I'm playing a ranger in the Carrion Crown AP, currently in the first module. I'm 4th level, and thinking about my feat pick for 5th. My intention had been to more or less follow Treantmonk's feat progression for the switch-hitter, but it's turning out that I'm the best BAB melee front our party's got, so I'm not doing much switch-hitting, and feel a need to lean toward boosting my melee chops (plus I like saying "I'll go first").
I've picked up a very nice small cat (bobcat, in this case, as a cheetah would be hard to find in Ustalav) animal companion, and am having a surprisingly good time incorporating him into play. But I worry so about his little 2 HD self, and am thinking of picking up Boon Companion - to fortify him, and give me a nice 5 HD flanking buddy for melee.
Current feats (some I might wish I hadn't picked, but...) are:
1: Dodge, Power Attack, Toughness
2: Rapid Shot
3: Cleave
We're fighting tons of undead, and to have my kitty also have my undead FE bonus and help me flank seems like it would be great - but I'd love the input of the Pathfinder deep thinkers on this one. Is Boon Companion the way to go, or is there a better path?
Well the boost to that animal would definatly help its survival by raising it up to be on par with a druids of the same level as you. Outside of having to spend a feat there isn't much drawback to having the better companion at your side if your enjoying him.
One question how is your kitty getting your Favored Enemy bonus?
I haven't played CC, but I like Boon Companion. I take it almost every time as a 5th level ranger. If you're a half-orc, the new feat that is 1/2 boon companion and adds new animals to the list...I think its called beast rider...is nice too.
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If you are not a single-classed druid and you use your animal companion consistently (I have seen plenty of people who completely waste the potential of their companions), it's a must have. My Sylvan Sorcerer picked it up at 3rd level and hasn't regretted it (except for Herolab not being able to handle the feat).
it turns your kitty from a toy into a bonified Second meatshield. Go for it.
One question how is your kitty getting your Favored Enemy bonus?A ranger's animal companion shares his favored enemy and favored terrain bonuses.
Wow my groups perma-ranger has never noticed that man that so means I need to adjust this weeks encounters or he and the Tiger are going to beast one of the Demons in one round.
It's pretty much THE 5th level feat.
Good point though i do need to give the BBEG a couple of minions now or that fights over when the roll in on there +8 initative checks.
Half your FE bonus as MOVE action. its not that great. I spent a long time writing a post, while drunk, with creepy mannequins in the loft I'm staying instaring at me, and the post disappeared.
Think they are refering to the last line which i bolded. We just never caught it before.
The second option is to form a close bond with an animal companion. A ranger who selects an animal companion can choose from the following list: badger, bird, camel, cat (small), dire rat, dog, horse, pony, snake (viper or constrictor), or wolf. If the campaign takes place wholly or partly in an aquatic environment, the ranger may choose a shark instead. This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the ranger on his adventures as appropriate for its kind. A ranger's animal companion shares his favored enemy and favored terrain bonuses.
Awesome. Thanks for the quick confirmation of how awesome it'll be. Flanking and a +4 FE bonus? With Cleave in the mix? Funfunfun.
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Boon companion is on my list of "so obviously fantastic that it can only be described as overpowered."
I personally hate the feat since it essentially makes animal companion druids a waste since you can get the same benefit plus a domain for the price of a single feat. I put "boon companion" in the category of "power creep" that eventually destroyed 3.5.
You are certainly free to disagree with me James.
My general rule on whether something is overpowered is if you explain it to someone and they go "Freaking AWESOME! I gotta do THAT!"
Which I believe we saw the OP do here.
No single feat should give that sort of orgasmic delight.
Not to mention every freaking druid or other AC build considers it to be essential to the concept.
It's exactly what the OP said. "Awesome."
Too awesome.
I did say "Awesome" twice. But that was colored by the fact that I'll get to role play this character with his animal companion serving some role other than a damage-dodging skulker in the back, keeping the wizard company (logical role for a wizard, less so for a trained bobcat).
I don't see it as a single feat giving me such delight - I see it as taking an ability that I already have by virtue of my class, which feels a bit underpowered, and giving it some more juice. But I have yet to actually play it, so I'll have to reserve judgment on it for a bit.
I did say "Awesome" twice. But that was colored by the fact that I'll get to role play this character with his animal companion serving some role other than a damage-dodging skulker in the back, keeping the wizard company (logical role for a wizard, less so for a trained bobcat).
I don't see it as a single feat giving me such delight - I see it as taking an ability that I already have by virtue of my class, which feels a bit underpowered, and giving it some more juice. But I have yet to actually play it, so I'll have to reserve judgment on it for a bit.
No no, you were quite right to react as you did. The feat is every bit as good as you immediately recognized it to be. It makes your animal companion fully as powerful as a druid who has dedicated an entire class feature to the option.
boon companion is not over powered. it is a good feat to be sure, but not so broken that it makes your unmanagable to a dm. "over powered" is a stupid term that gets an excessive application to anything that makes a character better in combat.
also keep in perspective that a druids animal companion is still better because of the spell lists and class features that druids get. speak with animals, massive bonuses to handel animal, ect..
boon companion is not over powered. it is a good feat to be sure, but not so broken that it makes your unmanagable to a dm. "over powered" is a stupid term that gets an excessive application to anything that makes a character better in combat.
also keep in perspective that a druids animal companion is still better because of the spell lists and class features that druids get. speak with animals, massive bonuses to handel animal, ect..
Forgive me if I don't take your word for it as the ultimate authority on overpowerdness Orc dude.
I stand by my definition, which is that when every friggin' character that has a remote opportunity to benefit from a feat grabs the feat and it's listed in umpteen optimized builds....
... it's overpowered.
Now, that doesn't mean there aren't WORSE examples. But boon companion is overpowered. It's a feat that essentially replaces a class feature. That's like taking a feat to get "sneak attack" or "favored enemy."
Both of which, at the rate things are going for PF, are probably on the way...
Odd I didn't realize boon companion replaced a class feature I thought it added to a class feature....how strange.
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My viewpoint: it's not overpowered - it's a feat tax on a Ranger so they can have an Animal Companion that doesn't have to be cosseted and protected all the time.
Without Boon Companion, a Ranger's animal companion is three levels behind the owner. That means that it's going to be all but useless in combat against the typical opponents the party will be facing; one or two good hits and it's going to be "Adios, Amigo!", and it's time to go through the summoning ritual again, and to re-train any tricks other than the bonus tricks. Even if the companion does survive, it generally doesn't really do enough damage to be all that relevant.
I stand by my definition, which is that when every friggin' character that has a remote opportunity to benefit from a feat grabs the feat and it's listed in umpteen optimized builds....
... it's overpowered.
Now, that doesn't mean there aren't WORSE examples. But boon companion is overpowered. It's a feat that essentially replaces a class feature. That's like taking a feat to get "sneak attack" or "favored enemy."
Both of which, at the rate things are going for PF, are probably on the way...
By your definition power attack and weapon finesse are overpowered, too. Because everyone who benefits from it takes it.
And while you could say that about power attack, weapon finesse is by far not too strong. More like the opposite. It is a feat tax is you want to play a weak but dextrous melee combatant. But by your definition it is overpowered.
And to say that boon companion replaces a class feature is not quite right. It upgrades a weaker form of class feature to a full class feature.
So it's not like a feat giving sneak attack but like a feat that lets you count as 4 levels higher for sneak attack damage capped by caracter level.
Just taking boon companion without a class feature would do nothing.
Unlike a feat that would say: You get a favored enemy or sneak attack.
I don't say that boon companion is not strong (perhaps even a little too strong). I only say your argumentation might be flawed.
Taking Boon Companion as a druid pretty much gives you the spells and abilities of the Fur/Feather domain at the cost of a feat and the cost of the weak/nonexistent AC up until level 7 (5 if you delay Natural Spell.)
Only half of the spells are any good and not until level 5 or 7, but the granted abilities are nice.
Might be worth it if you're starting at a high level and aren't using the feats for something else.
My general rule on whether something is overpowered is if you explain it to someone and they go "Freaking AWESOME! I gotta do THAT!"
100% agree. If a feat or archetype or rage ability or whatever is so good that it is hard to justify NOT taking it, then you have encountered a balance issue.
With that said, I think boon companion is a solid choice for your 5th level feat. With the melee build you are focusing on I think an alternative choice might be Furious Focus, but I would have to hear a really convincing argument to convince me that anything other than Boon Companion would be a good use of a 5th level feat.
I stand by my definition, which is that when every friggin' character that has a remote opportunity to benefit from a feat grabs the feat and it's listed in umpteen optimized builds....
... it's overpowered.
Now, that doesn't mean there aren't WORSE examples. But boon companion is overpowered. It's a feat that essentially replaces a class feature. That's like taking a feat to get "sneak attack" or "favored enemy."
Both of which, at the rate things are going for PF, are probably on the way...
By your definition power attack and weapon finesse are overpowered, too. Because everyone who benefits from it takes it.
And while you could say that about power attack, weapon finesse is by far not too strong. More like the opposite. It is a feat tax is you want to play a weak but dextrous melee combatant. But by your definition it is overpowered.
And to say that boon companion replaces a class feature is not quite right. It upgrades a weaker form of class feature to a full class feature.
So it's not like a feat giving sneak attack but like a feat that lets you count as 4 levels higher for sneak attack damage capped by caracter level.
Just taking boon companion without a class feature would do nothing.
Unlike a feat that would say: You get a favored enemy or sneak attack.I don't say that boon companion is not strong (perhaps even a little too strong). I only say your argumentation might be flawed.
wow this is almost exactly what i was going to reply with. i like orc dude, you are required to call me orc dude from now on AD.
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Try as hard as they can, a Ranger can never get some of the best options for an Animal Companion either. Having a full progression companion of one of the weaker AC choices isn't really OP, IMHO. Personally I think the idea of a Ranger having more limited choice AND having a weaker companion is a little silly. I don't see people take Boon Companion because they think it's awesome. They take it because they see no other way for part of their class to not drop dead every combat. That certainly indicates to me that something is broken, but broken is not overpowered.
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When are you taking this feat? The earliest is 5th level. That means you don't get natural spell then. Tell me that's 'optimal' for most druids, and that 'every freaking druid' will look to delay natural spell. No?
Then they aren't taking it until 7th level...
My sorcerer took Boon Companion at 3rd. Paizo has greatly increased the number of classes which can gain an animal companion. The character is currently 4th level and the smal tiger has been very effective, including preventing a TPK at level 2 when all the PCs were bleeding out or unconscious due to Color Spray.
I'm playing a ranger in the Carrion Crown AP, currently in the first module. I'm 4th level, and thinking about my feat pick for 5th. My intention had been to more or less follow Treantmonk's feat progression for the switch-hitter, but it's turning out that I'm the best BAB melee front our party's got, so I'm not doing much switch-hitting, and feel a need to lean toward boosting my melee chops (plus I like saying "I'll go first").
I've picked up a very nice small cat (bobcat, in this case, as a cheetah would be hard to find in Ustalav) animal companion, and am having a surprisingly good time incorporating him into play. But I worry so about his little 2 HD self, and am thinking of picking up Boon Companion - to fortify him, and give me a nice 5 HD flanking buddy for melee.
Current feats (some I might wish I hadn't picked, but...) are:
1: Dodge, Power Attack, Toughness
2: Rapid Shot
3: CleaveWe're fighting tons of undead, and to have my kitty also have my undead FE bonus and help me flank seems like it would be great - but I'd love the input of the Pathfinder deep thinkers on this one. Is Boon Companion the way to go, or is there a better path?
If you had an animal companion that advanced at 7th level I would have told you to get deadly aim at 5th and boon companion at 7th. Since a small cat advances at 4th level, it's a toss up. If you really aren't getting much opportunity to use your bow, grab boon companion.
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Boone companion is pretty broken actually. Bastard snipes everything from Raiders to Deathclaws before you even see em coming.
Boone companion is pretty broken actually. Bastard snipes everything from Raiders to Deathclaws before you even see em coming.
You have to set his tactics to not attack on sight, so annoying when trying to sneak and he suddenly pops shots off at some killer monster in the distance who then runs up and punches you.
On topic I don't see big issue with the power level of boon companion. It makes PrC druids doable, it makes rangers have a reason to have a pet, and it applies a feat tax to archetypes that give up full progression in their companion to regain full progression.
On the issue of "must have feats" yeah, this feat is pretty good, one that would be rated Blue on build guides for sure. Its still not an auto pick, and its still not overpowered. I take the position that if a feat isn't "blue" or at least "green" on the power level charts, then its underpowered and should either not be a feat or should be buffed up (yeah i know if this were to happen the calibration for what is blue/green/yellow/red would adjust, but narrowing the real difference between bad and good would still be great). I am of the opinion that it is too easy to make poor characters (feat traps, build traps, fluffy bunnies not having fangs ect) rather than being to easy to make powerful characters.
I will be taking this feat twice, once for my imp familiar and once for my imp animal companion from the diabloist PRC.
"Overpowered" is thrown around too much. Many of the feats that are being tossed out as "proof" that boon companion isn't overpowered also meet my definition of "overpowered."
To be clear it's not really even the overpowered part of the feat that bugs me so much. It's that EVERYBODY TAKES IT. Yeah, I'd say the same for "power attack" or some of the other feats.
When a feat becomes so ubiquitous that people are looked at funny if their character doesn't take it, to me that detracts from the flexibility of the game. There are too many cookie cutter builds out there. I have gotten to where a player submits a character sheet and I shake my head "another one?"
I suppose my gripe is that I just don't like to see the game evolving into a bunch of cookie cutter builds that end up that way because it's just foolish not to take the feat.
Even IF the feat is taken just to "keep an otherwise weak companion alive" (which I dispute, by the way, there are OTHER ways to keep your companions alive) it still ends up being taken over and over again.
I just want some diversity in the game. Feats that leap out and grab the player by the throat and say "you HAVE to TAKE ME" just bug me.
That's the bottom line.
"Overpowered" is thrown around too much. Many of the feats that are being tossed out as "proof" that boon companion isn't overpowered also meet my definition of "overpowered."
To be clear it's not really even the overpowered part of the feat that bugs me so much. It's that EVERYBODY TAKES IT. Yeah, I'd say the same for "power attack" or some of the other feats.
When a feat becomes so ubiquitous that people are looked at funny if their character doesn't take it, to me that detracts from the flexibility of the game. There are too many cookie cutter builds out there. I have gotten to where a player submits a character sheet and I shake my head "another one?"
I suppose my gripe is that I just don't like to see the game evolving into a bunch of cookie cutter builds that end up that way because it's just foolish not to take the feat.
Even IF the feat is taken just to "keep an otherwise weak companion alive" (which I dispute, by the way, there are OTHER ways to keep your companions alive) it still ends up being taken over and over again.
I just want some diversity in the game. Feats that leap out and grab the player by the throat and say "you HAVE to TAKE ME" just bug me.
That's the bottom line.
Now when you explain your stance like this I can get behind you. Diminishing flexibility bugs me as well.
Then the reaction should be to BOOST the poor feats to the point where you say "I love this feat, but I love this other feat too ! Oh, woe is me, how can I choose ?"
One thing to keep in mind is that your animal companion shares your favored enemies. So, raising it's stats (via Boon Companion) will definitely make it a more likely to land attacks, thus making it a much more formidable opponent (and not merely a distraction).
Also, any DPR it provides is in addition to your own (more damage = less likely your enemies are gonna swing on you or your allies = more survivability for the entire group).
Power attack is a start of several feat chains. Its also a low level feat that scales. Of course many people are going to take it. Its worth taking at low level starts, its required for many builds, and its still worth it on its own late game.
MORE feats need to be this good.
Boon companion isn't even close to being as good or common as power attack. Only a handful of classes can even take it, and only a handful of build actually want/need it (even then timing of it is debatable).
The idea of diminishing flexibility is also false. The number of viable builds has gone up. Most of the classes are very flexible in builds, with more than a handful of decent to great builds being possible in each class. With about 20 classes being allowed there is hundreds of possible builds. Sure some of them will have feats and abilities in common, and some will pretty much be re-skinned clones of other classes. This still doesn't diminish the flexibility of the system.
Now if you were to show me a list of top possible builds and most of them had a certain feat, and the builds were only top level because of making use of that feat (from its actual use, not its following feat chain), then yes, that feat would be OP.
I'd still rather play an inquisitor than a ranger. The feat can't be that good.