toughness is one of the first feats I choose when there is nothing else to further my build, another is improved initiative. However most non-caster builds need every feat they get.
At first I thought that the fast learner human feat makes toughness obsolete. But now I see that (unless you want the feats which have fast learner as requirement) toughness is in fact stronger.
If I take fast learner I'm stuck with +1sp and +1 hp each level.
With toughness I can chose between +1sp and +1hp OR +2hp.
And more importantly, if I chose my alternate favored class bonus at any level I lose both my sp and my hp with fast learner. With toughness I only lose either one sp or 1 hp.
Which doesn't include the options when you take both, fast learner and toughness.
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I really felt like I wanted Toughness last night playing a first level sorcerer. He has 14 constitution and like all PFS characters started off with max hit points, but I felt really fragile with only nine measly hit points.
If I had room for Toughness in my build for him (only one feat this level, and I'm building towards Augment Summoning at level 3) I would have taken it, and breathed much easier with almost as many hit points as a first level fighter.
Toughness is a must-have for me whenever I build a melee fighter. In the games I play, we do full HD @ 1st level and then half HD + 1 for every level beyond that, so with the favoured class bonus, that's an extra 2 HP per level (+20% @ 1st level, +33% every level thereafter) or the equivalent of +4 CON. With 16 CON at level 10, that's 10+(9*6)+(10*3)+(10*2) = 114 HP.
Fighters get so many feats as it is and you can never have enough hit points as a fighter, IMO.
Also, for D6ers, it's a must-have as well (for me). With the FCB and Toughness, that's +33% at 1st level and +67% every level thereafter. At level 10 w/ 14 CON, that's 6+(9*4)+(10*2)+(10*2) = 82 HP, which is a very solid amount for a caster. That +3 boost at level 1 is also huge (6+2+3+1 = 12 HP) for surviving the lower levels.
Thoughness is awesome. It's like getting +2 to your Con. Are two extra attribute points worth a feat?
The answer is yes. It's not a must have, but if you have chosen your build and there are a few feat choices left, thoughness is a good suggestion.
There are two main reasons to take thoughness:
1- Being a d6 class. You need every HP you can scrounge up. You can usually stay out of the battle but you want to be able to withstand an errant arrow or spell. Even more, smart monsters and bosses (and DMs) have a tendency to target casters first, so you need all those HP.
2- Being a melee character, specially if your armor is not that good. Barbarians with mid to low Dex come to my mind, mostly because I played one. If you're trading blows and you can't rely in your armor, 5 hp can be the difference between killing the BBEG next round or getting dropped in this round.
As the number of feats in the game increases, always-nice-but-rarely-vital feats like toughness get harder and harder to fit into builds. When there's only one book with feats in it, a great many characters have space for toughness. Where there's lots of such books, things like toughness get squeezed out for stuff that's more interesting, powerful, unique, or transformative.
Worth while, unlike the version unveiled in 3.0.
It's a great safety net for soft targets. Also a good dump feet for high levels that really don't need or care.
I'd place it high in the second tier of feats. (tier 1 being Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, and a few others)
I don't think it is a bad feat, but it is never able to make the final rounds for my PC's. I have given it to NPC's though.
Every character I ever built who might be in melee 50% or more has toughness (fighter, barb, ranger, cleric, magus, bard, etc.)
I've been close to death many times and got saved by the extra hps I've had from toughness. That 1 extra round allowed me to get healed, quaff potion, etc. I usually play in games where there is no resurrection, so dying has serious consequences.
Well, this thread has been very informative so far. Unfortunately, the character whose build brought me to this conundrum is firmly in the "it kind of depends" category so I'm no closer to deciding. :P
There are points where that little extra HP would've saved you from outright dying, and there are points where that 1 AC would've saved you from getting hit in the first place.
Personally, I find that the extra 3 HP (or is it +1 per level now?) doesn't exactly equate to much later on in levels, whereas the 1 AC, while a flat amount, is always important because the scaling of AC between CR and CL is relevant and competent in regards to separate numbers.
There are so many situations where a -1 to hit or +1 to AC saves you from suffering an entire hit (which later on in the levels, regards to 20-100 HP worth of damage), whereas the extra 20 HP is lucky to spare you from getting outright slaughtered within a single hit.
Thing is, Dodge is more likely to save you from more damage/epochs of death than Toughness is, especially in the long run. 20 HP at endgame won't save me from getting cleaved for 100 HP; it'll only mitigate the damage I received for that level, and that's it.
Dodge offers so much more, and would save me 100 HP worth of damage because of that extra +1, and doesn't exhaust nearly as easily as Toughness does.
The choice is pretty clear to me, and is exactly why Wizards would rather have a 16 Dex than a sub-par 14 Con (that is, a reduced effect, since Toughness only affects HP, and not saves).
As far as a house-ruling is concerned, I would like to think that Toughness would be an amazing Character Trait to take instead of an actual Feat, of which you can spend to obtain so much more than just a hit point per level.
Thing is, Dodge is more likely to save you from more damage/epochs of death than Toughness is, especially in the long run. 20 HP at endgame won't save me from getting cleaved for 100 HP; it'll only mitigate the damage I received for that level, and that's it.
I agree...somewhat. At the endgame it is very blah. But for my first level characters, those three hitpoints can mean alot.
Greg
Thing is, Dodge is more likely to save you from more damage/epochs of death than Toughness is, especially in the long run. 20 HP at endgame won't save me from getting cleaved for 100 HP; it'll only mitigate the damage I received for that level, and that's it.
I agree...somewhat. At the endgame it is very blah. But for my first level characters, those three hitpoints can mean alot.
Greg
Honestly, yes. I am not saying that Toughness isn't important, because HP is good; but Dodge offers much more, since that AC stacks and scales as you level (in terms of relevance). That HP you receive from Toughness doesn't increase. Personally, it is nice as a Fighter Bonus feat, since you can actually switch Toughness around later on when 3 HP becomes less relevant.
At the same time, Dodge can offer you much more, since it can negate entire attacks and damage, whereas Toughness slightly increases your HP. Yes, my brother, who is a Bow Ranger in our campaign, already died once because of his lack of Con (he only had a 9, and he got knocked down to a -8 within one whack because he was dropped to 2 HP by the boss' extended movement). We were all out of range to get to him, and even with the Cleric throwing a Resurgence upon getting to him after a double move (to reroll the Stabilize Save at -8), he still died.
That little bit of HP would've saved him from outright dying. At the same time, if he wasn't playing like an idiot and not healing himself when he needed to, he would've been fine (a bit of blame goes to the Cleric himself, since he was too busy thwacking away at another Ogre Skeleton, but at least he came up with the Resurgence idea).
It also depends on what your AC is (relative to CR).
Lets say your level 10,
If your AC is 15, taking dodge is pretty much worthless. AC 16 will not reduce how often you are hit. Toughness might let you survive long enough to get out of melee though.
If your AC is 25, you're better off with the AC, monsters will hit you less, making your current HP's that much more effective. Dodge is the better choice.
If your AC is 35, the AC bonus isn't bad, but Toughness comes back into being useful, because the HP's are effectively multiplied by your AC because your opponents hit so rarely. I'd pick Toughness, because those HP are also effective against spells and area attacks that ignore your AC, which is already very high.
It also depends on what your AC is (relative to CR).
Lets say your level 10,
If your AC is 15, taking dodge is pretty much worthless. AC 16 will not reduce how often you are hit. Toughness might let you survive long enough to get out of melee though.
If your AC is 25, you're better off with the AC, monsters will hit you less, making your current HP's that much more effective. Dodge is the better choice.
If your AC is 35, the AC bonus isn't bad, but Toughness comes back into being useful, because the HP's are effectively multiplied by your AC because your opponents hit so rarely. I'd pick Toughness, because those HP are also effective against spells and area attacks that ignore your AC, which is already very high.
The problem with this way of thinking about the Toughness feat is that this isn't a discussion of Dodge vs. Toughness. This is a discussion about how Toughness stacks up against every other feat in the game, so if your AC is 35 at level 10, then Toughness isn't the right choice. The right choice is "anything else."
Even if we were discussing whether to take Dodge or Toughness, Toughness suffers from not offering protection from many effects such as the strength drain from a shadow or an Enervation spell, which rely upon touch attacks. It also does not protect against combat maneuvers, which Dodge does. As such, Dodge's usefulness with respect to Toughness scales even faster than previously mentioned.
Wait, you're saying Dodge bonuses affect CMD?
Wait, you're saying Dodge bonuses affect CMD?It also depends on what your AC is (relative to CR).
Lets say your level 10,
If your AC is 15, taking dodge is pretty much worthless. AC 16 will not reduce how often you are hit. Toughness might let you survive long enough to get out of melee though.
If your AC is 25, you're better off with the AC, monsters will hit you less, making your current HP's that much more effective. Dodge is the better choice.
If your AC is 35, the AC bonus isn't bad, but Toughness comes back into being useful, because the HP's are effectively multiplied by your AC because your opponents hit so rarely. I'd pick Toughness, because those HP are also effective against spells and area attacks that ignore your AC, which is already very high.
The problem with this way of thinking about the Toughness feat is that this isn't a discussion of Dodge vs. Toughness. This is a discussion about how Toughness stacks up against every other feat in the game, so if your AC is 35 at level 10, then Toughness isn't the right choice. The right choice is "anything else."
Even if we were discussing whether to take Dodge or Toughness, Toughness suffers from not offering protection from many effects such as the strength drain from a shadow or an Enervation spell, which rely upon touch attacks. It also does not protect against combat maneuvers, which Dodge does. As such, Dodge's usefulness with respect to Toughness scales even faster than previously mentioned.
Yes
Combat Maneuver Defense
Each character and creature has a Combat Maneuver Defense (or CMD) that represents its ability to resist combat maneuvers. A creature's CMD is determined using the following formula:
CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier + miscellaneous modifiers
Special Size ModifierThe special size modifier for a creature's Combat Maneuver Defense is as follows:
Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8.
Some feats and abilities grant a bonus to your CMD when resisting specific maneuvers.
Miscellaneous ModifiersA creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD.
Looks like I need to add another point to my Fighter's CMD to make it 24 instead of 23 (thank you Dodge).
I'll bring this up to my GM so he knows of the revision and to its reasoning.
The assessment near the top of this thread was accurate.
Not getting hit (and thus AC) will always trump raw hitpoints.
I will disagree with this. So on a d20 roll the +1 gives a 5% difference in number needed to be rolled. This doesn't count the fact that a crit means that the hit happens and possibly even harder (not counting miss chances).
If you ask me if +1 to defense if more important than hp then I will say no. If you ask me if there are other choices then I will say yes. I would rather have something to improve my damage most times over my defense. I also like the hp. I feel like I am increasing my HD. My defenses is something that I can do other things for.
At 5th level, Toughness is already an extra level of HP for d10 classes. Most of the time that I have seen the +1 isn't that big of game changer. I can see the difference in the HP over the +1 defense. I have never felt bad about getting extra HP even if I felt was not really productive. Having a character that gets the defense and then is still hit all the time doesn't feel productive. Feeling good about surviving crits because I have extra HP makes me very happy.
Toughness > dodge.
Unless your are going for a feat tree for dodge. Fireballs, falls etc... allot of effects target HP, without AC.
Toughness > dodge.
Unless your are going for a feat tree for dodge. Fireballs, falls etc... allot of effects target HP, without AC.
Toughness isn't better than 1 AC. I can avoid entire melee attacks just because of that 1 AC, and it's saved my skin so many times as a fighter it's ridiculous. I can do less with 3 extra HP, and more with 1 AC. And we've also clarified that Dodge doesn't just add to AC, it adds to CMD as well, so it's got even more versatility than just a few HP.
On top of this, Dodge is a pre-req for quite a few feats, whereas Toughness is just a general(ly) weakling level feat. The best I can see from Toughness is being used as a Fighter Bonus feat to be replaced later on. It is otherwise much more fitting as a Character Trait than an actual feat due to its very minimal power (and very overrated power, I might say).
The choice is pretty obvious, and it's similar to assigning stats. I'd much rather have a 16 Dex and 12 Con than a 14 Dex and 14 Con (even as a Wizard), because +1 to AC is a heck of a lot better than an additional HP or 2 per level, especially when that bonus to AC also applies to CMD, and can save me from being tripped or disarmed or whatever.
Toughness > dodge.
Unless your are going for a feat tree for dodge. Fireballs, falls etc... allot of effects target HP, without AC.
Toughness isn't better than 1 AC. I can avoid entire melee attacks just because of that 1 AC, and it's saved my skin so many times as a fighter it's ridiculous. I can do less with 3 extra HP, and more with 1 AC. And we've also clarified that Dodge doesn't just add to AC, it adds to CMD as well, so it's got even more versatility than just a few HP.
On top of this, Dodge is a pre-req for quite a few feats, whereas Toughness is just a general(ly) weakling level feat. The best I can see from Toughness is being used as a Fighter Bonus feat to be replaced later on. It is otherwise much more fitting as a Character Trait than an actual feat due to its very minimal power (and very overrated power, I might say).
The choice is pretty obvious, and it's similar to assigning stats. I'd much rather have a 16 Dex and 12 Con than a 14 Dex and 14 Con (even as a Wizard), because +1 to AC is a heck of a lot better than an additional HP or 2 per level, especially when that bonus to AC also applies to CMD, and can save me from being tripped or disarmed or whatever.
Let's just be clear. 3.5 toughness is +3/HP. Pathfinder toughness is +3/ HP +1HP/level after third.
Toughness > dodge.
Unless your are going for a feat tree for dodge. Fireballs, falls etc... allot of effects target HP, without AC.
Toughness isn't better than 1 AC. I can avoid entire melee attacks just because of that 1 AC, and it's saved my skin so many times as a fighter it's ridiculous. I can do less with 3 extra HP, and more with 1 AC. And we've also clarified that Dodge doesn't just add to AC, it adds to CMD as well, so it's got even more versatility than just a few HP.
On top of this, Dodge is a pre-req for quite a few feats, whereas Toughness is just a general(ly) weakling level feat. The best I can see from Toughness is being used as a Fighter Bonus feat to be replaced later on. It is otherwise much more fitting as a Character Trait than an actual feat due to its very minimal power (and very overrated power, I might say).
The choice is pretty obvious, and it's similar to assigning stats. I'd much rather have a 16 Dex and 12 Con than a 14 Dex and 14 Con (even as a Wizard), because +1 to AC is a heck of a lot better than an additional HP or 2 per level, especially when that bonus to AC also applies to CMD, and can save me from being tripped or disarmed or whatever.
I do not think the same. I wish there were feats Toughness led to but I know what I get from the HP. Changing a d20 roll by 5% doesn't impress me. I have done enough games to see what crits do. I have been saved by the extra HP and haven't been saved that often by the +1 to defense. I have a character at the moment that I am scared playing because of the HP and getting crit and that is me staying out of combat. I have been subjected to a crit every game that I have played with the character and average is 90% of time targeted.
I did a character that was built for defense and having the extra hit points kept me up. I did the HP just to get through first couple of levels but it actually added up and I see the extra HP as a buffer to go with my Con. Found out how easy it is to get hit for massive damage.
I know there is many things that can happen but my experience shows me that most times that I get more out of HP than I do +1 to defense. That is the problem with this. It comes down to how one experiences the game. Such as with my character that gets hit with a lot of crits. I have a friend with a character that doesn't seem to be able to hit anything unless rolling a crit because bad rolls. Seems to make all the saves though.
As a wizard I almost never get Dodge, and I almost always get Toughness. 14 Dex + Dodge is not equivalent to 16 Dex. The reason to get 16 Dex is for that +3 to Initiative, which benefits what a wizard's primary focus always is: going first. When a wizard goes first, it is far easier for them to completely take physical damage out of the equation (of which the vast majority has to be targeted to begin with) than AoE damage. Thus, Toughness's extra hp comes into play far more than any Dodge bonus would.
Toughness > dodge.
Unless your are going for a feat tree for dodge. Fireballs, falls etc... allot of effects target HP, without AC.
Toughness isn't better than 1 AC. I can avoid entire melee attacks just because of that 1 AC, and it's saved my skin so many times as a fighter it's ridiculous. I can do less with 3 extra HP, and more with 1 AC. And we've also clarified that Dodge doesn't just add to AC, it adds to CMD as well, so it's got even more versatility than just a few HP.
On top of this, Dodge is a pre-req for quite a few feats, whereas Toughness is just a general(ly) weakling level feat. The best I can see from Toughness is being used as a Fighter Bonus feat to be replaced later on. It is otherwise much more fitting as a Character Trait than an actual feat due to its very minimal power (and very overrated power, I might say).
The choice is pretty obvious, and it's similar to assigning stats. I'd much rather have a 16 Dex and 12 Con than a 14 Dex and 14 Con (even as a Wizard), because +1 to AC is a heck of a lot better than an additional HP or 2 per level, especially when that bonus to AC also applies to CMD, and can save me from being tripped or disarmed or whatever.
I do not think the same. I wish there were feats Toughness led to but I know what I get from the HP. Changing a d20 roll by 5% doesn't impress me. I have done enough games to see what crits do. I have been saved by the extra HP and haven't been saved that often by the +1 to defense. I have a character at the moment that I am scared playing because of the HP and getting crit and that is me staying out of combat. I have been subjected to a crit every game that I have played with the character and average is 90% of time targeted.
I did a character that was built for defense and having the extra hit points kept me up. I did the HP just to get through first couple of levels but it actually added up and I see the extra HP as a buffer to go with my Con....
You must be crazy. What kind of Crit rules are you playing where 90% of the time they target you it's a critical threat? Are the GM's dice hacked or something?
I go AC because my AC saves me from melee hits. Many spells that are cast against us usually affect Touch AC or can catch us Flat-Footed, and they still have a chance to fail.
On top of this, IIRC, in order for them to make a Critical against you they need to Confirm it with a second D20 roll, and the total must be equal to or greater than your AC to confirm the Critical. So even if I have a +10 to hit going against an AC 35 creature, even if I roll a Nat 20 to Critically Threat, and another 20 afterward to Critically Confirm, I truly cannot confirm as my total bonuses are effectively a 30 AC, against the DC I need to confirm against (35).
The thing about AC is that even if the creature striking you has to critically threat you to hit you, it still has to hit your overall AC in order to confirm the critical. If it actually cannot confirm/score the critical on its highest possible roll, it can only do just that; hit you, for regular damage.
I am by no means saying HP isn't important, but in the case of where 1 AC can save me from damage of a complete blow, versus an extra 8 HP that won't save me if the creature can casually strike me with Power Attack, or trip/feint/disarm me, leaving me on my arse waiting for the end to come, the choice is obvious.
Tell me, what good is 8 HP going to do for a 5th level Fighter against Large Skeletal Ogres that casually strike at you for 15+ points of damage? Save me from outright dying? What about the case of CMD, is it going to save me from being tripped and triggering multiple attacks of opportunity from standing up? No, the Dodge feat can, and has done so, multiple times during this campaign we're in. It's saved my butt a heck of a lot more than a few measly 8 HP has. So can DR, Resists, and usage of more important mitigation feats that require Dodge (Hint Hint, Crane Style).
If you want to say that the little amount of HP is that gamebreaking, compared to a feat that applies so much more on so many more levels than a few hit points does, then by all means. But I've provided multiple instances where the Dodge feat has more than easily saved my face, and there are even more instances I can list where having 1 AC less has caused me to get hit multiple times more.
Extra AC is useless if:
- the attacker can hit you even if he rolls a 2
- the attacker misses you even if he rolls a 19
In these cases, reducing the chance to hit by 5% does absolutely nothing for you.
Both feats have their merits; I'd say Dodge is probably the better overall feat for a few reasons in that it's multi-dimensional (adds to AC, CMD, and is the beginning of a feat tree).
Question: On d20pfsrd.com, the description says Dodge bonuses SOMETIMES apply to Reflex saving throws. In which situations would the dodge bonuses apply to the Reflex throw?
What about the case of CMD, is it going to save me from being tripped and triggering multiple attacks of opportunity from standing up? No, the Dodge feat can, and has done so, multiple times during this campaign we're in.
I know it's besides the point, but how could Dodge have saved you when you said earlier in this thread that you didn't know Dodge bonuses added to your CMD?
Just curious, Does anyone make characters with a dex of 12 or less? And dodge would not even be a feat to get?
Greg
Just curious, Does anyone make characters with a dex of 12 or less? And dodge would not even be a feat to get?
Greg
Some classes can get Dodge as a bonus feat without having to meet the pre-requisites (i.e. Monk)
toughness is the feat i would choose between the two of them if i were playing a low hp or tanking character. i rarely use either to be honest, but on my fighter i use toughness. only time i would choose dodge is , like what was said above, if i were trying for mobility or any other feat using dodge as a prerequisite.
The problem with this way of thinking about the Toughness feat is that this isn't a discussion of Dodge vs. Toughness. This is a discussion about how Toughness stacks up against every other feat in the game, so if your AC is 35 at level 10, then Toughness isn't the right choice. The right choice is "anything else."
Even if we were discussing whether to take Dodge or Toughness, Toughness suffers from not offering protection from many effects such as the strength drain from a shadow or an Enervation spell, which rely upon touch attacks. It also does not protect against combat maneuvers, which Dodge does. As such, Dodge's usefulness with respect to Toughness scales even faster than previously mentioned.
I'm not disagreeing, there are better feats than Toughness. I think it is a good feat and there are situations where it is useful. If you go back and read a post of mine on the first page you'll see one. Dwarf Druid, low AC, high HP. Combined with elemental form DR, I used Toughness to survive a lot of situations. Things could enter melee, hit me and I'd flee really far and cast spells. My high HP made it possible and Toughness was part of that. It didn't make that possible alone, but it was one part of my character build.
I found it very useful on my Society Barbarian character. When your real defense is DR instead of AC, extra hit points help a lot.
My lvl 12 Barbarian has DR 9/ - and just shy of 200 HP when raging. The extra HP has saved his life multiple times.
I do not think the same. I wish there were feats Toughness led to but I know what I get from the HP. Changing a d20 roll by 5% doesn't impress me. I have done enough games to see what crits do. I have been saved by the extra HP and haven't been saved that often by the +1 to defense. I have a character at the moment that I am scared playing because of the HP and getting crit and that is me staying out of combat. I have been subjected to a crit every game that I have played with the character and average is 90% of time targeted.You must be crazy. What kind of Crit rules are you playing where 90% of the time they target you it's a critical threat? Are the GM's dice hacked or something?
No, I have just been playing the character and every GM has rolled in the open and rolls crits. A couple of adventures have been pretty much only me that has gotten hurt (others got damaged but nothing big). That is why I have learned to like extra HP. But that has been my experience. I had another character the other night that I was just trying to be quiet and go. Another player though said "You got this because he has to roll a crit" which is what happened. Didn't confirm but it included a grab. I think it comes down to what people experience.
I appreciate the thread and what everyone is writing as it is allowing me to see different ways to make some new characters. I am glad to see the debate going on.
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I feel that the importance of toughness depend on the level at which you start playing and the kind of encounters your GM run.
If you start playing a first level those extra hp often are a life saver for a few levels, if you start at middle or higher levels most builds will need that feat.
If your GM only use encounters with a single or few enemies, all dealing a lot of damage it is less important, it he use large numbers of enemy dealing middle to low level of damage (so that the meele guys can't stop all of them from reaching the casters/missile users) or attacks that hit most of the party members for middle damage it can be a life saver. Those few hit point can mean the difference between being down and bleeding (or dead) or hanging on with a few hit points and being capable to act.
IMO Toughness is made better for character builds that do not or are not able to rely on having a high AC but frequently engage in melee. This is doubly true if that same character doesn't possess a high standing Con score.
In short: Barbarians <3 Toughness.
Also other classes that weren't specifically built for melee but the focus on building that character is with melee in mind. For example the Alchemist class isn't built for melee but if your character build is focused on them being melee centric Toughness is definitely a good option with their typically low HP totals. This is especially true due to their armor limitations.
One build I've been wanting to try out but never had the chance to is the "touch" wizard. The idea is an arcane caster who actually hand delivers touch spells. Obviously this is quite risky and what not, but I've looked into it and I think its almost viable.
The reason why I bring this up is the interesting fact that a 1st level wizard with +5 con bonus (racial) and a toad + toughness can have 17HP. Interesting since that is how many HP a barbarian with 20 con has. Just some food for thought. (of course you could also splash wizard for a Con barbarian for some lvl 1 buff spells and scroll creation).
Since wizards can only really get moderate amounts of protection, and much of that is in form of miss chance (mirror image, blur, displacement, invisibility,ect), I feel that having a buffer of HP for one that is more likely to be directly attacked is very important.
Now that wizards have d6 HP, the improvement of toughness, the favored class bonus... PF wizards are as durable as rogues were in 3.5. Heck, the protections on the wizard can easily be better in fact. The BAB suffers quite a bit, so that is where touch comes into play. Sure it could be a magus instead, but magus aren't full casters.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I never expected this thread to go so long. Apparently, Toughness is something of a "borderline" feat.
To try and draw this away from "Toughness vs Dodge" a bit, consider the following build and whether you'd let Toughness make the cut:
Tiefling (Oni-Spawn)
Cleric of Iomedae 2
Domains: Glory (Heroism) and Sun
STR 16
DEX 14
CON 13 (bump at 4th)
INT 12
WIS 15 (bump at 8th)
CHA 10
FEAT1:Armor of the Pit (+2 natural armor)
Plans to shift between melee and support as needed. Wears armor and a buckler, carries a longsword.
Feats under consideration starting at level 3 are:
Combat Casting
Weapon Focus
Toughness
[Others - feel free to make suggestions]
Caps at level 12. PFS character.
What do you do, take max or take the median? If you take max, Toughness is never necessary, but I could potentially see it if you went with the median and decided to make a d6 class with 10 or less constitution :oWhen you managed to roll really poorly on HP its sometimes worth it.Wow, people still roll HP? ;)
In my game at level 1 you get max HP, then at every other level you get half your HD rounded up. d4=3, d6=4, d8=5, d10=6, d12=7. This puts more emphasis on class HD and your CON modifier when it comes to HP, as opposed to randomness. I also do this with every NPC - even monsters already pre-statted (except they don't get max HP with their fist HD), to keep the balance. This means that everyone's HP are a little above average, but it also ensures that no one is "gimped".
I never expected this thread to go so long. Apparently, Toughness is something of a "borderline" feat.
To try and draw this away from "Toughness vs Dodge" a bit, consider the following build and whether you'd let Toughness make the cut:
** spoiler omitted **
For clerics with 14 con planned I would say skip it, esp since its society. 10 HP assuming class point being put into skills (clerics are skill starved, and as self healers aren't HP starved).
A better "no build in mind" feat would be improved initiative. Going earlier makes your buffs that much better. It makes you less likely be attacked while flat footed. +6 bonus is decent. Spell focus conjuration is also a solid choice, should you wish to do any summoning in the future (to qualify for augment summon/superior summon). Now summoning might not seem the best "support/melee" spell, but as a 3/4 BAB character having a flanking buddy is nice, and your party should appriciate it as well (in addition extra meat shields = less needed party healing = more spells used on non healing).
The silly thing about comparing Toughness and Dodge is that there is an actual mathematical answer that I've posted twice now. As far as that goes, the discussion should be about which side of the bubble you will land on in actual play.
Is Toughness the best feat at any given level? I would guess maybe at level 1, since characters are so fragile at that level and Toughness is worth more, but probably not at higher levels. IMO dodge is not that great unless you already get hit pretty rarely, which seems unlikely given that the DM picks the monsters.
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For clerics with 14 con planned I would say skip it, esp since its society. 10 HP assuming class point being put into skills (clerics are skill starved, and as self healers aren't HP starved).I never expected this thread to go so long. Apparently, Toughness is something of a "borderline" feat.
To try and draw this away from "Toughness vs Dodge" a bit, consider the following build and whether you'd let Toughness make the cut:
** spoiler omitted **
Heh, yeah, the 12 INT is in there for the extra skill point. For FCB, I've been waffling between HP, skill point, and +1 to CL checks to overcome the SR of evil outsiders.
A better "no build in mind" feat would be improved initiative. Going earlier makes your buffs that much better. It makes you less likely be attacked while flat footed. +6 bonus is decent.
Hm, fair point...
Spell focus conjuration is also a solid choice, should you wish to do any summoning in the future (to qualify for augment summon/superior summon). Now summoning might not seem the best "support/melee" spell, but as a 3/4 BAB character having a flanking buddy is nice, and your party should appriciate it as well (in addition extra meat shields = less needed party healing = more spells used on non healing).
Not interested in summoning, really. Mainly for the extra bookkeeping, though also I imagine that this character might have qualms about summoning creatures to throw into deadly situations on his behalf.
For my PC's I usually look at 3 things:
1) The % difference toughness will make. If I have an elf wizard (prob con 12) he is going to average around 5 points a level. So toughness is a 20% increase. In my opinion, that is freakin great. If I have a dwarf barb (prob con 16+) he going to average around 10 points a level. So toughness is 10% increase. Still good, but not as great.
2) Are we starting at level 1 or 2? If so it is uaually more desireable.
3) Build. Is the build intended to get in combat or try to avoid it. Does the build have other defenses that are pretty good to reduce the need. In other words, is the increased hp likely to be needed?
After all that there is also the 'meh' factor. It is a kinda boring feat. If the build doesn't have lots of other spectacular abilities, I will probably want the feat for something else.