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Actually, Ranger/Rogue makes an excellent Horizon Walker, mostly thanks to the Rogue Talent: Favored Terrain. After that, you can spend feats taking the Extra Rogue Talent feat in order to gain more Favored Terrains until, eventually, through the combination of Horizon Walker, Ranger, and your extra feats, all terrains are favored, granting you at minimum a +2 bonus to a single favored terrain, and much higher bonuses to all the others.
Combine with the really cool spell-like abilities of the Horizon Walker, and you truly do have a character who can function well in ANY terrain.
Oh, and 5 levels in the Warden archetype allows you to add all your favored terrain bonuses to your allies, AND lets you roll twice with several skills in favored terrains. Pretty nifty, if you ask me.
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Well, remember that the Terrain Bonus applies to initiative as well, which is actually a pretty cool thing.
In addition, most GM's tend to set their adventures in relatively few locations, making Favored Terrain generally much easier to select than, say, Favored Enemies.
The thing is, most Horizon Walkers will be custom made for a specific game. You know you'll be playing primarily in the Lands of the Linnorm Kings? Go cold terrain, and you're probably set for the rest of the game.
If you're looking for general builds, you probably aren't going to find any. However, if you build a Horizon Walker around, say, Two-Handed weapons, you can absolutely provide a viable prescence in combat, even if not in your Favored (or rather, Dominance) Terrain.
Plus, some of those spell like abilities are just REALLY good. I mean, look at Astral Plane dominance: +1 to attacks and damage against ALL outsiders, plus Dimension Door several times per day on a mostly martial character? Sweet.
Aligned Plane? Auto-bypass damage reduction, which is NICE. Mountain? DR 2/Adamantine. Swamp & Earth Plane? TREMORSENSE.
These are all benefits that are not to be taken lightly. He's not exactly an offensive juggernaut in non-dominance terrain, but he's still got a bunch of tricks up his sleeve.
did you really not see terrain dominance?
I mean choose urban, and you've got the perfect ruler, watchman, whatever that is in the city and handles civilized people.
also rogue is excellent as Davor said.
Of course this is a 2 trick pony, with it's 2 terrain dominances, but hell, that trick is good.
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did you really not see terrain dominance?
I mean choose urban, and you've got the perfect ruler, watchman, whatever that is in the city and handles civilized people.
also rogue is excellent as Davor said.Of course this is a 2 trick pony, with it's 2 terrain dominances, but hell, that trick is good.
You get 3 Terrain Dominance choices (3/6/9).
the problem is you can really push just one favored terrain, if you split it to two, it's still allright, but 3 choices is a but much to spread your modifier.
Favored terrain gives +2 to only one terrain you've already selected, not all of them (as I thought for a while).
A rogue/horizon walker who ups 3 terrains simultaniously is probably not much better than a good fighter even in those terrains, and seriously weak in the rest.
There are other benefits to the prestige class as well. Here are a few of the sweet spots that I found.
1) Desert terrain dominance gives you immunity to fatigue for 3 levels of PrC. The 2 other main ways of getting this is 5 levels of oracle or 5 levels of monk (martial artist). This is the smallest level dip you can go for a barbarian to get rage cycling. This is my go to for attempting ragecycling.
2) Plane of earth, mountain mastery gives you damage reduction 3/adamantine. This is for 3 levels and can be quite good if stacking it with say an invulnerable rager.
3) Plane of fire and desert can allow you to get up to 30 fire resistance depending on how deep you go. Reminds me of an alchemist I built that sets himself on fire to gain bonus damage, good times.
4) Plane of air grants you a fly speed of 60 for quite a few minutes a day. Fly is generally very good to have.
5) A 3 level dip into the astral plain can give any character 5 or 6 uses of dimensional gate. Add this to dimensional agility or even dimensional charge and you got a very mobile character or the ability to charge that sorcerer in the back on turn 1 to take out a main threat early. Great escape mechanism. Try quickening it with the quicken sla monster feat. Good times.
If your gm allows the old Horizon walker build from Here then you can actually gain the ability to use dimension door every 1d4 rounds. The rest of the class is weaker than this edition and it requires a 6 level investment but this combined with the dimensional agility tree means you can move around at inhuman speeds and go 'anywhere'. I built a minitoar with this once, it was by far my favorite character.
This is just a few of the ideas you can go, and as a 3 level dip, the uses are incredibly varied. I honestly have never taken this class to level 10, but I imagine someone else has and had good uses out of it? Lastly the concept of the horizon walker is probably my favorite. Same with the new wanderer class for humans, but thats just because I can relate so well to it.
Edit: the old Horizon walker class I posted above gave you Fatigue immunity as a 1 level dip. If you were allowed to use it, it would be the ultimate ragecycler.
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the problem is you can really push just one favored terrain, if you split it to two, it's still allright, but 3 choices is a but much to spread your modifier.
Favored terrain gives +2 to only one terrain you've already selected, not all of them (as I thought for a while).
A rogue/horizon walker who ups 3 terrains simultaniously is probably not much better than a good fighter even in those terrains, and seriously weak in the rest.
Ok, you're looking at it wrong.
the uber build that is being referred to hinges around the stacking of the Ranger favored terrain and the rogue terrain mastery ability.First the
A rogue can take this ability multiple times, each time applying it to a new terrain, and granting all other favored terrains a +2 increase to the favored terrain bonus.
With this feat every time you take it you get another favored terrain and ALL your other terrains get an additional +2. Take it 4 times and get a +10 to every other favored terrain you have.
Now this also stacks with the increase you get from leveling as a ranger and leveling as a horizon walker. Put it all together and you can easily have a +20 to hit/damage/init/perception/stealth & survival for 2 or more terrains and all creatures native to that terrain. Doesn't matter where you are if you are fighting something that is native to one of your terrains you get your bonuses against it.
Now to make it perfect pick up a ranger wand of Instant Enemy and use it (swift Action) and point it anything that's not native to your highest favored terrain. Now it is, use your highest bonus against it for the cost of a wand charge.
The idea with instant enemy is to pick a favored enemy that is native to a terrain you have dominance in. Since you treat them as your favored enemy for all purposes, you treat them as though they are native to that terrain, allowing you to use the higher bonus.
Combined with terrain bond and some planning, you can get this bonus on creatures from your selected terrain, creatures native to the terrain you're in, and anything you cast instant enemy on. While that isn't every enemy you'll face, it should be a fair number of them.
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@carn: You're absolutely right about instant enemy, but you're still looking at the small picture on Terrain Dominance (the Favored Enemy bonus).
The spell like abilities and resistances, damage reduction, etc. alone are fantastic. Treating native creatures as Favored Enemies is icing on the cake.
Sure, a pure ranger with Favored Enemy can dish out more damage with instant enemy, but a Ranger/Rogue with lots of Terrain Mastery rogue talents will be getting obscenely high stealth & initiative checks, not to mention the obvious advantages that come with the Spell-like abilities of the Horizon Walker. And, again, terrain choice all comes down to A) What you want as your terrain dominance, and B) The location of the campaign. I mean, just look at the Paizo adventure paths. Most of them take place in a similar location throughout the entirety of the path. Most DMs, unless playing a special, high-travel, multiplanar campaign, will probably limit the setting to a couple of environments, which is a perfect place for the Horizon Walker to shine.
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The idea with instant enemy is to pick a favored enemy that is native to a terrain you have dominance in. Since you treat them as your favored enemy for all purposes, you treat them as though they are native to that terrain, allowing you to use the higher bonus.
Combined with terrain bond and some planning, you can get this bonus on creatures from your selected terrain, creatures native to the terrain you're in, and anything you cast instant enemy on. While that isn't every enemy you'll face, it should be a fair number of them.
Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner.
Here is an example of how it works, lets say our character is a ranger 8/rogue 2/terrain Walker 10 facing off against a dragon in the middle of the woods.
Our character has favored enemy, Human (+4) and Favored Terrain, Urban (+20). We point our wand of instant enemy at the Dragon and declare it Human. We could either get a +4 from favored enemy OR since humans are native to Urban Terrain get the +20 to hit, damage and init OR we can cast Charm person on it since it is now considered a human for all purposes and our terrain dominance lets us cast charm person on humans.
With only the slightest amount of planning you can devastate anything that gets in your way.
So help me out here. It seems to me that the Instant Enemy/Terrain Dominance thing seems to only work with Human/Urban combo, and that's only because there is the assumption that Humans are native to Urban (I've never found a paizo printed human with an Ecology block so I'm unsure if this is legit.) If you were to do this with, say Animal and had Dominance in Forests, and targeted the same dragon, how would you determine what terrain the dragon was now "native" to? There are animals for every single material plane terrain type.
So does this only work with specific human/urban or other carefully chosen specific types (such as Favored Enemy [Demon]/ Dominance [Abyss])?
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So help me out here. It seems to me that the Instant Enemy/Terrain Dominance thing seems to only work with Human/Urban combo, and that's only because there is the assumption that Humans are native to Urban (I've never found a paizo printed human with an Ecology block so I'm unsure if this is legit.) If you were to do this with, say Animal and had Dominance in Forests, and targeted the same dragon, how would you determine what terrain the dragon was now "native" to? There are animals for every single material plane terrain type.
So does this only work with specific human/urban or other carefully chosen specific types (such as Favored Enemy [Demon]/ Dominance [Abyss])?
It doesn't matter where you are or what the creature is or even if you actually have the favored enemy ability the spell itself is what's important.
School enchantment; Level ranger 3
CASTING
Casting Time 1 swift action
Components V, S
EFFECT
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets one creature that is not your favored enemy.
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
DESCRIPTION
With this spell you designate the target as your favored enemy for the remainder of its duration. Select one of your favored enemy types. For the duration of the spell, you treat the target as if it were that type of favored enemy for all purposes.
As you can see the spell targets a creature that is NOT one of your favored enemies (so the fewer actual Favored enemies you have the better) and from that point on it is treated in all ways as if it where one of your favored enemies INCLUDING NATIVE TERRAIN.
Now whether you do or do not actually have the favored enemy ability you are now dealing with the Horizon Walker Ability and it changes things a bit.
This gives you a superior favored enemy ability that overlaps with any existing favored enemy ability. This one expands it so that any creature that is native to that terrain is now considered your favored enemy.
Now what this means is any creature you meet who isn't native to one of your Dominate Favored Terrains you hit with Instant Enemy and then pick any creature that IS native to that terrain. The spells target is now native to that terrain which kicks in your Terrain Dominance:Favored Enemy ability.
Then you kill it, easily.
Right, I get the gist of the idea, but the problem I'm running into is that the favored enemy types actually seem too *broad* for this to work effectively except in a few circumstances like I mentioned before.
For example:
I take Favored Enemy in Oozes at Ranger 1
I take Terrain Dominance in Underground at Horizon Walker 3
Now, taking your example, I suddenly find myself fighting a Red Dragon in the woods. I use Instant Enemy and name said dragon an Ooze. Here's where it breaks down: yes, MOST oozes are native to underground terrain, but not ALL oozes are (there's at least one, Verdurous Ooze, that is not). So what determines if this now Ooze dragon is treated as being native to Underground and being effected by my Dominance, or Plains (which is what the Verdurous Ooze is native too) and not being effected beyond my measly +2 to Oozes?
You could 3 lvl dip into HW(deserts) to get immunity to fatigue, which for a half orc invulnerable rager mean double DR every round.
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Right, I get the gist of the idea, but the problem I'm running into is that the favored enemy types actually seem too *broad* for this to work effectively except in a few circumstances like I mentioned before.
For example:
I take Favored Enemy in Oozes at Ranger 1
I take Terrain Dominance in Underground at Horizon Walker 3
Now, taking your example, I suddenly find myself fighting a Red Dragon in the woods. I use Instant Enemy and name said dragon an Ooze. Here's where it breaks down: yes, MOST oozes are native to underground terrain, but not ALL oozes are (there's at least one, Verdurous Ooze, that is not). So what determines if this now Ooze dragon is treated as being native to Underground and being effected by my Dominance, or Plains (which is what the Verdurous Ooze is native too) and not being effected beyond my measly +2 to Oozes?
So there's your mistake you do not say that it's an ooze, you say it's a Cold Ooze and treat it as such. This activates everything you have and is legal since the instant enemy spell states to select one of your favored enemy types and cold ooze is one of your types.
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Instant Enemy does not allow you to designate a sup-type. Ooze(cold) would be a subtype. I would assume is allows you to designate a subtype for types that have them but the spell doesn't even explicitly say that. If I assume the latter than it can be done (carefully and with much cheese) but it must be specific. If you don't assume the latter (thus going by raw) it can't be done at all.
So there's your mistake you do not say that it's an ooze, you say it's a Cold Ooze and treat it as such. This activates everything you have and is legal since the instant enemy spell states to select one of your favored enemy types and cold ooze is one of your types.
Except by RAW, Cold Ooze is not a Favored Enemy type. This is where I'm having the issue. None of the RAW valid Favored Enemy types are narrow enough that you will only find it in one terrain, except for perhaps human, but there has never been a generic human bestiary stat block to give us human "ecology." Even my Favored Enemy (Demon) example is technically not legal RAW as there is no option to select Demon from the Favored Enemies table, only Outsider(Evil).
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Instant Enemy does not allow you to designate a sup-type. Ooze(cold) would be a subtype. I would assume is allows you to designate a subtype for types that have them but the spell doesn't even explicitly say that. If I assume the latter than it can be done (carefully and with much cheese) but it must be specific. If you don't assume the latter (thus going by raw) it can't be done at all.
It is not Ooze(cold) it is cold ooze. That is the name of the creature, it's type is just Ooze. It's like saying Human (Keleshite) or Human (andoran), they are both of type Human and Favored Enemy (human). THERE is no mechanical difference between saying Ooze and Cold Ooze.
@Brotato, If you are really that worried about it then you need to make sure that you are using the narrowest choice for favored enemy possible (Outsider, air) since those are by default native to the elemental plain of Air. Then you stack your bonuses for that terrain.
Truth be told unless you have a GM who is focused on trying to deny you your bonus this isn't necessary but if you want to be 100% sure to always get your bonus this will work.
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Instant Enemy does not allow you to designate a sup-type. Ooze(cold) would be a subtype. I would assume is allows you to designate a subtype for types that have them but the spell doesn't even explicitly say that. If I assume the latter than it can be done (carefully and with much cheese) but it must be specific. If you don't assume the latter (thus going by raw) it can't be done at all.It is not Ooze(cold) it is cold ooze. That is the name of the creature, it's type is just Ooze. It's like saying Human (Keleshite) or Human (andoran), they are both of type Human and Favored Enemy (human). THERE is no mechanical difference between saying Ooze and Cold Ooze.
@Brotato, If you are really that worried about it then you need to make sure that you are using the narrowest choice for favored enemy possible (Outsider, air) since those are by default native to the elemental plain of Air. Then you stack your bonuses for that terrain.
Truth be told unless you have a GM who is focused on trying to deny you your bonus this isn't necessary but if you want to be 100% sure to always get your bonus this will work.
The spell does not let you let you change the target monster to a specific monster. It changes the Monsters TYPE. Type is a specific mechanical device used in pathfinder. Using the spell means you say that Demon is an Animal instead of an outsider so you get your Bonus. It does not say that Yeth Hound is a Dog.
There IS a mechanical difference between saying that a Yeth Hound is a Ooze and a Cold Ooze. Namely the power you are using is based on it. Most types have no ecology or native terrain while most creatures do.That being said, If you chose Outsider: air and Plane of Air, along with all the rogue, ranger and horizon walker stuff, I can't think of a reason it wouldn't work by RAW... Except that is doesn't allow you to choose a subtype (which I won't worry about because I think it is implied).
{Edit: added a little and changed a little}
Nitpick: You CAN manage immunity to fatigue with one level of Oracle, if you go Barbarian 8/Oracle 1. (Non-Oracle levels count for half when figuring Oracle's Curse benefits.)
What? Really? Screw the nitpick, if this is true, thats an awesome nugget of information! I gotta check that out, BRB!
Thanks!
Nitpick: You CAN manage immunity to fatigue with one level of Oracle, if you go Barbarian 8/Oracle 1. (Non-Oracle levels count for half when figuring Oracle's Curse benefits.)What? Really? Screw the nitpick, if this is true, thats an awesome nugget of information! I gotta check that out, BRB!
Thanks!
Lame curse. At 5 Oracle levels, you get fatigue immunity. BUT! Your non-oracle levels count at half-rate for curse progression, so [other class] 8 / Oracle 1 counts as a level 5 oracle.
Comparatively though I think I'd rather spend the 3 levels and get 2 favored terrains, immunity to fatigue and exhaustion, and fire resistance 10, while still pulling down a full BAB and no loss of speed for my barbarian
You also waste a feat on Endurance.
I'd rather only lose 1 level of Barbarian progression.
Also, oracle 1 means you can now use ALL cleric wands, and have decent odds of using low level cleric scrolls.
All the humanoid (aquatic) creatures I can find are native to Water terrains.
Even so, I wouldn't let this work. Native terrain isn't linked to creature types and subtypes, so an ability that lets you treat the creature as a specific type does not also let you treat that creature as from a specific terrain.
Why would a barbarian be concerned with wand and scroll usage? I mean sure great an extra trick in my bag but I'm a barbarian, generally a one trick pony there, maybe two if you demoralizing.
Ki mystic 6 / HW 3 astral plane dovetails nicely into the dimensional chain of feats.
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All the humanoid (aquatic) creatures I can find are native to Water terrains.
Even so, I wouldn't let this work. Native terrain isn't linked to creature types and subtypes, so an ability that lets you treat the creature as a specific type does not also let you treat that creature as from a specific terrain.
You can do that, however from the text of the spell it does specifically state it is treated as that type for ALL PURPOSES including terrain.