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Rules Questions


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

The character concept that I'm working with now is a Drunkard and Wastrel along the lines of Inigo Montoya from The Princess Bride. Of course, when I say "along the lines", I mean that I'm going for the Duelist prestige class, however, I'd like to optimize a bit. The part that I'm struggling with, and why this ISN'T posted in the advice section is that I'm thinking of doing a monk/barbarian to get the most of my drinking.

First, I'll do 4 levels of Drunken Master of Many Styles, so as to have access to unarmed strikes, wis bonus to AC, and of course the style feats. Level 4 is my cutoff, as that's getting him a ki pool. Of course, at lv 3 he's got the Drunken Ki class feature.

Then, I'll make up the rest of the requirements for Duelist with a Drunken Brute Barbarian. (Perhaps a good point for backstory, in that the drinking consumed him, so he couldn't continue his monastic lifestyle)
Anyway, the signature ability for the Drunken Brute is his ability to maintain a rage for one round by drinking strong alcohol...as a move action.

Also, I'm considering taking the Fast Drinker feat, moving the alcohol consumption for temporary ki from a standard action to a swift action. If I do this, the Question is "How many actions, and of what kind, does it take for me to gain a temporary ki point AND get a free round of rage?"

Does my swift action drink qualify for the free rage AND the temp. ki? Do I need to burn a move action as well?


galahad2112 wrote:

The character concept that I'm working with now is a Drunkard and Wastrel along the lines of Inigo Montoya from The Princess Bride. Of course, when I say "along the lines", I mean that I'm going for the Duelist prestige class, however, I'd like to optimize a bit. The part that I'm struggling with, and why this ISN'T posted in the advice section is that I'm thinking of doing a monk/barbarian to get the most of my drinking.

First, I'll do 4 levels of Drunken Master of Many Styles, so as to have access to unarmed strikes, wis bonus to AC, and of course the style feats. Level 4 is my cutoff, as that's getting him a ki pool. Of course, at lv 3 he's got the Drunken Ki class feature.

Then, I'll make up the rest of the requirements for Duelist with a Drunken Brute Barbarian. (Perhaps a good point for backstory, in that the drinking consumed him, so he couldn't continue his monastic lifestyle)
Anyway, the signature ability for the Drunken Brute is his ability to maintain a rage for one round by drinking strong alcohol...as a move action.

Also, I'm considering taking the Fast Drinker feat, moving the alcohol consumption for temporary ki from a standard action to a swift action. If I do this, the Question is "How many actions, and of what kind, does it take for me to gain a temporary ki point AND get a free round of rage?"

Does my swift action drink qualify for the free rage AND the temp. ki? Do I need to burn a move action as well?

You have Full-Round Actions, Standard Actions, Move Actions, Swift Actions, Free Actions, and Immediate Actions.

The first three are self-explanatory.

The second set of three are different in their functions. A Swift Action and a Free Action, as well as an Immediate Action can be done without consuming a Standard, Movement, or Full-Round Action. But here are the differences:

An Immediate Action can be taken during the turn of any other creature/player, and is perfect for timing things right. This is usually limited to one per round, but varies upon the effect(s) desired from the Immediate Action.

A Free Action is just that; an Action that can be done with no consequence at all. The limit on this is only the DM's Discretion (For example, making a large speech isn't something you can do in 6 seconds...)

A Swift Action functions nearly the same way as it does a Free Action; however, it specifically states within the RAW that each creature or character may only take one Swift Action per turn.

In regards to your question, (and if I am reading your question right), you are more-or-less asking if a Swift Action can be done more than once, or if it's stackable in regards to what you can include with it. Neither. A Swift Action is something you can (almost always) do without consequence, but can only do so once per turn.

With a Swift Action, you can get a Free Rage round, and with a Swift Action, you can get a temporary Ki point. However, you can only choose one or the other, as a character is only allotted one Swift Action per turn. If you want both, you must spend a Move Action to do so. Otherwise, you should pick one, and a build such as that, no matter how enduring it may appear/look, isn't something that should be self-sustaining for a nearly infinite period of time.

Hope that helps! :)


My question is that since I can use a swift action to drink strong alcohol, and there are 2 abilities that say "when you drink strong alcohol, this effect happens", and only then do the ability descriptions say what kind of action is required to drink, does my ability to drink as a swift action give me both Ki and Rage, or does it just give me Ki, and/or CAN it give me rage at all, as the free round of rage ability describes drinking as a move action. ???


galahad2112 wrote:
My question is that since I can use a swift action to drink strong alcohol, and there are 2 abilities that say "when you drink strong alcohol, this effect happens", and only then do the ability descriptions say what kind of action is required to drink, does my ability to drink as a swift action give me both Ki and Rage, or does it just give me Ki, and/or CAN it give me rage at all, as the free round of rage ability describes drinking as a move action. ???

Ah, my answer was wrong. (Though my answer is technically still correct going against the question I thought was proposed, it was just misinterpreted.)

If you have 2 effects that give you benefits from drinking (such as drinking strong alcohol gives you a Ki Point, and drinking strong alcohol gives you an extra Round of Rage), I don't see why they wouldn't stack.

Unless the RAW states that you can select only one effect to receive from inducing alcohol, or that obtaining the Ki Point or extra Round of Rage requires a Swift Action on your part (I mean that the benefits state they are mutually exclusive to other effects related to drinking strong alcohol), they should be able to stack.

The GM might question you on this, so if I were you, I'd get facts straight, do some research, and present facts (or lack thereof, in this case) to the GM before he tries to call you out on it.


Exactly, that's why I'm here ;P


After a quick review of the relevant abilities, it seems to me that you should be using the slower action to gain both benefits. I.e. if you use ki drink as a standard action you can gain both the extra ki and extra rage, but drinking as a move action will only give you the extra rage. With the fast drinker feat, taking the move action to drink (the slower effect) will give you both the rage and ki, but using the swift action would only give you the extra ki.

That's how I would rule it in my game, but I think you have a great concept. Others might disagree.


ToxicNecrochris wrote:

After a quick review of the relevant abilities, it seems to me that you should be using the slower action to gain both benefits. I.e. if you use ki drink as a standard action you can gain both the extra ki and extra rage, but drinking as a move action will only give you the extra rage. With the fast drinker feat, taking the move action to drink (the slower effect) will give you both the rage and ki, but using the swift action would only give you the extra ki.

That's how I would rule it in my game, but I think you have a great concept. Others might disagree.

That's houseruling. While I have nothing against house ruling, as people can play the game however they wish (as long as it's in mutual agreement amongst the people), it does not change the fact that the RAW does not support the view of the DM.

It doesn't say the DM is wrong, or that he can't change the rule around if he so desires, but as far as a Rules question is concerned, we stick with the RAW (unless there is no proper correlation stated), and there is no RAW supporting that concept.

In a general/generic Pathfinder campaign or game, he would be able to get away with utilizing both feats as a Swift Action, and that's that. The DM changing the rules for "balancing" (which isn't wrong, but is the DM's rules, not the rules of the Book,) the character with the party/encounter is just that; the DM making rules up to make the gameplay fair/challenging/whatever.

Doesn't change the fact that the RAW (or lack thereof) supports the concept that he can get away with gaining both a Ki Point and a Round of Rage with a Swift Action for drinking Strong Alcohol.


Well actually by RAW, he can't get both benefits from a swift action as the feat specifically states in only applies to the Ki effect.

Fast Drinker:
Benefit: Drinking strong alcohol to gain temporary ki, takes a swift action rather than a standard action.

If I were houseruling, I would make a custom feat that allows the drunken brute to drink as a swift action, which would allow both feats to stack because the action times are the same.


Toxic the thing is the Barbaian ability isn't an action to gain rage its a reduction in the time to drink a potion or alcohol that has a rider that alcohol drank in this way makes the rounds rage free.

Its FAQ worthy in my opinion.


this might be a buzz kill but i though monks had to be lawful and barb's had to be any non-lawful. but that depends on if you follow these rules in your game.


I believe this build is suffering an alignment change do to the excessive drinking.

Also its possible that martial artist and druken monk stack I havent checked.


ToxicNecrochris wrote:

Well actually by RAW, he can't get both benefits from a swift action as the feat specifically states in only applies to the Ki effect.

If I were houseruling, I would make a custom feat that allows the drunken brute to drink as a swift action, which would allow both feats to stack because the action times are the same.

Ah. I thought there were feats/class features on both classes he mentioned that allowed you to receive the Ki and Rage points/rounds from drinking Strong Alcohol, and that there was a feat/trait that allowed the character to drink something as a swift action, meaning the character would still get both points from the same drink

But if the RAW says that only the Ki Point is affected (that is, the character can only drink it for a Ki Point as a Swift Action, anything else is Move/Standard Action), then he only gets the Ki Point, not the Rage round.


Red Leaf wrote:
this might be a buzz kill but i though monks had to be lawful and barb's had to be any non-lawful. but that depends on if you follow these rules in your game.

You are like that guy at the party who says riding a flaming bicycle down the stairs is a bad idea. Buzz kill indeed.

But you are right. Chaos and Law are primary tenets of the Pathfinder rule set, and best not to be trifled with.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
ToxicNecrochris wrote:

Well actually by RAW, he can't get both benefits from a swift action as the feat specifically states in only applies to the Ki effect.

If I were houseruling, I would make a custom feat that allows the drunken brute to drink as a swift action, which would allow both feats to stack because the action times are the same.

Ah. I thought there were feats/class features on both classes he mentioned that allowed you to receive the Ki and Rage points/rounds from drinking Strong Alcohol, and that there was a feat/trait that allowed the character to drink something as a swift action, meaning the character would still get both points from the same drink

But if the RAW says that only the Ki Point is affected (that is, the character can only drink it for a Ki Point as a Swift Action, anything else is Move/Standard Action), then he only gets the Ki Point, not the Rage round.

Except the Barb ability simply says when he drinks alcohol he extends the rage for the round. It's not an action thats says do this to get this it says you now do this(drinking potions and alcohol) quicker if you do it(drink a potion or alcohol) and it was alcohol instead of its normal effects you rage this round for free.

Allowing to two to work together really comes down to if losing the normal affects of the alcohol still allows the monk to gain KI from it.

Dark Archive

Red Leaf wrote:
this might be a buzz kill but i though monks had to be lawful and barb's had to be any non-lawful. but that depends on if you follow these rules in your game.

from the book:

Quote:
A monk who becomes nonlawful cannot gain new levels as a monk but retains all monk abilities.

So the monk would only lose the ability to gain new monk levels, but nothing else.

Now if he where going the other way:

Quote:
A barbarian who becmes lawful loses the ability to rage and cannot gain more levels as a barbarian. She retains all other benefits of the class.

They would lose the ability to rage. This is why they went monk --> Barbarian.


Talonhawke wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
ToxicNecrochris wrote:

Well actually by RAW, he can't get both benefits from a swift action as the feat specifically states in only applies to the Ki effect.

If I were houseruling, I would make a custom feat that allows the drunken brute to drink as a swift action, which would allow both feats to stack because the action times are the same.

Ah. I thought there were feats/class features on both classes he mentioned that allowed you to receive the Ki and Rage points/rounds from drinking Strong Alcohol, and that there was a feat/trait that allowed the character to drink something as a swift action, meaning the character would still get both points from the same drink

But if the RAW says that only the Ki Point is affected (that is, the character can only drink it for a Ki Point as a Swift Action, anything else is Move/Standard Action), then he only gets the Ki Point, not the Rage round.

Except the Barb ability simply says when he drinks alcohol he extends the rage for the round. It's not an action thats says do this to get this it says you now do this(drinking potions and alcohol) quicker if you do it(drink a potion or alcohol) and it was alcohol instead of its normal effects you rage this round for free.

Allowing to two to work together really comes down to if losing the normal affects of the alcohol still allows the monk to gain KI from it.

Well, no one really brought in quotes from the RAW except for the Monk able to drink Alcohol as a Swift Action to gain a Ki Point.

Honestly though? I wouldn't know. According to the statement you just provided combined with the RAW that was just posted, it all depends on if the abilities are mutually exclusive.


Happler wrote:
So the monk would only lose the ability to gain new monk levels, but nothing else.

Sweet, someone get the gasoline, the flaming bike maneuver is back on!

Talonhawke wrote:

Except the Barb ability simply says when he drinks alcohol he extends the rage for the round. It's not an action thats says do this to get this it says you now do this(drinking potions and alcohol) quicker if you do it(drink a potion or alcohol) and it was alcohol instead of its normal effects you rage this round for free.

Allowing to two to work together really comes down to if losing the normal affects of the alcohol still allows the monk to gain KI from it.

I see what you are saying now.

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