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Personally I would say yes, I think a single day job roll (to represent downtime until the next scenario) should be allowed ... not that it does my PCs any good ... I can never get above 10gp even with a +13 to my roll. ;)
I can't see any reason for it to be a triple value day job if day job rolls after modules were allowed.
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No, but now you just confirmed that modules are even larger waste of time than I thought they were. Now I'll keep avoiding them like filth fever :POK, this I find to be an odd statement. In what ways are modules a "waste of time" compared to scenarios?
Tarma probably feels that way because you can only get 4 PP for playing a module, rather than the potential 6 for three scenarios.
XP-wise, GP-wise, even, for the most part, access-wise, there is little to make modules better or worse than 3 scenarios.
And, for some people, requiring the definite "have to be there" for all the sessions might be a turn-off, as well.
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No, but now you just confirmed that modules are even larger waste of time than I thought they were.I take it that you play for the advancement and not the enjoyment of each module?I have actually been involved in two modules, and I have not enjoyed either one.
I'm all for enjoying a module/scenario, but I don't think it should hamper your progress either.
I'm with TOZ on this one. Aside for losing a potential 2PP (not guaranteed 2PP ... after all, it is all too possible to fail a faction mission), I can't see how it would hamper your progress.
On another note, the two modules you ran through, was it the module itself or the way it was run that made it less enjoyable?
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do not forget that modules do have the advantage of providing 3 xp in the same relative amount of real-life time of two scenarios' 2xp. (8-10 hours)
I played my first sanctioned module this weekend actually, and I have to say I enjoyed it quite a bit (No Response from Deepmar). Not sure if I would qualify it as "better" or "worse" than scenarios.
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It was definitely the modules themselves. They both seem to have pacing issues, making them very erratic.
May I ask which modules you ran through? I'm always up for getting reviews before buying a module.
As for the progression: Let's assume that you're playing season 3 or 4 scenarios. Right off the bat, you get 3 prestige just for completing the scenarios, without faction missions. If you get 2 out of your 3 faction missions you've already got more prestige than a module, and that's a pretty generous assumption. If you take a faction that's got easy missions, you're already ahead.
The fame hit has already hurt one of my characters, as I had to wait till I hit level 3 in order to purchase gear that was desperately needed for him in order to reach the fame requirement.
Yeah, the fame thing could be an issue. Of course, if you are playing in a faction which has rough missions, or get missions for which you and your group is not properly skilled, then you could be in the same boat, or a slightly worse one.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Modules run more like campaigns than scenarios. They take a lot more prep time and have more challenges, and a lot more story, but in the end I think that a well prepared module is a great experience for everyone involved. Here a few reasons I like modules.
Reason 1 to love modules: awesome boons / unique items (check out Realm of the Fellknight Queen or the Ruby Phoenix Tournament). You get access to some sweet module-centered boons, and some really cool wondrous items that don't exist anywhere but on that module sheet.
Reason 2 to love modules: the BBEG in any given module is by default a challenge. They're designed with the PCs having leveled up once or twice since the start of the module in mind, and since you can't do this in PFS, it makes the fights way more challenging (again, see RotFQ).
Reason 3 to love modules: the stories can be soooo good; you end up getting more in depth character development and relationships with NPCs. Maybe I'm just a sucker for a good story, but this is probably the biggest reason for me. Heck, I've even gotten a player so involved in the story that he wed a nameless townsfolk that we gave depth and character to. I've had a player give a heroic, Lord of the Rings style speech to inspire an army of forest creatures to march against their oppressive fey-overlord. These are things that you can't delve to far into with scenarios because of the time crunch, but are things that I feel you should be encouraged to do with modules.
All that said, if those selling points are enough to convince you to try a module, then you don't have to (although they're fun, and I think you should). Their adaption to PFS was mainly implemented to give PFS addicts another outlet, since only two new scenarios are released every month. Because of this, they're far from perfect for PFS, and definitely have an different feel.
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I'm with TOZ on this one. Aside for losing a potential 2PP (not guaranteed 2PP ... after all, it is all too possible to fail a faction mission), I can't see how it would hamper your progress.
On another note, the two modules you ran through, was it the module itself or the way it was run that made it less enjoyable?
It was definitely the modules themselves. They both seem to have pacing issues, making them very erratic.
As for the progression: Let's assume that you're playing season 3 or 4 scenarios. Right off the bat, you get 3 prestige just for completing the scenarios, without faction missions. If you get 2 out of your 3 faction missions you've already got more prestige than a module, and that's a pretty generous assumption. If you take a faction that's got easy missions, you're already ahead.
The fame hit has already hurt one of my characters, as I had to wait till I hit level 3 in order to purchase gear that was desperately needed for him in order to reach the fame requirement.
I dunno. I have gone through a scenario, with fairly good PCs in addition to my own, and wound up with 1 XP, 0 PP, 0 GP. Not to mention the expense of getting my PC raised and restored. :(
I have, as a GM, seen parties fleeing the final encounter in Season 2 modules.
So, for Season 3 & 4 scenarios, you have to hope you complete the scenario to get that "freebie" PP. Then you have to figure out what your faction mission is, and hope to recognize when you can complete it, in order to receive the other PP.
Don't even add in that, if you have gone slow track, you have to get both PP to get the 1 PP possible per scenario....
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I used to build characters with a Day Job in mind. Now that I have a level 5 and a level 3 character, I've realized that Day Jobs can be super useful at level 1, at level 2 they're kind of nice, but by level 4 they're just kind of wasteful as far as skill points go.
The gold you can get for a Day Job is really just a drop in the bucket - if you're lucky, you might get a level 1 or 2 scroll, or a level 1 potion from your Day Job money, but that's about it. By level 4 or 5, that might not be so useful, or if it is, it's cheap enough that you don't notice spending the gold from the chronicle on it.
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I used to build characters with a Day Job in mind. Now that I have a level 5 and a level 3 character, I've realized that Day Jobs can be super useful at level 1, at level 2 they're kind of nice, but by level 4 they're just kind of wasteful as far as skill points go.
The gold you can get for a Day Job is really just a drop in the bucket - if you're lucky, you might get a level 1 or 2 scroll, or a level 1 potion from your Day Job money, but that's about it. By level 4 or 5, that might not be so useful, or if it is, it's cheap enough that you don't notice spending the gold from the chronicle on it.
Bards FTW!
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I don't know about them being useless. I just had a level 5 wizard get 75 gp on his day job roll. That's 3 1st level scrolls. Those 3 scrolls could come in very handy at a later date but I wouldn't have bought them without that day job roll...
Perhaps - but how many skill ranks did you need to invest to get that 75 gp? Alternatively, how many PP did you spend so that you could use a skill that isn't Profession, Craft, or Perform?
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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The real coup is to have your profession/craft be something that has more than just a day job use.
My monk has used his Profession (brewer, tea) in several scenarios
- Darkest Vengeance: offered to assist in the making of drinks for dinner, discovered the sleeping poison.
- Feast of Ravenmoor: used tea to settle the nerves of a village cultist, which made her more pliable for casual questioning
- First Steps: made some tea while negotiating at the bar, noticed something was off, and threw it in the face of the merfolk leader(dirty trick) to start the fight.
I wouldn't have had half as much fun and my monk wouldn't have been nearly as awesome if he hadn't learned how to brew tea.
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Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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Currently 5 ranks. And it will probably never do anything in a scenario. Craft: Chandler. Yeah, I make candles. But it gives my fire elementalist fuel for personal quirks. He likes to burn things, whenever he rests, he has a candle burning. In the 12 scenarios I've played him in, I've made 660 gp from his day job rolls. That's 55 gp a scenario. Sure its not for everyone but it does help to explain what they're doing between scenarios, and supplies bribing money or cheap scrolls/potions. ;)
One of my player's currently has a Sczarni Thug specializing in non-lethal damage and intimidation. He was excited to learn about the Caravan vanity that would allow him to use his focus to flesh out his character and make him some money at the same time. Its also going to be used in an upcoming scenario I'm running for them.
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Rogues FTW!FIFY ;)
No, I think Kyle really meant bards, since bards can raise a dayjob skill (Perform) while getting two other skills for free (via Versatile Performance). Rogues certainly have enough points to buy a dayjob, but they don't get "buy a dayjob, get two highly useful skills free" like bards do.
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No, I think Kyle really meant bards, since bards can raise a dayjob skill (Perform) while getting two other skills for free (via Versatile Performance). Rogues certainly have enough points to buy a dayjob, but they don't get "buy a dayjob, get two highly useful skills free" like bards do.Rogues FTW!FIFY ;)
Yep, but I meant rogues. Well at least my main PC ... Perform (Flute), Performance Artist Trait, etc. Set up mainly for character back story when I built her, but it has come in handy a couple of times. Now if I could just roll above single digits for my day job checks ...
Besides, rogues need some love as Sleight of Hand does not impart the ability to make a day job check inherently. ;)
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I don't know about them being useless. I just had a level 5 wizard get 75 gp on his day job roll. That's 3 1st level scrolls. Those 3 scrolls could come in very handy at a later date but I wouldn't have bought them without that day job roll...Perhaps - but how many skill ranks did you need to invest to get that 75 gp? Alternatively, how many PP did you spend so that you could use a skill that isn't Profession, Craft, or Perform?
Are you mad sir? I routinely get either 100 or 150GP every scenario from my day job roll and it's a great in game skill as well (Intimidate).
You wound us honorable caravan masters to no end by disparaging taking pride on hour jobs and applying even a modicum of effort to improve them.|
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I think it's safe to say that an average of over about 20 gp per mod is above norm. It's probably lower than that across Omaha. I give out a lot of 1s.
I'm with a few of the others and say there's a better place to put that skill point. I only have 1 character myself that bothered with the day job thing.
For the vast majority of characters who aren't going to focus on the roll, it just isn't worth it imho.
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Okay ... You know what? Can we stop the bashing already?
All this talk of how it is "wasted", "useless", or that there's "better place" or ways to put a skill point to use is downright rude. If you don't like it that way and want to play toward mechanical benefit, that's great fun, and you're welcome to it.
I, for one, enjoy building a believable character that has a life outside the Pathfinder Society that involves things he's learned which reflect his interests as an individual. There's nothing wrong with that. I am maxed out as a Silk and Carpet Weaver ... I have a shop, a caravan, and a mercantile ship, all paid for with Prestige.
I like my story. And there's nothing "wasted" about it.
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Okay ... You know what? Can we stop the bashing already?
All this talk of how it is "wasted", "useless", or that there's "better place" or ways to put a skill point to use is downright rude. If you don't like it that way and want to play toward mechanical benefit, that's great fun, and you're welcome to it.
I, for one, enjoy building a believable character that has a life outside the Pathfinder Society that involves things he's learned which reflect his interests as an individual. There's nothing wrong with that. I am maxed out as a Silk and Carpet Weaver ... I have a shop, a caravan, and a mercantile ship, all paid for with Prestige.I like my story. And there's nothing "wasted" about it.
I agree with this.
Bbauzh is an ex-slave and started his pathfinder career without a day job. But he wanted one. So every scenario he'd get into he'd ask what people's job was, and if they liked it. One guy was like, "I'm a bricklayer." I ask, "do you like it?" and the response was, "NO!"
Next guy, "What do you do?" and Cledwyn responds, "I'm a baker." "Do you like it?" "Yes, its great fun." "Can you teach me?" "Sure."
Now he's a sailor as well, but I digress.
That's 2 ranks he's used, and he's still extremely versatile skill-wise.
Clorrup on the other hand is an Alchemist, so craft Alchemy is naturally his day job, and it wasn't a waste to put skill points there.
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Okay ... You know what? Can we stop the bashing already?
All this talk of how it is "wasted", "useless", or that there's "better place" or ways to put a skill point to use is downright rude. If you don't like it that way and want to play toward mechanical benefit, that's great fun, and you're welcome to it.
I, for one, enjoy building a believable character that has a life outside the Pathfinder Society that involves things he's learned which reflect his interests as an individual. There's nothing wrong with that. I am maxed out as a Silk and Carpet Weaver ... I have a shop, a caravan, and a mercantile ship, all paid for with Prestige.I like my story. And there's nothing "wasted" about it.
Clearly you're playing this game wrong.
edit: FWIW, my bard has ranks in Profession (Archaeologist) even though I use Perform for my day jobs. :-)
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Okay ... You know what? Can we stop the bashing already?
All this talk of how it is "wasted", "useless", or that there's "better place" or ways to put a skill point to use is downright rude. If you don't like it that way and want to play toward mechanical benefit, that's great fun, and you're welcome to it.
I, for one, enjoy building a believable character that has a life outside the Pathfinder Society that involves things he's learned which reflect his interests as an individual. There's nothing wrong with that. I am maxed out as a Silk and Carpet Weaver ... I have a shop, a caravan, and a mercantile ship, all paid for with Prestige.I like my story. And there's nothing "wasted" about it.
I respect your opinion, which is why earlier I qualified my statement. I don't think it's necessarily wasting a point to put it where it might do for a day job, especially if that's where you want to put it for other, non-optimizer reasons.
I do think it's irrational to state that "playing modules is pointless because you don't get your day job roll." I perhaps went at this from the wrong tack, by saying that the money you can get from a Day Job doesn't amount to much in the grand scheme of things, and if that's what led to this thread of conversation, then I apologize.
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Okay ... You know what? Can we stop the bashing already?
All this talk of how it is "wasted", "useless", or that there's "better place" or ways to put a skill point to use is downright rude. If you don't like it that way and want to play toward mechanical benefit, that's great fun, and you're welcome to it.
I, for one, enjoy building a believable character that has a life outside the Pathfinder Society that involves things he's learned which reflect his interests as an individual. There's nothing wrong with that. I am maxed out as a Silk and Carpet Weaver ... I have a shop, a caravan, and a mercantile ship, all paid for with Prestige.I like my story. And there's nothing "wasted" about it.
I'm still looking for the bashing. If dicussing an opinion contrary to yours is bashing, I'd say that's basically all forums are then. This has been and hopefully continues to be a pleasant thread.
AKA, I think you are overreacting.
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Clint ... Thanks for sharing your opinion on the matter. I can see how you really don't think it's "bashing" per se. The way that I feel about it, it would've been more productive if others had said, for example, "I enjoy ensuring that my characters have the maximum possible chance to survive a scenario statistically, and so I devote many skill points to skills that can be used in combat.". .... Or some other statement of their opinion or preference.
Telling people that they are wasting skill points, or implying that their play style is wrong, or that they are making their character useless, or that they're doing it wrong is - in my opinion - bashing. They're entitled to have their opinion all they like, an freely discuss it on the boards. In fact, I often use the boards to communicate with people who like optimizing, to help me with my build ideas, since I'm not good at it.
That being said, I do think that it is rude to not share one's opinion, but rather be derisive towards someone else's idea of fun, and I do not thinks that it is over-reacting. You're right in that ther are far too many forums on the Internet where this does happen. But, I prefer to think that the Paizo boards are a little better than those.
And I would like to thank those that understand why that is. But, let's not derail the thread with talk of whose ideas of RP is better than others ... the OP is about Day Job rolls, let's all be polite enough to keep the discussion on-topic for those that arre interested in the OP.
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Telling people that they are wasting skill points, or implying that their play style is wrong, or that they are making their character useless, or that they're doing it wrong is - in my opinion - bashing.
I "waste" skill points all the time. I "waste" them on silly things like "profession (solider)" and "profession (cook)" (curiously with somebody who only got one skill point per level). I "waste" them by giving UMD to somebody with a +2 bonus (which I'll rarely if ever use). In terms of PFS survivability these really are essentially wasted points. However, the key is that they're my points to do with what I please though including "waste" them however I prefer, which is the point I think the you're making.
I think this is a matter of semantics which does not translate well over a typewritten medium. In this case, I don't think anybody's been rude at all, but it may be read that way if it's been taken that the underlying implication is that you're wrong (which I don't think is the case). Try to read "wasted" as "not optimal" and I think you'll find the conversational tone is very different.