I am looking to play a Suli Paladin with the Oath of Vengeance in an upcoming game. My concept is for a hard hitting all out offensive character, but at the same time I want him to survive. He will be wielding a Falchion and taking power attack at first level. The problem is the feats after that, especially at the lower levels. Incremental Elemental Assault is on the plans but not until higher level when He has more duration to make it worthwhile.
My first thoughts were to take a combat maneuver chain live. With the high crit range of the falchion the maneuver strike feats seem to be a good choice. Right now I am looking at either the sunder chain or the bull rush chain. Bellow is the basic build
1st level Paladin with an Oath of Vengeance.
STR 18 (+2 Racial)
DEX 13
CON 14
INT 10 (-2 Racial)
WIS 10
CHA 16 (+2 Racial)
Feat Power Attack
All Pathfinder books are able to be used, but no third party or 3.5.
selective channel?
selective channel?
Since the Oath of Vengeance gives up Channel Energy for extra Smite Evil that does not work.
Have you considered ranged?
I will have ranged weapons but will not be concentrating on them. I will probably be the main front line fighter of the group. Also with only a 13 DEX ranged does not work as well.
Fearless Aura is really good once you can get it. I think there is also some feat that increases your Lay on Hands on anyone that doesn't need a mercy. I don't have my books with me though, so I don't remember what it is called.
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Have you seen Fey Foundling? I can only be taken at 1st level but it's an awesome feat for Paladins. You suffer +1 extra damage from cold iron weapons, but whenever you get healed, you recover +2 extra HP per die rolled. It's pretty amazing for Paladins, thanks to Lay on Hands.
Greater Mercy synergizes pretty well with it, as it gives you an extra die on Lay on Hands if you don't have any condition your LoH can cure.
Check out Word of Healing and Divine Interference too. They can save your party's life (which consequently means saving your own)
For a more ofensive build, Adept Champion can make a Lore Warden jealous.
For traits, I recommend Reactionary (+2 to Initiative) and Magical Knack (+2 caster levels. Particullary good for Paladins and Ranger, but I think it's not allowed in PFS games).
Focused Mind could be useful too, but the hardest concentration check you gotta make is for 4th-level spells, so it might just be overkill.
If you're going Power Attack, Furious Focus is almost necessary
Well... if you're looking for increased survivability, have you considered going with style feats?
If you throw 3 ranks into Acrobatics and pick up Crane Style.
* Improved Unarmed Strike - doesn't help much
* Dodge - +1 AC helps
* Fighting Defensively - Without Crane Style, this is -4 attack for +2 Dodge. With 3 ranks in Acrobatics, it goes to +3 dodge.
* Crane Style - Penalty for Fighting Defensively is now only -2
* Crane Wing - Deflect one attack that will hit you per round
* Crane Riposte - Penalty for Fighting Defensively is now only -1 and you can take an AoO against a target that hits you
So it's a several feat investment, but makes for an interesting option.
Have you decided which Divine Bond option you want, mount or weapon?
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Here's my suggestion:
1 Power Attack
3 Furious Focus
5 Fey Foundling
7 Incremental Elemental Assault
9 Improved Critical (Falchion)
Have you seen Fey Foundling? I can only be taken at 1st level but it's an awesome feat for Paladins. You suffer +1 extra damage from cold iron weapons, but whenever you get healed, you recover +2 extra HP per die rolled. It's pretty amazing for Paladins, thanks to Lay on Hands.
Greater Mercy synergizes pretty well with it, as it gives you an extra die on Lay on Hands if you don't have any condition your LoH can cure.
Check out Word of Healing and Divine Interference too. They can save your party's life (which consequently means saving your own)
For a more ofensive build, Adept Champion can make a Lore Warden jealous.
For traits, I recommend Reactionary (+2 to Initiative) and Magical Knack (+2 caster levels. Particullary good for Paladins and Ranger, but I think it's not allowed in PFS games).
Focused Mind could be useful too, but the hardest concentration check you gotta make is for 4th-level spells, so it might just be overkill.
I agree with Lemmy.
Have you decided which Divine Bond option you want, mount or weapon?
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Here's my suggestion:
1 Power Attack
3 Furious Focus
5 Fey Foundling
7 Incremental Elemental Assault
9 Improved Critical (Falchion)
Fey Foundling must be taken at level 1. Furious Focus is nice and everything but hardly necessary at lower levels.
I really suggest taking Fey Foundling, it drastically increases your LoH healing on yourself and any other healing as well.
Here's my suggestion:
1 Power Attack
3 Furious Focus
5 Fey Foundling
7 Incremental Elemental Assault
9 Improved Critical (Falchion)
Fey foundling can only be taken at 1st level. So he'd have to switch Power Attack/Fey Foundling.
Furious Focus is awesome, but IMO, not completely necessary for a character with Full BAB + High Strength + Smite Evil + Divine Bond.
For a Intimidate based build, a trait that gives Intimidate as a class skill (like "Bully", although it's fluff may not fit a paladin), plus Power Attack, Intimidating Prowess and Cornugon Smash can be very effective for Paladins. It fits the fluff for Oath of Vengeance Paladins pretty well too.
I'd go
1- Fey Foundling
3- Power Attack
5- Word of Healing/Greater Mercy
7- Whatever you want. Craft Wondrous Items is a solid choice too.
Thanks for the advice.
I already have the Reactionary and Magical Knack Feats. Great minds think alike.
We will probably have a Cleric, Druid, and a Bard in the party so healing is not a big deal. Also my lay on hands will be used for extra Smite Evil for the most part. Not to say I am never going to use them but I will be far from the primary healer of the group.
I will be taking Divine Bond as the weapon and probably using it for Keen most of the time. For survivability I am mainly looking to avoid things that lower my AC as I will not be using a shield.
The Adept Champion looks good but first I would need a Improved Combat Maneuver or I will be provoking attacks of opportunity left and right.
Corugon Smash looks good but I will probably not have the skill points to get 6 levels in Intimidate. The background of the character requires a decent diplomacy as he will be kind of the party peace keeper.
What Combat Maneuver do you think would work well. Furious focus will probably be taken later when the penalty to hit is more significant. At 3rd level it is only still -1 and does not go up to -3 until 8th level.
Incremental assault is one of the feats I will be taking but not at low level.
Toughness is always useful and i really suggest fey foundling, yes i know that you will be trading LoH uses for extra smites but still i think that you find yourself in need of healing yourself while in combat with a swift action quite often.
Extra lay on hands is also a choice.
Critical focus and improved critical when you qualify.
I see. Well, Radiant Charge can be a pretty devastating attack, but it does spend all your LoH uses.
I still strongly suggest get Fey Foundling, as your LoH is one of the few healing options that are actually effective in combat (you can heal yourself as a swift action that does not provoke AoO, IIRC)
Blind Fight is always a solid feat. Antagonize is awesome, even after errata. But many GMs ban it. If yours is one, argue that the Diplomacy option (the one you'll be using most, as you said you're focusing on that skill) is not nearly as broken.
And, of course, there is Eldritch Heritage. It's a great line of feats and it only becomes better due to your Charisma. The Draconic bloodline can do wonders for melee warriors (And Skill Focus (Perceptions) is not a bad prerequisite to meet). The Orc bloodline is not bad either.
Critical feats are awesome, but it'll take a while before you qualify for them.
Lemmy is right on the eldritch heritage, but if you decide to go there i suggest you not to go for draconic but for orc or abyssal.
For an Oath of Vengeance Paladin, Extra Lay on Hands is the best feat you can find... the ability to self-heal as a swift action is arguably one of the most powerful abilities in the game, but to your intent the feat also grants an extra Smite every day for each one you take.
For an offensive powerhouse my Oath of Vengeance Paladin also took the Eldritch Heritage feat line for the Orcish Bloodline. long term he gains +12 to Strength, +4 to Constitution, the ability to assume Large size with reach among other things.
If your GM allows the trait Opportunistic Gambler, you also gain the ability to apply Touch of Rage to yourself which is basically broken.
Another Oath of Vengeance Paladin I've been experimenting with since the new ARG came out is an Elven Paladin who's concept is to maximize the use of Lay on Hands ability as swift in-combat healing, condition removal and to fuel as many Smites as the situation may warrant. These are his feats:
Feats:
1st Fey Foundling
3rd Power Attack
5th Point Blank Shot
7th Rapid Shot
9th Greater Mercy
11th Extra Lay on Hands
13th Extra Lay on Hands
15th Ultimate Mercy
17th Extra Lay on Hands
19th Extra Lay on Hands
He's effective at range and in melee and uses the Elven Paladin favored class option. At 10th level he can self-heal for 6d6+17 hit points as a swift action 9 times a day - with high AC, massively elevated saves and a couple of Heroic Defiance spells, he's basically unkillable. At 20th level he would be able to self-heal 98 hit points as a swift action 26 times a day if he so chose, or 90 hit points AND remove a variety of conditions at the same time. I'm planning on using him in an upcoming Rise of the Runelords campaign.
Ultimate Mercy combined with a Runeforged (Jealous) weapon is fun (though Inevitables may get on your ass). You don't suffer the personality problems either, as the negative level absorption applies when you carry the weapon but the personality thing only applies when you wield it.
It's currently 3.5, but as long as they don't change in in the Anniversary Edition, it won't for long.
Kicking it around, I may go with a Human option instead:
Human 20th level Paladin (Oathsworn - Oath of Vengeance)
Attributes:
STR - 14
INT - 10
WIS - 10
DEX - 14
CON - 14
CHA - 16 (+2 at 1st, +1 at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th)
Traits:
Resilient (+1 Fortitude saves)
Indomitable Faith (+1 Will saves)
Feats:
1st Fey Foundling
1st Power Attack
3rd Cleave
5th Point Blank Shot
7th Rapid Shot
9th Extra Lay on Hands
11th Extra Lay on Hands
13th Greater Mercy
15th Ultimate Mercy
17th Extra Lay on Hands
19th Extra Lay on Hands
Skills:
Diplomacy* 1/level
Knowledge: Religion* 1/level
Ride* 1/even level
Handle Animal* 1/odd level
Equipment:
Full Plate, Greatsword, Longbow
Lemmy is right on the eldritch heritage, but if you decide to go there i suggest you not to go for draconic but for orc or abyssal.
Ah... Yeah, abyssal is pretty good thanks to the eventual +6 Strength bonus. But between it and Draconic, it's a tough choice. They both get claws, so whatever. Draconic, however gets energy resistance 10 + Natural armor (which stacks with AC from items) and eventually at-will flight. Besides, Skill Focus (Perception) is usually much more useful than Skill Focus (Knowledge(Planes)).
unsanctioned knowledge
but I forget which archtype allows casting
I don't think you need an archetype for that feat.
I had completelly forgotten about it. The only thing that keeps me from really liking it is the 13 Int Requirement. Paladins are M.A.D. enough.
I am currently playing a vanilla human in the last chapter of RotRL. This build is great, however I might really suggest swapping cleave for furious focus. There are some heavy hitters that have ludicrous ACs in the campaign. Also, I would really recommend a lucerne hammer instead of a great sword for the reach. Reach is amazing for the middle three books.
Also, if you really want some insane offense, go halfling pally with risky striker.
I tend to think that you would be correct on using a reach weapon, which in turn all but begs for Combat Reflexes to be shoe-horned in there somewhere. The character was originally designed as an elf and intended to take the Elven Curve Blade, and the switch to human just reflexively made that a Greatsword. In truth, I kind of like the idea of a reach weapon in the hands of a female melee character.
Truth be told, I've always found an attack at full BAB to be pretty much an auto-hit in the middling to high levels which is why I rarely bother with Furious Focus - especially with so many opportunities to use Smite adding to my attack roll.
So something like this then, using a reach weapon?
Feats:
1st Fey Foundling
1st Power Attack
3rd Point Blank Shot
5th Rapid Shot
7th Combat Reflexes
9th Extra Lay on Hands
11th Extra Lay on Hands
13th Extra Lay on Hands
15th Extra Lay on Hands
17th Greater Mercy
19th Ultimate Mercy
Thanks for the advice.
I already have the Reactionary and Magical Knack Feats. Great minds think alike.
We will probably have a Cleric, Druid, and a Bard in the party so healing is not a big deal. Also my lay on hands will be used for extra Smite Evil for the most part. Not to say I am never going to use them but I will be far from the primary healer of the group.
I will be taking Divine Bond as the weapon and probably using it for Keen most of the time. For survivability I am mainly looking to avoid things that lower my AC as I will not be using a shield.
The Adept Champion looks good but first I would need a Improved Combat Maneuver or I will be provoking attacks of opportunity left and right.
Corugon Smash looks good but I will probably not have the skill points to get 6 levels in Intimidate. The background of the character requires a decent diplomacy as he will be kind of the party peace keeper.
What Combat Maneuver do you think would work well. Furious focus will probably be taken later when the penalty to hit is more significant. At 3rd level it is only still -1 and does not go up to -3 until 8th level.
Incremental assault is one of the feats I will be taking but not at low level.
But man, that's even more healing from your cleric making the feat even more effective. Trust me man, you will have a few extra lay on hands to make use of fey foundling.
I decided to go with the Sunder and Cornugun Smash lines. so here is what I have planed. Changed out Magical Knack for Bully.
1st Power attack
3rd Improved Sunder
5th Incremental Elemental Assault
7th Cornugun Smash
9th Sundering Strike
11th Improved Critical (Falchion)
I plan to be using an Adamantine Falchion to help sundering thing. This will give me a 15-20 Crit range and when I get a critical hit it will destroy my opponents weapon and more than likely cause him to be shaken for a couple of rounds.
The fey foundling and extra healing do not really fit the background. The setting is more Arabian knights than European. The Eldritch Heritage also does not fit unless I was taking Elemental. He is Suli so already has Jan blood, having draconic or orc blood makes him seem like a mongrel man.
Have you considered ranged?
probably not his/her best option with a 13 dex compared to the 18 strength. Power Attack?
Consider getting Intimidating Prowess, then, adding your Str modifier IN ADDITION to your Cha modifier will make you scary enough to star your own horror movie!
at 5th level you could have
5 (ranks) +3 (class skill) +4 (Str) +3 (Cha) +1 (trait) for a +16. Maybe more, thanks to situational bonus (you just hit the guy with Power Attack! I'd say that is at least a +2 to Intimidate)
Sunder is a solid combat maneuver, but be careful not to destroy your own loot.
Extra Traits seems particullary useful now, you can get Magical Knack back and make UMD or Perception a class skill.