFs (assuming I use something from a book other than the CRB) And, it looks like I'll be getting Chronicle Sheets to add to those, too.

Sovereign Court 2/5

I actually had one player (who's part of my home group as well) argue that I was responsible for bringing all the books his character needed because another player from our home group who didn't show up had them (our home group pools money to buy the books for the group).

I had to explain to him that, no, it was really his responsibility to bring the books he needed. I couldn't be held responsible for the material his character uses.


Gotta say that, as a new PFS player, being able to bring just the relevant printed out pages of the Paizo pdfs is going to be great.

That's probably the one thing I didn't like about 3.5... Too many books to take anywhere to play.

Now, with PDFs, a few printouts, and an eReader (as long as the battery doesn't die)... I can bring all the Pathfinder content I need to just about any game, anywhere.

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Welcome, Hrothgar. It's great to have you as a Pathfinder Society player.

Regarding character sheets: the answer is somewhere between "need an official sheet" and "anything goes". It's something like "anything your GM can read and find things on, without you walking her through, is good."

I had a fellow sit down at my table at Origins last year, with his character on a handful of notes, all unlabeled. I struggled along with him that day, but I wouldn't let him play from such indecipherable notes now.

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